 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-25 21:58
this is totally random.
In orchestras the violin sections are divided up pretty evenly divided.
If you look at most wind ensembles (i hate calling them bands) you will see that the best all on first and so forth. Anyone have a clue why bands would do it this way? quite honestly, if i was second chair in a WE I would rather sit principal second than just be a section member. what do you guys think about the way seating is done?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brandon
Date: 2003-05-25 22:28
As a player, I would rather play the first part over the second part. The second part to me seems to mostly be in the middle, or have a secondary melody, etc. The first part usually plays the melody. As far as sitting p. 2nd, there just are not that many solos for second part in a band setting. Before everyone jumps on that, I do realize that there are some exposed 2nd parts. I would think that a smart band director would evenly distribute the section. I have gone my entire academic life with the top players playing first; worst playing third. You would think that the band director would realize the benefits of this even distribution. But, I have seen that many band directors are idiots and can not distinguish good from bad anyway. Commonplace in the study hall period some call "band".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2003-05-26 00:28
I think that in an idea world, more even distribution would be more desirable. But it's important to remember that the 1st parts are generally the most challenging to keep in tune and very unforgiving of weak embouchures.
The desirability of solos is also an incentive, but shouldn't really be a factor outside the first couple of chairs. Personally, I don't see playing the melody as an enticement at all. Harmony and counterpoint are far more interesting roles to play IMO.
I have recently been moved to first in a couple of community groups where I have more or less led 2nd's or 3rd's. The best thing about it that I can relate is the quality of the players sitting next to me. Even if you're not the soloist, there is an incredible high in section work with first-rate players.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2003-05-26 01:49
Another thought is that most easy school band music is written with the parts having the 1st part for better players and 2nd and 3rd for progressively less "experienced" players. If the wind ensemble is playing higher quality music, it makes sense to have some good players in the 2nd and 3rd parts because a good composer/arranger would want those parts well represented.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 2003-05-26 02:51
When I was in high school, the directors that I had did spread the good players throughout the sections. The two top players were 1st & 2nd chair on 1st clarinet. The 3rd best player was 1st chair 2nd clarinet. The 4th best player was 1st chair 3rd clarinet. Then it jumped back up front. The fifth best player was 3rd chair first. The 6th best was 2nd chair second clarinet and so on.
It made for some interesting challenges if you wanted to try to move up. If that fifth best player wanted to move up to 1st or 2nd chair in the first clarinets, he had to challenge the players in order so he/she would have to drop back to a third part by beating the 4th best player and then move up to a second part by beating the 3rd best player before he/she could challenge the remaining 1st clarinets.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: glin
Date: 2003-05-26 03:18
Dee's experience is what I would like to see. In my experience, most bands have have done seating via order of auditions. While this covers most of the exposed 1st and 2nd parts, the 3rds could be left behind in the development curve without a good strong player to lean/learn from. I
I also agree with Allen Cole's remarks. When the music sounds so much better with good people around you, seating placement becomes less and less of an issue (IMHO - from an amateur point of view)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-05-26 09:50
In my experience, the best players should be on Eb and Bass - these are some of the toughest parts that can make or break a clarinet section, or even the entire band.
There's nothing better than having a reliable and in tune bass clarinet - because there's always something to work from, even the 'worst' and 'inexperienced' players in the 3rd section.
A good Eb player will lead the section, and, if the player has good intonation, will sound most impressive with the flutes and/or piccolo.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CJB
Date: 2003-05-26 13:52
In one of the community bands I play in I'm responsible for seating the clarinets. I always try to put some of the stronger players on the 2nd and 3rd parts so that the overall blend of the section is more balanced - I rotate players between parts after each concert so the better players on 3rd aren't there for long enough to get bored. The weaker players also benefit from the guidance the stronger players sitting next to them can give them.
I agree with Morrigan's comments that you need good players on Eb and bass. However I couldn't disagree more that a good Eb player will lead the section. Unless a passage is marked as a solo a good Eb player will blend with the section and add colour when doubling lines with flutes and/or piccolo.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ken
Date: 2003-05-26 18:49
RLMAO, Principal and the 1st desk are a breeze compared to doubling the melody on 3rd in unison or octaves with the saxophone section or lower brass. I've found over the years (in my circles), chair assignments and internal policy generally fell under three categories. 1) Politics. 2) Befuddlement. 3) "What do you care, you're getting paid!" Some conductors choose not to rotate their sections and assign chairs like orchestras. Skill and experience or offsetting strengths and weaknesses aren't factors, but seniority, cronyism and sheer idiocy often are. For me, it's never been an issue as I've always been too busy gig hopping, have other outlets and gigs.
On professionally arranged charts and transcriptions, I always preferred 2nd chair. Inner harmonies, voice leading, technical challenges through and around the break were far more satisfying. Sitting Principal/asst 1st has its glory and notoriety too but can be monotonous living in the upper register 90% of the time and constantly having to blend and split pitch between the front row and other Principals.
As for the above-mentioned role of the E-flat clarinet, IMHO it's viability and integrity (in concert band settings) is severely limited unless specifically written for (i.e. Candide, On the Town, Slava). And any eefer player who would try to lead the band in the groups I play for would discover business suddenly taking a turn for the worse. v/r Ken
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-05-27 00:14
I didn't mean lead like you're thinking - I was more thinking along the lines of a 'lead by example' kinda thing. Hope you understand the difference.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2003-05-27 06:43
I think that the problem in most school groups--certainly those in my area--is that competent players are in too short supply for good distribution. I spend my life trying to correct students who are playing clarinet with saxophone embouchures.
Under such circumstances, most band directors put their strongest players on the highest notes, and hope that the weaker ones will be drowned out by the french horns and saxophones whose parts they so often double.
Another disadvantage of sitting principal or second in a community group. You don't get to know the other players. When I played 2nd and 3rd parts, I often picked up band members as private students. A lot of chairhogs would do well to explore the good that can be done by sitting on lower parts--and you don't have to get magisterial. It's amazing what you can do by setting a good example and encouraging your neighbors to get decent mouthpieces, upgrade reed strength, etc. A little subtle encouragement can result in your standmate showing up one night with a new E11 or R13--and possibly even practicing it between rehearsals!
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Molliweide
Date: 2003-05-27 21:05
Our Community Band is first come first serve with part swapping encouraged. I always try to break into the clarinet section cause bass can be awful boring, but now I have a new horn and will be keeping my seat for awhile.
In college they placed by semester auditions. They would shuffle between the orchestra, concert and symphonic bands to balence experience with forced (non-primary instrument) doubling for the music majors. I would sit next to a awsome freshman one semester and the next be next to the 1st chair bassonist from the orchestra who is spending a semester on clarinet. My roomate rotated between percussion and bass clarinet within all three groups. You could audition for multiple instruments and they placed where they needed the voice.
My favorite semester was playing alto clarinet on the Holst Suite doubling the Eb.
They never actually posted a top to bottom list of players. The primary 2nd or 3rd players could have auditioned better than the 2nd first of the next higher group. They did do a good job of telling you why you where in the part you got. i.e. "you have a really nice tone and intonation in the throat tones and the director is doing piece X and we needed steady players on the 2nd part this semester" or "we want you to play Contrabass this semester because the tubas are a bit thin"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Cindy
Date: 2003-05-31 15:01
In our school we have three different bands, one for challenging music, one for people who are learning, and the "big band" where we play essential band music like Holst, etc. What we have done in the past is have people from the top band sit in with the epople in the lower band and help them. Also, for one concert we had the bands just seated like that, then in the next one we had the firsts from the lower band sit with the firsts from the higher band. This way, you had two stronger and two weaker on each part. Every clarinetist in the upper band is quite good, so each part was covered well and the beginner clarinets learned by example. I'm sorry if that's confusing, I got little sleep, but felt like adding my two cents to the post!
So many instruments to play........so little time to play them!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: abrogard
Date: 2003-06-01 12:19
What's that Allencole said about 'saxophone embouchures' , 'decent mouthpieces' and 'upgrade reed strength' ?
As an isolated, self taught, pretty poor player whose one real experience of playing was a few months with an army band (once a week), and with lots of current problems like high note trouble, clumsy fingering, poor phrasing etc., etc., etc., I'd like to know just how important he (and anyone else) considers these factors to be - particularly the 'saxophone embouchure', I've never heard of this and god knows what embouchure I use... perhaps this should be a new thread....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: allencole
Date: 2003-06-01 22:15
Hi Abrogard,
Here are a few thoughts on that subject.
"Saxophone Embouchure" - Many young clarinet players (and many older ones as well) tend to have to horn angled too high with respect to their heads, and use too much lower lip padding. Some were never taught the right way, but most frequently the players practice to seldom to produce the necessary muscle tone and endurance.
Actually, it may be unfair to term this a saxophone embouchure because I see a number of school kids whose clarinet embouchures would be too loose and bunched up even for the baritone sax.
Decent mouthpieces - Most clarinets don't come with a top quality mouthpiece in the box, and certainly not with one which has been fitted to the needs of the player. Mismatching is not th only problem there. There is also a question of quality control in the mouthpieces.
Upgraded reed strength - Often, the above two factors lead to the use of excessively soft and pliant reeds. These reeds can easily be driven to vibrate at an excessive amplitude, causing pitch to drop and sound quality to distort. Often, using a harder reed will force a student to better develop the embouchure muscles to improve performance. In my area, many band directrors insist that students buy Vandoren reeds because a 2.5 Vandoren is probably the equivalent of a #3 Rico.
A particular danger of overly soft reeds is that they don't take that much air, and cause you to go for high notes without enough airflow to properly support the higher sound and control the reed. Lowered pitch, reduced tone quality, and difficulty in nailing down the targeted harmonic are all characteristic of this problem. (most people squeak from blowing to LITTLE, not too MUCH)
The proper clarinet embouchure is one of stretched muscles, thin lower lip padding, and firm muscles at the corner of the mouth. A search in the archives will probably provide much more info than I have time to write.
The bottom lone of all this is that these problems often exist in areas where there is little competition for playing opportunities and players are not forced by their environment to maintain or improve skills. Because of this, it is sometimes necessasry to put your absolute best players on the 1st clarinet parts. The higher the notes, the more critical these factors become.
Allen Cole
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
