 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-05-15 22:55
Hi,
From the subject you might think I am one of those that thinks clarinets blow out. Not true, but, I think I stumbled on to what causes a clarinet to over time loose some or part of its voice. I would have written sooner, but I needed more data (clarinets).
Ok, what I noticed was that a deposit from the swabbing action lodges in the under-cut areas of the tone holes especially in the upper joint. (This is the same stuff you clean off your mouthpiece.) This debris slowly fills in the under-cut areas and changes the clarinets voice over time. This deposit therefore accumulates in an area that cannot be seen. I found this while cleaning tone holes with a Q-tip moist with bore oil. Small pieces of this deposit accumulated on the Q-tip. It didn't take long to figure out where it came from; the bore was clean and the part of the tone hole I could see was clean. The result after cleaning, I guess I could say the biggest impact was on intonation.
So, how does it accumulate? Well when you are painting, and want to remove excess paint from the brush you pass it over the edge of the can to wring it out. The swab does the same thing when it goes over the tone holes on the inside of the clarinet. It leaves a minute amount of debris, which dries (when the clarinet dries.) and hardens. Over a long period of time (years) enough accumulates to begin affecting the voice.
So, why does the oil emersion help so much? Simple, the oil soak softens and to a point dissolves the deposit. After which the clarinet is cleaned, because whatever is left is now soft, it is easily removed with a bore brush. So, (as far as I can tell) what you are getting is the most thorough cleaning possible. (very little oil remains in the wood.) Now, all we need to "bring back" an old clarinet is bore oil, a good bore brush and a bunch of Q-tips.
Best Regards to all
Mark
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Author: kenbear
Date: 2003-05-16 07:06
Mark,
I don't have time to go trawling through the woodwind archives to give you the link, but I remember a repairer named Alvin Swiney (who learned his trade in Hans Moennig's shop) also commented on this build up of calcified material within the undercut part of the tone hole as being the cause of 'blow out'. Worth a look for this as well as Mr Swiney's other posts describing Moennig's set-up procedures.
K
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-05-16 11:39
Don't forget the 'chimneys' under ring keys... these can gather enough evidence for an entire episode of CSI...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-05-16 13:11
Mark: Having given the subject much thought I can say that I almost totally agree with you. I do feel that these saliva deposits (or whatever they are)
will lead to voicing or intonation or blowout or whatever one wants to call them. I don't think that the swabbing operation causes the problem per se but can certainly help to distribute the deposits. In a way these deposits act somewhat like the old "trick" of hanging a thread or string down the inside of the horn. AND when one considers how important hole undercutting was to improvement of the sound of the clarinet one can realize how detrimental any deposit or alteration of the undercut profile can be. Good detective work,Mark.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-05-16 13:44
Synonymous Botch.
I agree with you about the 'chimneys' under ring keys. My daughter accumulates a lot here, so much so that I ask her to wash her hands before she plays. This acomplishes 2 things; 1) cuts down on the "chimney" accumulation, and 2) Removes excess acid from the fingers, that extends the time between key polishings.
Best Regards
Mark
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-05-16 16:45
This is a great academic debate but hard to put specific data to prove or disprove any theory or combination of variables that interact to produce changes in intonation or timbre. Without specific spectral frequency measurements, and the correct algorithms to interpret them, the assessments are subjective. No doubt the alteration of the air column producing the frequencies is changed by accumulations of material around the tone holes but also temporal changes in the wood from the time of manufacture may also produce change in the frequencies produced. The water in the bore of the instrument is not primarily saliva but condensation of water vapor in the expired air from the lungs. No doubt there may be minute food particles and some saliva entering the bore if the instrument is played soon after eating or the individual produces a lot of saliva while playing. We all do clean those areas that might accumulate this material - don't we!!!
Deformations caused by shrinkage or swelling of the wood by environmental conditions may also cause subtle changes in the frequency patterns produced. Whether there is a downward spiral is probably dependent on the use and care of the instrument as well as intrinisic factors in the wood caused by Nature or the subsequent stabilization of the wood by aging and oil impregnation. Manufacturing techniques may also cause pockets that are more prone to collect flotsam and jetsam or water droplets.
These are great discussions and make interesting conjecture but without the proper measurement tools and the sensitivity to detect differences they remain academic debate - I do believe that some gifted players can discern changes in instrument performance but the specific reasons remain obscure.
The Doctor
Post Edited (2003-05-16 17:53)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-05-16 20:17
Thanks for joining in the academic discussion, Doc.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-16 20:28
Doc -
Benade said that small changes in the tone hole chimneys could make a significant change in tone. Alvin Swiney, in the posts I linked to, said that he found significant accumulation in the tone holes of supposedly blown out clarinets, mostly from swab lint. When he removed this, he said, the instruments played like new.
There was also agreement that there was no significant erosion of the bore from friction from the swab.
See the thread at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=61660&t=61064.
Finally, Kalmen Opperman has told me that what spoils older clarinets is that people tamper with the bore, particularly in the barrel and the upper part of the upper joint.
Does this match your experience?
Ken Shaw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-05-17 02:46
I must disclaim any expertise with repairing or overhauling clarinets - I only make care products which are designed and tested to be kind to instruments.
I have had good luck rejuvenating older dried out instruments (now N=29)with a thorough cleaning of all the orifaces with formulations that are kind to wood and then restoring the oil and moisture balance to the wood slowly. I do not have a control for these experiments except that the owners were happy with the results and the consensus has been their opinion that it was a better playing clarinet after treatment.
I am not sure what you mean by tampering with the bore other than using a new barrel or possibly reburnishing the bore. The latter should be done (I am told) with the precision used to reface valve seats in a car engine. I doubt that using a high quality swab such as silk will significantly alter the bore dimensions even after years of swabbing unless the wood has dried out, lost oil content, and the bore becomes rough.
I routinely clean all my tone holes, register tube, etc. and inspect them for any evidence of buildup or obstruction (both above, and below with an endoscope). My friends call me Mr. Clean and everyone else just thinks that I am a paranoid AR person.
I would still not discount the temporal changes in the wood over time.
The Doctor
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2003-05-17 04:27
I just had my plastic clarinet overhauled. Would the type of cleaning people have talked about here normally have been included in that overhaul? If not, do I have to remove the keys to get to the tone holes to clean them?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-17 04:40
Hey Doc (in a Marty McFly voice),
I was wondering how often you clean out the register tube and the other places. I'm planning on getting a thorough overhaul with pad replacement (replacing with a different pad), voicing, custom barrel, oil immersion therapy, etc. in order to try to bring my clarinet to it's prime and figured afterwards I'd better do all I can to get into a habit of taking GREAT care of it. Would I do a general cleanup about once a month or maybe every other week? (I can't imagine it taking longer than a half hour while watching some TV so I wouldn't mind doing it often). And when you clean something like under the rings, do you take all the keys off the clarinet to do so? I've taken apart and put back together my spare clarinet dozens of time for fun. My sax too so that wouldn't phase me if it's better to take apart to do this.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-05-17 10:27
Since I do not do repair or do more than the simple fix-it on my clarinets - I have developed some custom tools for doing these right angle cleaning chores. The octive key I do remove to clean the register tube but (call me a whimp) I do not take off the other keys because I am afraid of messing up the fine adjustment that I paid to have done on the horns. For the register tube I find that an unused women's mascara brush is just the right size. I clean everything completely about once a month - depends on your playing time (engine clock). I can not speak to what technicans do during an overhaul but assume that a complete cleaning is part of the job.
The Doctor
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-05-17 12:45
I think clarinet blow out can be likened to the human aging process. The joints and pivots stiffen a bit, the voice changes and the pads have to be replaced. Sometimes the bore enlarges in the mid section.
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