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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-13 02:46
It would be interesting to know how many full-time professional orchestras (symphony, opera/ballet, and chamber but not including professional/military bands) countries have per head of population. I'll start:
Australia 19 million
6 Symphony Orchestras (QLD, NSW, VIC, TAS, SA, WA)
1 Chamber Orchestra (the ACO)
2 Opera/Ballet Orchestras (Sydney & Melbourne)
This excludes the Adelaide Chamber and the Australian Brandenburg Orchestra and other orchestras that are semi-permanent or on a seasonal basis but not full time (Hunter Orchestra for example).
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Author: Neil
Date: 2003-05-13 03:24
I would be interested to know what population base is required to support an orchestra. One might think that South Florida with its abundance of affluent retirees would be a prime location, but then again maybe not.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-13 04:03
Hi Neal,
Your comment that Miami would seem to be able to support an orchestra based on the "abundance of affluent retirees" is interesting. However, Fl is an interesting place like no other that I know. As a resident of the Daytona Beach area for a decade and a Midwestener by birth and for a major part of my life, I observed some interesting demographic and economic factor that are unique in the state and may in part be a reason that many cultural ventures do not do as well as in the North.
My hypothesis is that in the North, particularly the major industrial and business population areas like New York, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, etc., there is a centuries old tradition of European immigration which was not a pronounced in Fl as well as in the entire Southeastern tier of states. With this strong European influence in language, culture, culinary habits, ethnic background, as well as the arts a strong local sense for music was a natural evolution to support for music.
The Southeastern states tended to be much more agrarian and the effect of the immagration impact was diffused to plantions, farms, and rural areas. The cenutury old traditon of the arts, well established in the North, did not begin to develop in teh South until much later in the past century.
How do the affluent retirees fit into the hypothesis? IMHO this large group of people either chooses not to support the arts as strongly as we would hope and the remaining bulk of the populous - whos support could tip the balance - does not value the arts as strongly as similar segments of the population that one might find in the large northern cities I mentioned.
While Atlanta is a success story, the possibility of other large Southern cities supporting a major orchestra may not have as much of a chance for the reasons I mentioned. Just some thoughts about a unique socio-economic as well as cultural phenomena.
HRL
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-05-13 04:44
One factor in Atlanta's success is probably that it is THE big city for a substantial radius with a decent population density. Florida has more cities that would likely compete with each other for the same base. If three of them have orchestras to complete in the same size area that Atlanta has to itself, resources may be spread thin to the point where no one group gets all that much.
Allen Cole
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-13 07:29
Switzerland 7 million:
8 symphony orchestras (Zürich, Winterthur, St. Gallen, Luzern, Basel, Biel, Genève, Lugano)
3 chamber orchestras (Zürich, Lausanne, Genève)
1 opera orchestra (Zürich)
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2003-05-13 09:39
Although this is a SWAG, my guess, for the US would be a population around 5 million. This using the criteria of a full time paid orchestra.
Since unlike a number of state/government supported orchestras in Europe, our groups outside of seeking the odd NEA grant have to be supported privately and ticket sales is just one part of the mix.
However, that said, once you remove the requirement for a full time membership, numerous communities support symphony orchestras with populations 1/100th of the above.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-13 11:21
Allen,
I think you have got it with the 5 million population number but IMHO the European tradition thorugh immigration idea that I possed is also very important. You can have a lot of people but if they don't value the arts, you are dead in the water.
Where I am located here in the Toledo area, we have large, adequately funded, and apprecaited symphonies in Cincinnatti, Detroit and Cleveland and second tier groups with good support in Columbus, Dayton, and Toledo. The number of fine music schools also influences the situation as well. I believe that if you look to Canada, you'd find much the same situation.
All of the above cities have outstanding museums built on decades on endowments. I believe the two go hand-in-hand. Then when you consider recording contracts for the top orchestras......
HRL
Post Edited (2003-05-13 12:30)
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Author: geo
Date: 2003-05-13 13:15
According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, the present population of the United States at 8:37:31 AM EDT today was ca.
290,958,813 (see Census Bureau )
I'm not sure about the exact numbers in Germany (ca. 82 million, about the size of Indiana. & Illinois combined), where i am at the moment, but most cities and university towns have exceptional cultural offerings. Of course with the present economic problems, much of the state and local funding is being dramatically cut, so the numbers i found on the web below are/will be decreasing....
ca. 160 professional orchestras
ca. 50 professional chamber orchestras
ca. 120 musical theaters
21 music university level academies & 13 conservatories (ca. 15% are international students)
(btw, i studied here, but Medieval Liguistics & Literature not music... believe me, music majors are much more likely to work in their area of study than i am )
PDF source from German Government research web site
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Author: geo
Date: 2003-05-13 13:37
Ooops, i ment "size of Indiana & Illinois combined "= land area, the combined poulation of those two states is only ca. 18.6 million.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-13 14:58
How about England? Seems to me that the UK has a very large number of world-class symphony orchestras, including at least four in the City of London alone.
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Author: BARRY
Date: 2003-05-14 09:01
Have just been to Norway and thought they had the record, but Swizterland seems to beat them.
These Vikings are only 4.5 million strong but have 3 full Symphony Orchestras. I don't know about Chamber Orchestras. They also have a big band tradition of very high quality with many young professionals who later become known figures (this is the case, in particular, of the little port of Bodo, population 45,000)
barry
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Author: Andy
Date: 2003-05-14 10:17
London, (to my knowledge)
LSO
LPO
RPO
Philharmonia
London Mozart Players
City of London Sinfonia
English National Opera Orchestra
Orchestra of the Royal Opera and Ballet Covent Garden
Just the tip of the ice...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-14 11:10
Hi All,
I still maintain that the European cultural issue is a key factor in this situation. The Switzerland and Norway examples seem to support my point. In Minnesota, which has a large Norweign population, you'll find a strong choral music tradtion.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-05-14 12:11)
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-05-14 13:04
UK has;
full time orchestras 16
LSO, LPO, RPO, Philharmonia, BBC SO, Bournmouth SO, CBSO, RLPO, Halle, BBC Phil, Northern Sinfonia. BBC Scottish, RNOS, SCO, Ulster, BBC Welsh.
opera/ballet 9
Covent Garden, ENO, Birmingham Royal Ballet, Festival Ballet, Opera North, Northern Ballet, Welsh Opera, Scottish Opera, Scottish Ballet.
in a population of about 55 million
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-05-14 13:19
The Southern US communities have incredibly rich music traditions that just don't necessarily fit our model of Western European culture. I hear more live music walking the streets of Miami than I ever do in New York. The root influences are different and the instruments and group structures vary, but the cultural depth and talent required to perform it are no different. Spend some time with session musicians from Nashville -- Say what you want about country music but holy crap do those guys have ears and chops! Or, any time of day or night in New Orleans go get a snootfull of America's very own homegrown classical tradition of jazz.
I wouldn't say it is a lack of value for the arts. I believe ethnic and cultural foundations define what that value set is. Let's not be dismissive of the diversity of artistic traditions.
Diz poses an interesting question, particularly in the context of the US. For a country of 300 million people, a growing percentage of whom do not trace their roots to Western or Eastern Europe, how do we look? Factor out those people for whom European orchestral music is not part of their artistic heritage and we probably have a decent ratio. Perhaps with the collapse of public and municipal support for these organizations, the number of orchestras is right-sizing to the demo- and ethnographics of the population. We still have Chicago, Clevaland, New York, Atlanta, Boston, LA, San Francisco, Detroit, Dallas, etc., etc. Not all bad news.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-14 14:38
BARRY, there may be more, but I can think of 4 full symphony orchestras in Norway- Oslo, Bergen, Stavanger and Trondheim.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-14 19:14
To msloss,
But I thought we were talking about orchestras? While there may be a rich patina of street music in the places you mention and a great deal of diversity as well, IMHO, I can't see how your argument extends to the original question about professional orchestras. Did I miss a turn somewhere here?
HRL
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Author: larryb
Date: 2003-05-14 20:13
Germany is an interesting case - lots of professional local orchestras, but are any of them really "world class" outside of the Berlin Philharmonic? The Bavarian State Radio Symphony Orchestra recently played at Carnegie Hall and received a rather tepid review (wish I had been there). This situation is quite good though for people who live in towns and small cities, and particularly for musicians who gain employment. I'm sure if I lived in Mainz I'd enjoy going to the symphony and opera there (or in nearby Frankfurt), but would I pay to see the Hessian State Orchestra play at Carnegie Hall?
As for the discussion above about european immigrants in the Northeast - I'm not convinced. New Orleans has an incredibly rich history of european cultural influence (along with african). Creole culture cared a great deal about opera, band music and symphonies.
Nowadays, though, southerners of european origin tend to be red-necks; and florida is a place to go to die. Not very condusive to supporting orchestras
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-14 21:14
Hi Larryb,
My comment about the European tradition and the support for symphony orchestras was for the entire region from Boston to Chicago and as far south as the DC area. While the New Orleans example you cite is true about the Cajun contribution, it would seem that that would be somewhat localized in just that area.
Didn't the New Orleans Symphony go through a series on financial problems in the 1990s?
HRL
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-14 21:33
"Germany is an interesting case - lots of professional local orchestras, but are any of them really "world class" outside of the Berlin Philharmonic?"
YES! There are at least 7 world class orchestras in Germany. Of course the other 153 vary in standard. But just because one German radio orchestra got a bad crit, doesn't mean that the only good orchestra in Germany is the Berlin Philharmonic. Crits don't mean much- some of the best European msicians have been slated by the American press.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-05-15 12:45
Hank,
Your statement "I observed some interesting demographic and economic factor that are unique in the state and may in part be a reason that many cultural ventures do not do as well as in the North." implies that cultural institutions are less successful down yonder. My point is that it depends on your definition of culture and cultural institutions and you have to take the definition of success in context.
So, no, symphony orchestras may not do well in the South. But, that is not because the South is culturally bankrupt, but because the emphasis is in different areas.
But, don't listen to me. I'm a Yankee elitist intellectual snob born in the South, so I'm very conflicted, but getting help.
Mark
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-05-15 13:08
In Chile we are 15 million people (last recensement on 2002)
Santiago has 5 million people and two major orchestras
Orquesta Sinfónica de Chile, depending of Universidad de Chile
Orquesta Filarmónica, depending of the Municipality of Santiago. These are the only two able to play big compositions (e.gr Mahler, Stravinsky) not for the quality of musicians but for the size.
Two symphonic orchestras in Santiago able to play baroque and classical works, one also in Concepción (1 million people) and Valparaíso (1 million people). One chamber orchestra, in Santiago (only strings).
Andy, what about The Academy of Saint-Martin in-the-Fields in England?
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