 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2003-05-09 22:11
At the risk of getting slammed for my views . . . If I had kids, I wouldn't let them get a college degree in music if they were expecting it would get them a professional job.
My teacher plays bass clarinet and second soprano clarinet for the Florida Philharmonic which is inches away from filing for bankruptcy. Here is someone who spent his entire education on the clarinet, preparing for what was his dream job - playing clarinet in an orchestra. He took lessons throughout his life and while in college, spent a bundle majoring in music and the clarinet. He finally gets a position (7 years ago?) after having free lanced for several years, and now the orchestra is going down the tubes. And even if his gig continued, the pay scale for clarinet players is shocking - a pittance compared to the time and money spent on education. His salary with the orchestra is insufficient to support his stay at home wife and 2 kids, so he supplements with teaching.
Corey's post on the Oboe prompted my post. While reading it, I was shaking my head thinking that if he's expecting his education to lead to a full time professional position, he is likely in for a rude awakening. I understand that clarinet positions with an orchestra in this country are almost non-existent, and when one infrequently comes available, there competition for it is staggering.
It's a sad state of affairs that the performing arts seem to be so devalued these days.
I don't have kids, but if I did and they were interested in the clarinet, I'd tell them it's fine for a hobby, but not a profession.
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Author: Corey
Date: 2003-05-09 23:22
No, I don't expect playing the oboe to be a full time position.....I plan to teach oboe after college, Maybe even teach Band at a High School( I know that would require more education than Just performance), or anything that has to do with the music profession....Allthough in the perfect world I would love to be principle in an orchestra and tour the world soloing on oboe...but I doubt that will be happening. Who says that I will live in this country when I get out of college? There are so many orchestras and symphonies, and chamber groups in this world. I could start a woodwind quartet or double reed ensemble to help with the bills. Who knows what the future will bring as well. I also think that you are generalizing the whole music business, just because one orchestra went bankrupt doesn't mean anything. In YOUR opinion, music isn't a profession in mine, it can be. -corey
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-05-10 00:20
Well, I've just wasted 135K on the oldest kid, I guess ...
Darn. I thought he was going to support me in the style I'd like to become accustomed to ... ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-05-10 01:31
Well, Mark, from a few posts ago I'd conclude the return(s) are already worth more than anyone's retirement account - wouldn't you?
But, 'support you in a style'...
how long did you say you can hold a long tone??? 
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Author: bethermann
Date: 2003-05-10 02:23
what about music education...
a job in teaching is secure...
granted performance may be risky, but for someone who really doesnt want to perform, maybe playing gigs on the side, you know, playing pits, subbing, etc...and wants to teach, music education is not at all risky.
at least where i live theres a bit of a demand for music teachers, and if you have a certificate and are competant you can pretty much secure a job...
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Author: KENOLD
Date: 2003-05-10 02:31
I have heard or read somewhere that only about half of college graduates ever work in the field in which they received their degrees. The important thing about a college degree is that it trains you how to think, plan, and carry out a project to completion. It opens many doors that are unavailable to someone without. a degree. If you have an interest for something and work hard at it enough to received a degree, you will likely be successful at whatever you choose to do. Not every business major goes to work on wall street, not every engineer gets to work at NASA, and not every degreed musician is going to land that enviable well paying job in a big city orchestra. Most will have successful careers at something. If you have a passion for music and want to get a college degree, my advise is - GO FOR IT!
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Author: george
Date: 2003-05-10 03:15
Do not go to college for job training. Go to learn of our cultural heritage, and study the subjects that interest and excite you, be they Classical Greek, history, literature, abstract mathematics, theoretical physics, philosophy, music, or any of a hundred other "useless" subjects.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-05-10 03:35
Irwin- just because the Florida Phil. is going bankrupt doesn't mean the world is coming to an end for all its musicians. My good friend's teacher is the Tubist for the Florida Phil. and he is sad at all of this, sure- but he looked at the bright side. Now he will have time to explore other things like teaching more if for any reason the orchestra doesn't continue after filing for bankruptcy.
If you want to go into performance- go right ahead. Don't let people like Irwin and others discourage you. "Oh, the spots are limited in orchestras", " Oh, the pay isn't good" and so on. All of these people have valid points. But if it's what you want to do- go for it and give it your all. Sure you should have some sort of backup or two, but give it your all and really study music for the love of it. As long as you have some sort of talent to work with you should do fine. There are a lot of different "jobs" in the music and even clarinet field. Who says you have to stay in peformance if it doesn't work out.
Bradley
Post Edited (2003-05-10 04:48)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-05-10 04:27
I think Irwin's post deserves some real careful reading ... the life of musician in general is pretty rough. I tried it (on a different instrument) and being on call, getting studio jobs in the Pacific Northwest, and going on small tours in the Kitsap peninsula didn't agree with my disposition - along with being a generally money-losing proposition. And this was for an instrument generally in demand (a bass player with his own equipment plus a mixer/pa/sound reinforcement system can always find work ...)
My son is going to be heading to Japan for opportunities there ... (Tokyo Geidai University for study, practice, and a masters, along with teaching and performance opportunities.)
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-10 04:27
Irwin - You have guts for posting what you said and I respect you for doing it. He is right. I am sorry but these days going into music just because you "love it" isn't enough to get a job. You can love playing all you want, the orchestras don't care about how much you love it, just how well you can play and how well you work with other fine caliber musicians.
"As long as you have some sort of talent to work with you should do fine.” - I hate to say it but this is simply not true. To really be successful you need to have not just some form of talent but the real talent that makes you stand out type of talent to maybe and I say maybe very seriously, in order to get a job.
Florida is just an example of cuts. Orchestra's around the world are having problems. CSO has cut several programs and made a few smaller like the civic orchestra is a chamber orchestra now.
of all the people that go into music, i really think that a very small percentage (like two percent) should go into music. If you read this and think ("well I was first in all state or I play principal in my local youth orchestra") and that means that you are good enough to get into this field, you are terribly wrong.
I want to also put out on the platform. The idea that teaching is for people that can't make it in performance, well you are wrong. It is just as hard to land a good teaching gig as it is to get a good orchestral job. the land of mediocre education musicians is slowly fading out.
sorry to rain on the optimism parade.
- James
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-05-10 04:55
But teaching on any level is easier at least to me since there is such a shortage of directors in high schools here in Miami.
I was saying that you should try as much as you can, because if you have some sort of talent and you treat music like the art it is, you should become talented w/e your beliefs or your teacher's beliefs are about playing music.
I know little accomplishments mean nothing now, but if you truly have an understanding for music above your peers and you want to pursue a music career, then you should by all means. Just because of how little the pay is , doesn't mean you should get discouraged either. It's a whole lot better to be earning the salary in a profession you love, than earning twice as much at some "job" you hate or just don't feel was what you really wanted to do.
These are just my opnions, and I really don't mind if someone disagrees with me on it, because who am I after all.... Lol
If someone states their conflicting opinion then I can probably at least draw something from their point of view and find it valuable to know, so its better to state what you feel. I was just saying all of this because I don't want anyone to feel like I'm trying to say my thoughts are right or possibly more true than someone else's in any way.
Bradley
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-10 05:08
one doesn't become talented, you either are talented to begin with or you really aren't. it's just a matter of cultivating that talent.
The general knowledge of the high school musicians (and i am talking about every single person who is in a band or orchestra program at a school) is relatively low. It takes very little to comprehend music on a higher level than them. It is no real accomplishment in my opinion.
just because one knows science better than the general level of students at a given school doesn't mean that should become a micro-biologist or because someone is better than most in English that he or she should become a writer.
to be one of those people, you have to be EXTREMELY exceptional.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-10 05:13
If you truly have hopes to become a musician, why not major in music? If it doesn't work out, there will always be another trade you can do. Perhaps you won't love it as much as music, but I see no reason why to give up hope before trying. If you try, and it doesn't work out, so be it. But what about the later years in your life when you look back and reflect on how your life has been. You'll say, "I shoulda tried. Now I'll never know if I could've done it or not." If the pay isn't enough, get a parttime job in addition to it. Teach lessons on the side, work at a local retail outlet (you can almost ALWAYS find a job somewhere in sales). Or you can branch off into another line of clarinet-related work. Perhaps you can learn the art of mouthpiece making/refacing. Or start a reed company. Do custom work on horns.
And if worst comes to worst, make music the part-time job. Work the normal 35-40 hours a week wherever and be a freelancer, be available for commercial recording, for small gigs here and there. If you truly love playing, you shouldn't worry about how much you get paid to play or how often you play, just be happy that you ARE able to play.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Corey
Date: 2003-05-10 05:20
I STRONGLY, strongly disagree with this quote by cyso_clarinetist: "one doesn't become talented, you either are talented to begin with or you really aren't. it's just a matter of cultivating that talent." To ME, that is a complete bull statement , you can become talented through lost of practise and a good teacher to guide you. I have a case where this is true: There is an oboist that goes to my school...in middle school he couldn't play the oboe hardly at all (if you could actually call that playing...but that's another story) after taking private lessons and lots of practise, he has actually become a fine player- not top level but decent for his age level. Sometimes I feel that the people on this board aren't here to give advice but to put others down and give them "hopless dreams" or to discourae others, like this whole entire thread....who cares if they pay isn't as good as a lawyer or doctor..If it's what you love to do and really have a true passion for, then do it and don't let anyone crush your dream or discourage you. Most of the responses, including mine, are just opinions and aren't based upon cold hard facts.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-05-10 05:34
If you want something bad enough and you are stubborn and determined, you can achieve anything... Just my opinion though. Everyone has made valid points.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2003-05-10 06:24
Somehow Nick's statement about wanting something bad enough and being determined reminds me of a Segovia quote about a pianist.
"She wanted to play badly and she did."
I am living proof that you can make a living a music with little talent and a lot of determination. But when I got there it was not really all that great. Like Mark's experience I expect. I've moved on.
As to my kid majoring in music? I have told him to take at least a business minor so he can sell himself. He's looking at a duel major, music and physics...maybe math.
I also think that one should get an education to become an educated person. The trend in my neighborhood is to think of our colleges and universities as trade schools for corporations, rather than educational institutions. Let see we need computer scientists and teachers, lets churn a few of those out... no wait that was last year.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-10 07:03
Corey, you don't undertand what the word talent means. Look it up in your dictionary. You are either born with it or you aren't. That doesn't mean that somebody without much talent can't become pretty good with lots and lots of hard work and good teaching (like the oboist in your example).
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Author: Bass Clarinet
Date: 2003-05-10 08:45
My parents actually told me that they refused to pay for my college if I wanted to major in composition. You don't need a degree to compose. No one is going to come arrest me if I keep writing music without a degree...right?
I feel the same way about playing. Why do you need a degree to play a clarinet. I must admit, I do enjoy a good Denver Symphony Orchestra concert...but what exactly was learned in those years that couldn't have been learned with a theroy degree or an education degree, so that they have something to fall back on when an orchestra goes bankrupt? I know at my college, music theroy/composition majors are also trained to be professors, because unless you're really good, composing tends to not pay the bills.
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2003-05-10 11:54
I guess I should qualify my comments.
My post was intended to lament two facts. First, in light of all their training and talent which makes the world a better place in which to live, professional musicians are hideously underpaid. Second, there are simply very few orchestral positions to be had these days. Analagous to the second point, look at kids who play college sports. They're adept and gifted, but how many of them go on to play professionally? How about kids who study dance from the time they can walk, sustained by a dream that one day they'll be dancing on the Broadway stage, and then they are confronted by the harsh realities of that job market?
In the specific case of Corey, let me also qualify my statement that I'm not saying he shouldn't major in music. It's a wonderful thing if a young person wants to teach or use the music degree for something other than an orchestral position. I'm simply saying that if he thinks his talent and education will get him a position in an orchestra, he could very well be mistaken. Im still a proponent of kids getting a liberal arts degree in college regardless of what they eventually want to do because, unlike a degree in business, liberal arts round them out as human beings. In my case, I always knew I'd end up in some sort of business (actually I became a lawyer), but nonetheless I sought and obtained a degree in english with an emphasis on humanities.
My post was primarily a reflection of how badly I feel for my teacher's situation. He is an incredibly talented musician as are all the other players in the Florida Philharmonic, and it's a shame that he's about to lose the job he worked so hard to obtain. Fortunately for him, he's also an incredibly talented teacher and can easily fill his days doing that.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2003-05-10 12:29
The above posts caused me to ask myself the following question. "How many times have I paid to listen to a live performance of classical music in the last year?" The answer is sobering and embarrassing.
In order for performing musicians to be paid, someone must pay to hear them perform. It is so easy now to listen to just about any music made anywhere in the world by popping in a CD or downloading an MP3 or MIDI file. If we really want to do something about the pitiable state of pay for performing musicians in this country, we should all go out this weekend and pay to listen to a live acoustic performance. And we should keep doing it.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-05-10 14:40
Phat Cat wrote: "...If we really want to do something about the pitiable state of pay for performing musicians in this country, we should all go out this weekend and pay to listen to a live acoustic performance..."
- and perhaps some of the larger major corporations could increase their sponsorship and donations to (at least ) the orchestras in their home state. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, et. al. certainly could make a difference.
- and how about the Federal government doing a bit more to support the arts in this country? ...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-05-10 14:53
GBK wrote:
>
> - and how about the Federal government doing a bit more to
> support the arts in this country? ...GBK
Remember, getting the federal government in the US involved means giving up local control - the money always has strings attached.
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-05-10 18:31
I think y'all have moved a bit past Irwin's point. Let's get basic with it.
How much help is a Master's in Music(Theory/Composition/Instrument) etc., going to help when you are sitting in the Bankers chair trying to float a loan to keep a roof over your head, or finance a car, or get a mortgage low enough to keep up the payments. Music is lovely, music sooths the savage breast,and all that good stuff--but very very rarely does it feed a family of four--consistantly, each month.
Proof of the pudding is in the eating. Because their wages were so good the pit musicians in New York were picketing just because they thought the tonal structure and quality of their product would be sub-par with less instrumentation. Sure, that must have been the answer!.
Bob A
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Author: Corey
Date: 2003-05-10 21:16
The savage breast, eh? LOL I'm sorry I couldn't resist....I knew you meant the savage beast.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-05-10 21:20
Corey...You are not correct.
The actual quote is: "Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast, To soften rocks, or bend a knotted oak." ...GBK
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-05-10 22:06
Trying to make a living in music is not unlike trying to make a living in any number of fields that people can view as either vocation or avocation. The competition is tremendous, and people don't necessarily drop out of it just because they can't make it work full-time. Is the music degree cost-effective in that sense? Probably not.
However, there is much to be said for the general level of education that comes from college. Having a music degree might not make you a living, but you still become (hopefully) a fine musician. There is a tremendous return on this in terms of quality-of-life. I know a number of fine musicians who took it as far as they could in college and then got their masters or a post-baccalaurate [sic] certificate in another area. They have good incomes in other professions and are highly proficient musicians who are amateur only in terms of their compensation.
If we are going to let the art die because we're not getting paid full-time to maintain it, we are in sad shape. If seen gigs drop tremendously in my area since 9/11. But I still log plenty of times with community bands. And what have I found? A very satisfying experience working with other players who have professional credentials--credentials which are often superior to my own.
It's not what I wanted--and I'm sure it's not what most of them wanted--but life goes on. Personally, I have been thrilled to work as a private teacher.
It's a sad thing that musicians are so poorly compensated, but this is analogous to a lot of situations in the arts. That's no reason to turn away from our ambitions.
Allen Cole
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-05-11 00:13
Not to worry Corey. At 78 I've seen plenty of both:Savage beasts and savage breasts.
Bob A
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-11 02:34
i also would like to clarify that my comments about music don't apply to anyone on this board. I am just saying in general.
Corey-
What you said "practicing and getting private lessons". That is cultivating talent. You either have talent or you do not but then again some people say there is no such thing as talent, just hard work. Either way, if one has talent, they can work and practice and cultivate it and turn into a great player, but if one doesn't have talent they can still try but more than likely they wont be as good as a talented player. In order to be a sucessful player I think one needs talent and hard work (great social skills, lots of luck and must really love it but we won't touch those right now).
sorry if this isn't the most optimist way of saying it, it is just bluntly honoest.
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Author: Jas
Date: 2003-05-11 16:31
Ahh... the great debate continues.
Just an example...
I have seen a couple of great friends "quit their dayjobs" for a full time "career" in music... a couple of whom are bachelors livin' on their own, and some in double income families. One, has given up a 50-thousand a year job and is now making WAY less than half that, playin' jazz gigs and teaching. So, what's the point? Well, I have never seen him happier, never seen his eyes brighter nor his demeanor more relaxed. He plays, practices and perpetuates the trade. Don't think I've ever heard tell of him discouraging anybody from joining the biz!
Now... quiz time! Is he an exception to rule? Or, does he measure success quite differently?
There, but for a lack guts, go I?
Suckin' it up and lovin' my music,
Jas
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-05-11 18:14
Ah Yes! But what does the little wife and kiddies say at dinner time?
I recognized very early that my technique, talent, and DISCIPLINE, would never take me to the top. Sooo? A bird in the hand (paying well) is better than a handful of bird do-do.
Bob A
Post Edited (2003-05-11 19:17)
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Author: CK
Date: 2003-05-11 23:54
Irwin:
About majoring in music post. Well , I know your teacher, he has played
a few gigs for me and yes being in music can have its ups and downs
as with many other artistic careers. As a clarinetist, woodwind doubler,
college teacher, arranger and owner of a music business, former
clarinetist with the Miami Philharmonic( which went bankrupt prior to
the FPO forming), former Honolulu Symphony Utility Clar. and an active
freelancer on all Woodwinds, Contractor etc, with a MM degree I
certainly have experienced the frustrations and fruits of a life in
Music. However, sometimes the key to success is to be persistent,
versatile, talented, hard working and open to new directions and
posibilities. Yes, I have two kids, wife, house, car payments etc.
and the demise of the FPO is very sad for South Florida and I know
many of the players on a personal level as well. There are many
opportunities in music for success and each person must define their
own values for what that is.
So consider this another perspective to be considered.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-05-12 11:35
On secondary and tertiary education...
If you are a player of a 'niche' instrument in limited demand, then the odds are certainly stacked in favor of the current players retaining their positions.
If you are contemplating an advanced degree in Music study, it will serve you well to be in pursuit of a composition course, so that you can write pieces for your own performance (The Billy-Bob Thornton method.)
I suppose the reason the '1/2 of all college graduates fail to find employment in their chosen field' stat gets trotted out is that many of us pursue our interests, and these may not have any economic validity.
I'm not saying the world needs more MBAs (the last crop did such a wonderful job running up the tech bubble and eroding my 401k, thanks) but if you enter a school of higher education anticipating more demand for your services, then you should be learning how to fix my plumbing.
Being a professional musician is like making the endless series of cuts to enter the NBA; if you don't think you will make the grade - you won't.
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Author: rockymountainbo
Date: 2003-05-12 14:37
If I go for a Master's in Music, like I plan to do, it wouldn't be necessarily for a career in music. It would be for self-gratification. I think our societies put too much emphasis on going to college to learn a trade. What happened to the universities being about academics and learning?
I know that doesn't help the ones who went into it to help their careers, but at least I am ok with it.
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Author: supernova_khr
Date: 2003-05-12 17:41
I have a friend with a recently completed PhD in music composition. He's currently working as a computer system administrator. The reason...there are few jobs available in music composition that will pay the bills for a family of 4 with two small children. However, he doesn't regret the degree, and does music performance evenings and weekends. He still composes when he has time. If a faculty position comes available anywhere in the country, he applies. But, having that computer background is a definite plus.
So, what's my point? I don't see anything wrong with going for the music degree if that's what you love doing. But, also, keep fiscal reality in mind. A double major, with music and something else economically viable might be a good idea.
kay
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2003-05-12 19:01
As for the comments bemoaning the fact that a musician's salary is not sufficient to support a stay-at-home wife, how about entering the 21st Century? Even among my college-educated friends, few in any field make enough money to support a non-working spouse without considerable sacrifice. Those old attitudes about "the man is the breadwinner" are also troubling because they contribute to the persistent wage disparity between men and women.
To Corey, go ahead, major in music and have a rewarding 4 years! If you're worried about future jobs, go to a university (not a music conservatory) with a well-rounded program and make sure you expose yourself to the world outside of the practice room.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-12 19:31
A music major may actually be the *best* preparation for a non-music career.
First, you learn to *do* something difficult and complex - playing an instrument.
Second, music theory and music history are impossible to study without actually mastering the material. There's no such thing as "music theory appreciation."
Third, you must discipline yourself to work at something every day over a period of years.
None of these achievements is easy, and none is exactly common in college undergraduate courses.
IBM, among other demanding employers, recruits more music majors than anything except computer science majors.
Finally, music is the most glorious of arts. It pays you back for the rest of your life, even if you don't continue to play, and a lot more if you do continue.
Music is a great major. Music is seldom a great career, but it's a great preparation for any career.
My wife is a PhD musicologist who's now a bank vice president. I'm a lifelong clarinetist, now a lawyer. Neither of us would trade the music background for anything, though neither of us could make a living in music. For myself, and I'm pretty sure for my wife, I think neither of us would have done as well without the intense concentration on music in college. Certainly neither of us would wish to have grown up without music.
This has been discussed several times:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=75641&t=75284
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=52044&t=51816
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=51787&t=51736
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=24038&t=23981
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2003-05-13 14:37
Use college as a way to expand your world and mind: taste all the intellectual treats that the educational banquet has to offer. Once you find the field that interests you go for it.
Ron D
Post Edited (2006-03-06 18:12)
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Author: Jennifer
Date: 2003-05-13 22:02
I have two thoughts that might add to this discussion. First, no matter how saturated a field is, if you have exceptional ability, you will succeed. Second, music as a major is highly respected if you intend to do graduate work in another field. Music majors have some of the highest acceptance rates for medical school and law school here in the United States. It seems that having the discipline to practice hours a day on the same few notes for months is exactly the kind of dedication that admissions committees for the toughest post grad schools are looking for.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-13 23:43
Good point, Jennifer, and - if you happen to be a interested in teaching generally (especially adults) - you can easily do post graduate study and teach English as a Second Language (TSOL) - it's always good to have a few strings to your bow. One of the Executives at the place I work has a BSc and MSc but she also has music degrees, too, which she adds to her business qualifications.
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Author: supernova_khr
Date: 2003-05-14 02:09
Ron Jr said:
A music major may actually be the *best* preparation for a non-music career.
First, you learn to *do* something difficult and complex - playing an instrument.
Second, music theory and music history are impossible to study without actually mastering the material. There's no such thing as "music theory appreciation."
Third, you must discipline yourself to work at something every day over a period of years.
None of these achievements is easy, and none is exactly common in college undergraduate courses
....
I would disagree with the statement "none is exactly common in college undergraduate courses" It applies to physics, chemistry, mathematics, engineering, the study of foreign languages....and many other college majors. There's also no such thing as "quantum mechanics appreciation", or "structural engineering appreciation".
I personally majored in mathematics with a music minor. I also paid for college myself, not coming from a family with the means to support me in such endeavors...and certainly not able to support me after I finished if it turned out there wasn't a job with adequate income. Because of that experience, that's why I stated " keep fiscal reality in mind. A double major, with music and something else economically viable might be a good idea." And, unfortunately, college today is a much pricier proposition than it was when I was in school 25 years ago. I'll be able to contribute some to my children's secondary education, but after doing that, will not be able to support them after they graduate, and also support myself. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend a music major to them, unless they also have a double major in something they can get a job in. Of all my musician friends, who were quite talented, only one made it into a viable career (he plays with a major symphony in Europe). All the others are quite happy they had physics or accounting or business or teaching college degrees in addition to their music education.
Cheers,
Kay
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-14 14:54
Kay -
The quotes are mine. I let the rhetoric get a bit windy, but I think my point is at least partly valid. The best "hard science" undergraduates learn to think and work, and you were obviously one of them.
But my experience as an English major, at least at the University of Tennessee a few years ago, showed me that few students, or even graduate students, reached that level.
Music has the unique requirement of performance, which gives music majors both a goal and a clear evaluation of accomplishment, based on professional standards.
Finally, and taking nothing away from the sciences, music gives me something I can do and enjoy with others. Scientists talk to one another, but to me, playing music is on a different -- dare I say higher -- level, if only because it involves physical action as well as thought.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2003-05-15 14:38
Jobs that pay well are usually based on a large demand for the services involved, and a small supply of individuals who either can perform the service, or are willing to perform the service.
The problem with careers in music (especially symphonies, jazz, etc.) is that there are a lot more people willing to perform them, than there are people willing to pay for them. Thus the large number of amatuer and semi-pro musicians.
If we could form the NSL (National Symphony League) and have televised contests between the symphonies sponsored by caviar and champagne companies, then we might be able to form farm symphonies where "rookies" could give it a shot.
Oh well, guess I'll sign off now to go practice "rapping".
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Author: Micaela
Date: 2003-05-16 03:47
I'm not sure if a degree from a conservatory prepares the recipient very well for careers other than performance and teaching. After having investigating many different colleges (for myself), I concluded that, while I think I do have the dedication to go to a conservatory, that it would be narrowing my options too much. The academic courses required of most students are close to fluff. The conservatories make no bones about their purpose: to make you the best player you can be, not to educate you in the liberal arts with a specialization in music. For this reason, I decided that, a liberal arts college would give me a more rounded education since I have no desire to abandon abstract thought. The distinction between a degree in performance and in academic music (my goal) is very important. A degree encompassing fairly wide distribution requirements in all academic disciplines is a very different education from a degree primarily consisting of performance work. I think the more academic degree, which probably has limited appeal for the future professional musician, offers many more choices for the future. However, since it decreases the likelihood of a career in performance, some people will never consider it.
I'm late on this thread because all I've been doing is taking Advanced Placement tests. If I were going to a conservatory, I wouldn't bother with those, either. Most don't take the credit.
Micaela
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-16 14:25
Just to add a few more comments to one of the more interesting discussion boards....
I would certainly think twice before doing music if I had to do it all over again...I would probably been more unhappy as an accountant or a doctor. Sadly though, I think one point should be brought forward, and that is Music and the Arts are in a very bad state of affairs. Support for music ensembles like the Houston Symphony and Flordia Phil and the Montreal Symphony is way down....I am talking way down! This is not a great scene for any orchestral player no matter the instrument.
The orchestra I am in is also in a very tought state. Does this affect the way I play? You bet you it does! When one has bills and a tough schedule of work financial problems with any group has a dehabilitating effect on morale of the music makers in that group.....all across the US and Canada we are seeing groups that never had trouble suddenly post articles in papers on how tenative their situation is. Chicago Symphony has had trouble maintaining financial support is certain areas of funding.
What does this say about the current culture we are in? Well, it means the age of the CD and the TV and the Computer all have had an effect on the way we live. Orchestral concerts, musicals, recitals and such fare are not really as popular as they once were. Even ten years ago audiences were way up in comparison to today......
If one is interesting in a career in music I say great. But, I also have to add that you can't expect it to be easy sailing. Musicians have to be pretty hearty and tough in order to sustain a lasting career in music. Also, good players tend to do a number of things other than just playing. Teaching, and recitals and masterclass teaching also are definite neccessity if you are going to make it on the "scene".
I certainly think that for some reason we are going backwards when it comes to the arts. These are also things that heighten the enjoyment of life....certainly it could only be better to go to a concert than to sit at home an watch some reality show which is unrealistic.....
David Dow
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2003-05-16 16:43
How about a reality show which follows a group of classical musicians vying for a rare spot in a world class symphony? VH1 did a very successful version with rock bands called (I think) Bands on the Run. And then there's that stupid American Idol show. Maybe a classical version would create more public interest. Especially if it's full of backstabbing, sleeping around and substance abuse. Where are the screenwriters out there?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-16 18:07
Hi Eileen,
Wasn't there a movie a decade or more back with Amy Irving and Richard Dreyfus called The Competition? There were a number of pianists competing in a concerto contest as I recall.
I think there were some of the same themes you suggested such as backstabbing, sleeping around, etc. Some great music in the film.
HRL
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Author: Clare
Date: 2003-05-18 20:36
Sorry guys, I've come late to this post but it struck a chord with me as I was remembering only this afternoon some advice my dear, wonderful clarinet teacher at school gave me on careers in music - think twice about it, because if you're doing something day-in, day-out to earn your daily crust, you may stop enjoying it and that's a sad, sad thing.
On the basis of his advice, I decided there and then that I would not pursue a career in music. I knew I had a lot of talent but I was not absolutely outstanding and, given how many clarinettists there were out there, that meant that I was not going to make it as a performer. And I knew I did not have the temperament to teach. My academic studies and subsequent career were in the fields of science and management, and I've got a lot out of that and never regretted my choice. But music is still a vital part of my life, that brings me immense joy and allows me to contribute creatively in the community in which I live.
A number of posts have rightly sought to separate the question of whether to major in music from whether to aim for a career in music. On the former, as others have said, you do a degree to demonstrate your capacity to learn, to develop your mind and your soul, not necessarily for specific job-related training. On the latter, you go for a career in music because (a) you believe it will be fulfilling and (b) you have the talent, dedication and commercial viability to make it work.
It would be lovely if we could all make a living doing something we love, even if other people aren't really keen to pay for us for the privelege. And, yes, it's sad that not all formerly great orchestras are able to stay in business and pay their musicians a living wage.
But it would be sadder still if we became so obsessed with "succeeding" with music that we viewed this solely in terms of being able to earn a living through our playing. Success is about far more than that. And being able to play, as an amateur, for the sheer joy of being able to is worth a lot - as so many of the posts on this BB demonstrate daily.
Going back to Irwin's original post, and sorry for getting on my soap-box, OF COURSE people should think twice about majoring in music or pursuing a career in music. But that's not because arts have hit some cataclysmic disaster, it's just because being a professional musician isn't either the be-all and end-all or the only way to fulfil your musical potential.
C
PS: Eileen, I had exactly the same thoughts about the stay-at-home wife comments - well said.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-19 14:50
If enjoying it was all it took to be a pro, I'd be one in a minute. The pleasure I get from playing never fades. I even felt good when I was in a military band playing parades.
Unfortunately, it also takes two things I don't have: (1) fast twitch muscle speed; and (2) absolute single-mindedness. When I tried to compete with people like Alan Balter, I realized that my fingers would never be quite fast enough, and when I tried to match his hours in the practice room, I realized that I had other interests, too.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-19 16:44
My advice (free and worth every cent!) to anyone considering majoring in music would simply be: If music performance is the ONLY thing you can do in the whole world, and/or the ONLY thing you want to do in the whole world, then go for a career playing music. But if there's ANYTHING else you also enjoy doing and/or do well, then do that, and keep music on the side as an avocation. Depressing, maybe, but the reality of the music world is that, for 99.99% of us, we would starve (ourselves at a minimum, and possibly our families too) if we had to make our living entirely by playing music.
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Author: JellyJazz
Date: 2003-05-19 19:55
if you have the dtermination you can do what ever you want...
Jelly Jazz
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Author: JellyJazz
Date: 2003-05-20 17:52
u need to learn not to be negative-ur not going to get anywhere if u think like that!
Jelly Jazz
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Author: jenna
Date: 2003-05-21 03:42
It's not negativity so much as realism.
For every 1 person that made it through by way of their determination, countless others struggled/are struggling.
As much as a lot of us would love to be professionals, odds are it will never happen.
I adore music, but I would never consider pursuing the professional career. I don't want to take something I love and turn it into a life or death, day after day, competitive chore.
jenna
jenna
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-21 14:53
JellyJazz,
I don't know how old your are or what you've accomplished in your life, but I'm 45 years old and have done a lot more and different things in that amount of time than many others do in an entire lifetime. I'm not spouting negative philosphy here, I believe I'm speaking from hard experience. By all means, if you want to do something, go for it! But if it's music you're going for, you'd better have a "Plan B", or be prepared for the possibility of waiting tables for the rest of your life. Save the cheerleading for the football field, please.
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Author: JellyJazz
Date: 2003-05-21 19:07
i'm a 16 yr old who has a lot of experience in music in answer to your question.
Jelly Jazz
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-05-21 19:35
JellyJazz...I sincerely admire your attitude in saying..."if you have the determination you can do whatever you want...". If people of your age wouldn't think so, who would? And I hope for your sake that you realize all of your dreams! But, overall, I am on David's side here (after all, I'm even older than he). I don't think he is trying to dash your hopes. Instead, he is trying to instill a dose of reality and to indicate that having a "Plan B" is common sense. Your statement sounds appealing but you must realize by now (if you don't as yet, you will later) that pure determination provides no guarantee of success at all, although determination perse deserves a lot of admiration. Some people say that "anyone can become president" (and if you consider the current holder of this office you would almost believe it!) but I hope you know that that is simply ridiculous.
Henry
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The Clarinet Pages
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