 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-04-24 21:14
Can anyone explain the difference of podigy and talent? I'm a bit confused. Please???
Any comments? Thanks...
Post Edited (2003-04-24 22:17)
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-04-24 21:59
All prodigies are talented, but not all talents are prodigies.
Talent refers to the ability to do something very well, or simply a person who does something very well. A prodigy refers to someone who excels at something with little or no training -- they have an innate ability that requires minimal grooming for excellence.
I'm fairly talented, but I had to work to get there. Mozart was a prodigy. He was just born that way.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2003-04-24 23:02)
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-04-25 01:19
Yeah, I think the difference is a lot more than just a matter of degree. Prodigies are a breed that ought to lead people to believe in some form of reincarnation - or at least a gene that carries a previous life's worth of talent and experience that immediately re-exhibits itself in an grand and inexplicable manner. I see prodigies as being the amazing result of some as yet undiscovered linkage between generations - if not the specific skill such as the ability to master piano at age 5, then at least the combination of mastering a combination of related, more basic skills that can be demonstrated through a musical instrument. For example, extraordinary math skills, motor skills, tone sensitivity, and artistic/musical sensitivity and appreciation, all linked together in a 1 in 5 million manner equals a prodigy - if given the opportunity.
An interesting question is how many "potential prodigies" never have the opportunity. Or for that matter, and more common, how many potentially talented people neve have the opportunity. I guess that's where one of the prime motivations of the teaching professions kicks in.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-04-25 02:12
Jerry wrote:
> An interesting question is how many "potential prodigies" never
> have the opportunity. Or for that matter, and more common, how
> many potentially talented people neve have the opportunity. I
> guess that's where one of the prime motivations of the teaching
> professions kicks in.
This is one of those famous "what if" questions. Bach was a prodigy. However what if he had never found access to a piano? His ability would never have been discovered. Many people have talent, and can pick up things quicker than others, but an important factor in discovering if you are a prodigy or talented is just having the opportunity in front of you.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: bobmester
Date: 2003-04-25 02:21
Forget reincarnation. Prodigy is unexplainable talented and accomplished. Training is outside of normal scope.
talent is ability untrained.
with training, achieves potential.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-04-25 11:56
sfalexi wrote: "Bach was a prodigy. However what if he had never found access to a piano?"
Bach never found access to a piano. All he had were harpsichords, clavichords and organs!
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-04-25 12:38
By definition, a prodigy is someone who is 'prodigious' at something.
To be considered a true prodigy, the subject in question accomplishes his or her task at a level generally attained only by the finest adult professionals at a pre adult age.
In the case of instumental music, this usually not only includes instrumental vituosity but also the emotional component, always rare to see in a very young person.
Being in NY, I see and hear prodigies and 'near' prodigies all the time (not on clarinet, only ever heard one of those in my life. . .Julian Bliss). I'll tell you one thing virtually all of them have in common. . .mammoth amounts of hard work (practice). Very few prodigies develop in a vacuum.
And one doesn't 'discover' that he or she is a prodigy. Pretty much someone else will figure it out very quickly.
In music, the greatest of all prodigies was Mozart, of course. Before he was very far into his teenage years he was the greatest (or nearly the greatest) in these fields.
Piano
Violin
Viola
Organ
Composition
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Author: Domingo
Date: 2003-04-25 16:28
Can someone explain the "emotional component" people have for music, what does that mean? When you say its rare in young people, do you mean, very few young people appreciate it or understand it?
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-04-26 11:56
Emotional component refers to providing in one's performance the appropriate type of expressive gestures for the work in question.
Every type of music has its own vocabulary of appropriate ways of interpreting it musically. A whole list of 'stock' musical gestures applied liberally to every style of music is not going to be satisfying to the mature listener.t
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-04-26 16:08
Boiled down, there are essentially two types of people in the world of "performing arts", 1) Musicians 2) Technicians. It is in the eyes, heart and mind of the beholder to determine who is what.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-04-27 07:43
Mastery of musicality and technicality are what define a master of their instrument. And for that matter, one shuold aim to master more than their instrument, but their entire art. True?
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-04-27 10:21
Hi,
Talent is something that can be acquired with hard smart practice over a period of time.
A prodigy is someone that does the right things that come from hard smart practice but they do it without their own awareness.
In other words, doing the right things without knowing it.
This explains why a prodigy can not teach what they do because they are not aware of it and it is natural to them.
So a prodigy does not teach or produce another prodigy.
Another thing that helps a prodigy is the choice of instrument.
Which instruments can the majority of prodigies be found playing?
Some would say that Violin, Piano and Cello are popular instruments for children so that is why there are so many.
Another reason is physics.
The Piano, Violin and Cello are all one finger one note instruments. It is easier to play an instrument this way.
The Clarinet requires up to 10 fingers to create one note. And all those fingers must act as one in order to produce a clean note.
That is why when you play anything on the top of the Clarinet it is easy, one finger one note like a G scale in the low register. But add some flats or sharps and you are now playing on the side of the instrument using different combinations of fingers just to produce one silly note.
Who has it easier?
Who can become a prodigy faster?
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
Post Edited (2003-04-27 11:28)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-04-27 13:17
Fmadison, I am afraid I don't agree with most of what you say.
Many prodigies have become great teachers.
Mozart
Enescu
Liszt
Menuhin
Oistrakh
Kogan
about 1000 more I don't have time to type.
In fact, a surprising number of great musicians who started out prodigiously become at least decent teachers.
Self awareness has nothing to do with prodigies. Occasionally you will find one who only plays without any type of intellectualising of the technique, but it is still rare.
Talent is talent. . .it is not related to practice. I was a very talented kid, got by without good practicing for several years and still kept up or got ahead of those directly around me.
There are more violin and piano prodigies because of the age at which they start playing their instruments. Trust me, it is NOT because those instruments are easier. In fact, the violin is so difficult that one must really start playing it as a child in order to become at all great.
It is true that the piano is a 'simple' instrument in terms of what it takes technically to produce an in tune sound.
However, have you ever SEEN actual piano music? Playing it well requires thousands of hours of basic practice.
Following that thread, try to play a violin concerto on the clarinet. Good luck.
ALL instruments are difficult. The clarinet is not necessarily easier than the others, we have the whole embochure/voicing issue. This means a lot of what we call technique is not visible to the naked eye. Which is why I say you need a teacher who can play. . .he or she knows what's supposed to be going on in there. SOmeone who can't really play can only guess.
The common denominator is hard work. Not everyone who works hard at an instrument before age 5 will be a prodigy (duh). But a surprising number of them have done a lot of work by this age.
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-04-27 13:38
Hi,
I am sorry if I was not clear.
"Many prodigies have become great teachers."
Yes but I was trying to say that prodigies do not produce prodigies. They are not able to pass the essense that makes them a prodigy to another person who is not a prodigy.
"In fact, a surprising number of great musicians who started out prodigiously become at least decent teachers."
Yes but they lack the ability to articulate exactly what they do as prodigies so that a non-prodigy can understand and learn. Thus being able to duplicate the feat. It requires awareness of what one is doing right to be able to teach it.
"Following that thread, try to play a violin concerto on the clarinet."
It is difficult to play Violin concerto on the Clarinet because the Clarinet is a difficult instrument. Not because the Violin music is more difficult it is the nature of the Clarinet that makes it a hard instrument to master. You press the octave key you have 12ths not a true octave like a Flute or Saxaphone.
I will take a Clarinet that allows me to use one finger for one note and I can play any Clarinet music ever written. Our instrument is not as developed as the Piano or Strings. We have a long acoustical and mechanical journey to complete before our instrument matures. How about a throat B-Flat for now.....
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-04-27 14:22
No teacher can 'produce' a prodigy. But, as in the case of the Prodigy Menhuin studying with the ex prodigy Enescu, they can teach them.
I cannot imagine how you got the idea that:
>
> Yes but they lack the ability to articulate exactly what they
> do as prodigies so that a non-prodigy can understand and learn.
> Thus being able to duplicate the feat. It requires awareness of
> what one is doing right to be able to teach it.
>
How many former prodigies have you seen teach?
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-04-27 14:40
Hi,
Down in South Florida we have former child prodigies who are now adults teaching or who are retired.
None of their students reached the levels of a prodigy.
I guess the essense of what I am saying is that there is information that a prodigy posesses. That if it were possible to relay that information to a non prodigy they too would become a prodigy.
I believe what makes a prodigy can be taught if we had the essense of what they are doing correctly spelled out.
Then just add elbow grease.
All of us during our Clarinet days have at one point come accross a day that we remember well. That day we learned a piece of information that made a huge difference in our playing. Whether it was a new way of practicing that allowed us to play better.
A way of using a ligature to produce a better sound. Or a way to position your barrel or bell to sound better. A new hand position that allowed us to play with greater ease and speed.
Those nuggets made a difference.
I guess it boils down to this: I don't believe in prodigies they just know or do something that we don't that makes them so.
They are still people.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
Post Edited (2003-04-27 16:08)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-04-27 15:35
I think I understand.
You believe that prodigies are made, not born.
I believe that a prodigy MUST be born with incredible talent no one yet understands AND THEN made with hard work and proper instruction.
So I hope we can agree to disagree. Perhaps someday someone will figure it out (although the thought of millions of prodigies running around is a little scary).l
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-04-27 16:17
Hat,
You nailed it.
I think I should have mentioned this earlier. I have studied some prodigies and some of them lost their skills when they reach adulthood.
Many of the have a comon theme. They said that when they were children they did not think about what they were doing but it just happened. When they began to think about what they were doing their skills diminished over time.
There are many child prodigies who are now just average or good players.
So we agree to disagree.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-04-28 06:02
HAT - Mozart was prodigiously untactful about his talents, too ... he once told a contemporary (when discussing how one learns to write a symphony) "I never had to learn" ...
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Author: JellyJazz
Date: 2003-05-18 12:21
i started clarinet when i was 12-in 2 years i was grade 5 merit ABRSM. Having got to this stage without never of seen a clarinet before prople question if i have talent or am i a prodigy. i am now 16 working towards grade 8. What am i? talented or prodigy?
Jelly Jazz
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2003-05-18 14:44
i have neither--but what really P--- me off is to see someone who has one or both and takes it for granted. It is just too easy for them so why bother. Give me a break--use the talents that the good Lord gave you.n
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-05-18 17:31
What if you're gifted at something you don't like? Do you owe it to the world to devote yourself to something you hate?
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-05-18 22:02
JellyJazz:
If I may take a stab at answering your question -
If you are practicing your lungs and lips and fingers off, playing 4 to 6 hours a day or more to get where you are (whether you love it or not - although loving it makes devoting that much time much more enjoyable and productive) than I would say you are "talented."
However, if you have achieved that level in this short a time with considerably less effort than that, I would suggest you are approaching the prodigy or at least the "gifted" status. I suggest "gifted" as a middle ground between being a prodigy and being "merely" talented because isn't the term "prodigy" most often referring to the giftedness of much younger people, e.g 4 to 8-year olds? I don't think a person is purely one or the other, i.e. either talented or gifted. I think there is more of an analog-like continuum from talented to prodigy, e.g. "he is EXTREMELY talented" or "he plays as if he is somewhat of a prodigy." What do you think? These are all terms that are quite fuzzy and subjective in an attempt to explain how quickly people learn relative to their age, and relative to the levels of performance they achieve. The terms are not exact.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: JellyJazz
Date: 2003-05-19 19:51
very interesting..
in answer to your question i have got to my stage with little effort as i find it easy....that sounds big headed....i really should say that but its true...
gifted seems a nice way to describe someone. i think gifted is as you say in between a prodigy and just talent.
a question for you:
if a person is a prodigy and doesnt discover this until he/she is older, is she/he still a prodigy or just someone who is talented. does the term prodigy only appliy to those who are young i.e. younger than 8?
Jelly Jazz
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-05-20 02:55
I was wondering about that same thing as I was replying to your post. Can a 50 year-old who for the first time is exposed to an activity and exceeds the level of 99% of his peers in that activity, with little effort, be called a prodigy?
I would say "yes" after having looked up the word in my American Heritage:
"a person with exceptional talents or powers." The term is not age dependent. It just so happens we most often associate the word "child" with "prodigy." But I doubt that the word is intended to refer only to young children. However, adults have been exposed to so many interrelated activities that we would tend to chalk up any extraordinary success to "life experiences", whereas when a young child experiences the same success, it appears so much more miraculous.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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