 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: katchow
Date: 2003-05-16 15:04
i've searched high and low and tried my tonguing in numerous positions...
the one problem i've never really heard discussed is the clogging up the mouthpiece with spit when trying to tongue. I gently stop the reed vibration with my tongue but as i pull it away the air pressure pushes saliva right off my tongue and into the opening between the reed and the mouthpiece. I can't begin to explain how frustrating it is. I can't think of other issues such as speed because i can't even play 2 notes without having to blow the spit out of my mouthpiece. I am truly dedicated but this makes it impossible for me to even practice my tonguing. I've tried swallowing every bit of saliva in my mouth but i inevitably make more when i begin to play.
i've been playing for about a year and starting taking lessons about 2 months ago. None of my teacher's advice has helped much...he just tell me to make sure my chin remains stable as my tongue moves and keep practicing it...is my problem uncommon? it seems like it would happen quite a bit...
i have been progressing quite nicely in other areas of my playing but i just feel like i've hit a brick wall...and i'm afraid to even practice anymore knowing that i am playing incorrectly...
any advice is apprecciated more than you can imagine...
kevin
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-16 15:28
Kevin -
The tone is produced by the breath, not the tongue. It starts and keeps going by itself. The tongue only interrupts the air stream, and it does this with the minimum possible movement. You just brush across the bottom of the reed tip with 1/16" of the tip of your tongue.
See the exercise I posted at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=32780&t=32715, in which you do the brush stroke while deliberately missing the tip of the reed, and then gradually move in until you just touch it.
As with others, you must pay the price for the lesson -- try it for a few days and come back with a report.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-16 15:55
I occassionally get extra saliva between the reed and mouthpiece too. To me it makes the clarinet "gurgle" a little while I'm playing and that sound is how I know there's too much. To counteract it, I simply inhale sharply THROUGH the clarinet every so often. When I have rests or a quick break.
Just close your embouchre and quickly suck in like you're sucking through a straw. This pretty much gets rid of that spit that's stuck on the back of the reed. Works for me.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-16 16:42
Check your posture. If your head tilts down when you play, this could also cause extra saliva to run into the mouthpiece.
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Author: n_hanson12
Date: 2003-05-16 18:12
Alexi,
I often have to do the same thing; the "sucking through a straw method". I haven't discovered any way to stop the spit from coming up, but as far as removing the spit, this does work very nicely.
~Nicki
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-05-16 18:32
Maybe you are producing too much saliva, for reasons we don't know. Perhaps you can discuss this with your dentist.
On the subject of tonguing, but not spit, I'd like to point out that Ken Shaw's comments above can lead to an unpleasant result.
It is possible, when contacting the bottom of the reed with the top of the tongue, to stop the vibrations but not stop the air from hissing through the mouthpiece. To stop the air you must press the bottom of the reed hard enough to close the mouthpiece/reed gap. Not good. Or, you must delay applying the air until the tongue releases the reed.
This technique can lead to the habit of starting the air with a hee at the same time the tongue moves back (or down?) to release the reed. This can lead to response problems in the upper clarion and altissimo, and even tongue noises.
Also, the approach from under the reed can possibly lead to a tongue position that is generally too low.
It is crucial to have air pressure built up before the tongue releases it through the mouthpiece to begin the note. To prevent the airflow from starting the note, the tip of the tongue should ideally touch the tip of the reed and the tip of the mouthpiece, effectively sealing off the air.
To start a note, seal the mouthpiece/reed gap with the very end of your tongue, apply air pressure and then release the tongue by pulling the tongue back, not down. This approach also makes it easier to maintain the correct high tongue position.
Unless you have a long tongue or a short mouth....
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Author: katchow
Date: 2003-05-16 19:23
wow...thanks for all the replies. this is a great BB
i can't wait to get home and try some of these out....
i'm so happy i could spit
kevin
i'll keep you posted of any progress...thanks again!
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Author: Bob Schwab
Date: 2003-05-17 03:45
What timing! You know just yesterday I came close to asking almost the same question. I too sometimes have almost a Pavlovian like response whenever I begin playing. It seems that just playing tends to activate my salivary glands. While I've been doing that sucking thing that sfalexi mentioned (I hope y'all realize this is about playing the clarinet), often it is not enough and I have to remove the reed and dry it. In worse case scenarios I have to swab the instrument. Maybe I shouldn't be chewing gum when I play. Do you think that would help?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-17 04:18
Chewing gum = saliva. So not chewing gum would DEFINTELY help. On the flipside, when your reed is too dry, (in certain rooms or concert conditions), it's good to have a little juicebox next to you. Ecto Cooler was my choice but I can't seem to find them anywhere lately. This keeps the saliva flowing. Take a sip whenever you get a chance.
Another thing I do is sorta "lick" the reed every now and then. It takes the excess buildup off the reed.
Happy clarinetting!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: bassclarinetchicka88
Date: 2003-06-01 15:55
when i started clarinet, i was completely self-taught. my dad didnt think i would really stay with it, so we didnt waste money on private lessons. my tonguing was all wrong. i was doing some variation of anchor tonguing - a terrible thing to do, but i didnt know any better. a lot of very talented people have had to work with me extensively to retrain my tongue, and now my articulation is pretty dang good. therefore, i know you will improve if you work on it.
it sounds to me like your problem is mostly on the emphasis of your tongue. i'm not very good with words, so i'll try my best to give you an explanation: you're tonguing too hard. try to tongue lightly. this might help: when you explain this it sounds to me like you are putting all of your emphasis on bringing the tongue to the reed. put your emphasis away from the reed instead of to it. what i mean is, once your tongue is on the reed, try to get it off the reed as quickly as you can.
put the clarinet down for a minute and pretend to be spitting watermelon seeds. you might feel like an idiot, but if you're doing it right, it will help to quicken and lighten your articulation.
i hope you're not too confused - good luck! i know how frustrating it can be:(
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-01 18:41
Synonymous Botch said: "... Again, Brethern and Cistern, I draw you to Langenus, Chapter III No. 11...."
-and No.12 ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-01 21:59
People vary in their salivation tendencies but regardless of that saliva and condensation in the mouthpiece, barrel and horn sections of the clarinet are a problem everyone deals with. Tongueing is not the same as spitting and maybe you are doing the latter rather than the former. Periodically while playing one must swallow the excess saliva in one's mouth. One does this automatically when not playing but when playing you must do it even more often. Join the crowd!
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-06-02 05:12
I recently re-read page 8 of Daniel Bonade's little "Clarinetist's compendium" where he discusses staccato. In that section he has a sketch about tongue placement on the read, which shows it just BELOW the tip, not AT the tip. I understand that we just want to stop the reed from vibrating, not stuff the tongue between the reed and the tip of the mouthpiece to stop up the airflow like a plug!
He says: "The very tip of the tongue should be used to touch the part of the reed just below the extreme tip thus [sketch] The principle of staccato is not to hit the reed with the tongue but to have the tip of the tongue ON the reed and move it backward and forward intermittently at different speeds as needed. Consider staccato as an interruption of legato."
When I read this section again I wondered if I brought my tongue a little below the edge of the reed, a tiny bit away from the opening between the reed and the mouthpiece like Bonade says, might that reduce my saliva-in-mouthpiece problem? It seems logical that it would since the wet tongue (sounds like my dog) is not exactly over the opening of the mouthpiece. And, I would assume the tongue should hit the reed in the same place for normal tonguing as for staccato, yes?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Rene
Date: 2003-06-02 05:52
A fact is that lifting the tongue causes the saliva to be produced, especially shortly after a meal. You can try that out. It helps to brush teeth before playing by my experience. The comment about chewing gum must have been a joke, or not?
To tongue at the very edge of the reed sounds dangerous to me. You might get a chip easily. I always thought that by the tip of the reed the part immediately below the edge is meant. And that's what I do.
But here is my question:
To avoid these salive problems one may come to anchor tonguing, where the tip is behind the lower lip/teeth and the tonguing is done with a further down part of the tongue. I searched the forum and it was not recommended. However, is it really such a bad idea?
Rene
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Author: katchow
Date: 2003-06-02 16:36
you know i've been really working a lot on my tonguing that last couple of weeks...its has gotten a lot better...i still have a little trouble with the higher notes. I think i'm still trying to get used to maintaining the air pressure (before, i just started the notes by blowing, almost like a cough, trying to articulate with my throat starting and stopping the air). I've noticed that even though i'm still a little sketchy at tonguing high notes, when they do come out they sound a million times better than anything i played previously. so anyway, i'm starting to feel like i'm on the right track now (and its a great feeling)...thanks for all the help.
the spitting issue just seemed to dissappear once i started tonguing a bit lower (approx. 1/4 inch down the reed, maybe a little less)...before i always had the impression that i was supposed to stick my tongue in the opening of the reed/mouthpiece). Thats how i kept getting jammed up with saliva....
if its of help to anyone, i started out tonguing the whole note/half note/quarter/eighth/sixteenth note exercise at about 60 bpm. Then raising the speed a bit and trying it with every note on the clarinet up to high C (thats as far as i've got in my lessons)
life is good
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-02 16:58
I find that reducing the amount of mouthpiece in my mouth during tongueing also helps. Re your sticking your tongue in the tip opening, a private teacher would probably have corrected that rather quickly.
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