 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-05-08 17:44
I just read the recent thead about loudness, and this question may be a follow up to that.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=113147&t=113147
Ken Shaw refers to a 'ping' as part of our sound. (BTW, Ken's note and the older note he links to, are close to poetry, I think. Thanks, Ken.) I know Lisa Argiris at International Music Supply uses the word in describing sound. And I think I know what it is; I feel an extra vibration at a certain volume, on a good setup, on certain 'favorite' notes of my clarinet. I imagine it is part of making a sound that projects, that sounds good to listeners, that feels good to the player.
I understand it is only a word and that we have a tough time defining a lot of our more or less subjective words. But I'm curious about this one. Do many of you use it? Is there a measurable thing called 'ping'.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-05-08 18:03
PS Mark, or anyone, how does one search for a word like 'ping', without getting 'slipping', 'shopping', and so on?
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-05-08 23:02
Beat me to it msloss
Pong.......
It is what my engine does when I dont use high test gasoline.
Seriously.....it is like "warm or bright or dark sound"...we know it when we hear it.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-08 23:12
Hi,
I am familiar with this word and its relationship to clarinet sound. When I have a perfect reed (and all else is in excellent order - weather, ligature, embouchure, karma ), I get a ping sound out of almost all notes.
There is a distinct round center to each note that make thing seem to pop out whereas without the ping, the sound is not as well focused. I can hear this ping in others players (mostly professional and/or serious students of the clarinet). I have heard few amatures with this kind of sound.
HRL
PS I do have a Ping Answer 2 model putter that I really like as well.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-05-08 23:45
Ping is that mistical sound that a good Buffet is said to have.
I have played 9 - R13s and 2 Festivals at 6 Buffet dealers and haven't heard that ping.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-05-09 01:46
I love the ping - I think of it as a bell-like sound.
I got a lot more ping after I got my Greg Smith mp . . . and put it on my R13 of course!!!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-09 03:37
Hi All,
I get my ping on both my Selmer 9* and LeBlanc Dynamic 2. So much for the mythical/mystical Buffet ping exclusivity!
HRL
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-05-09 05:11
Is this the same of POP referred to in Yamaha ads?
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
Post Edited (2003-05-09 06:12)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-09 11:39
Once again the limits of the english language are brought to bear on a topic.
Ping in this matter I believe a certain "metal" quality in the sound. Maybe, what one would call a certain vibrancy and ringing quality which is bell like.
The threshold of language here is very nebulous, but in a good way ping can add sonority and fullness to an otherwise dull and overly lifeless dull sound.
Players like Leister and Boeykins have a real ping or ring on the sound no matter the note.
And no matter the dynamic it must always be present. A good private teacher can help in matters regarding this much misunderstood area of thought among clarinetists.
David Dow
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-05-09 14:36
Thanks, all. I appreciate your comment, David, that it should be present at any dynamic.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-05-09 16:10
Ping on Buffet? What are you talking about?! Only LeBlancs have it...
Seriously, I get a ping on some notes, I call it 'that sweet spot'.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-09 17:37
I think the "ping" comes from bringing out formants, which are strong upper partials associated with particular vowel sounds, rather than with pitch. In 1977, there was a wonderful article in the Scientific American called "The Acoustics of the Singing Voice," which discussed the subject. Fortunately, it is available online at http://www.zainea.com/voices.htm.
I recommend that everyone read this article, which shows how different tongue and palate positions can vary and add color to your tone.
Musicians have many ways of describing this. Singers (for example, Ponselle and Caruso) called it "squillo" ("ring" or "blast" in Italian). In my opinion, it's what's meant by a "centered sound."
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-09 18:45
Ponselle had an incredible sound...thanks for the wonderful analogy Ken Shaw.
David Dow
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Author: Avie
Date: 2003-05-09 19:28
I also recognize it as a ring rather than a ping but I will be on the lookout. Very interesting.
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2003-05-09 22:36
Ken, thanks for the great reference. Every musician should read it, but since it is somewhat technical, this geek will summarize some salient points.
Singers also have a concept of a “dark’ sound being desirable. Interestingly, spectrographic analysis indicates that singing voices judged to be “dark” consistently differ from normal spoken voices in that the lower partials are de-emphasized but the middle partials are considerably emphasized. [My note: At first it might be counterintuitive that reducing the lowest partials would seem “dark”, but strong emphasis of the middle partials will reduce the relative contribution of the higher partials that lead to shrillness. This middle partial emphasis fits nicely with Ken’s preferred terminology of “centered sound.”]
Formants are the natural resonance frequencies of the vocal chamber. By modifying the shape and size of various aspects of the vocal cavity, singers change the frequency and amplitude of their formants. In turn, the formants sculpt the overtone series (partials) of the sound waves (generated by the vocal chords) as they pass through the vocal chamber. For example, the characteristic sound of male opera singers is achieved by expansion of the pharynx and lowering the larynx. This combination effectively inserts an extra formant that actually shifts vowels. [Each vowel is just a different set of partial ratios]
When thinking about clarinet voicing, we must be cautious when attempting to apply the specific findings of this article about the effects of manipulating the oral cavity. The acoustical situation is quite different. In the case of singers, modifying the oral cavity essentially tunes a set of resonators that act on the partials of an air stream that has already been put into vibration by the vocal chords. In the case of clarinet players, the oral cavity manipulations are forming a non-vibrating air stream on its way to encountering the reed, which will then cause the air to vibrate. In short, for a singer the resonance occurs in the vocal chamber, while for a clarinetist the resonance occurs from the mouthpiece to the bell.
Perhaps “ping” is a specific shape of the envelope of the emphasized “dark” partials in which the upper members are given subtle emphasis. In this case you can have a "dark" sound that also has "ping."
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-05-10 06:53
Phat Cat wrote: "for a clarinetist the resonance occurs from the mouthpiece to the bell"
I'm not sure if that is completely true. Sound travels in all directions, so wouldn't the air inside your oral cavity and your chest will also vibrate?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-10 08:41
Hi Liquorice,
I'm not sure you are correct about the chest and the oral cavity vibrating. With an instrument, until the air coming from the lungs encounters an object that will vibrate, be it a reed or a mouthpiece, it is just a stream of air with no specific pitch that I can tell. In the case of a vocalist, the vocal cords are the vibrtaing body so the oral cavity has an aural function.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-05-12 19:07)
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Author: Rene
Date: 2003-05-10 09:18
In singing, it is called formant. It can be obvserved in spectrographic analysis. For a tenor, it is escpecially desirable to have high frequencies around 1000 Hz amplified. That is, what carries his voice over an orchestra. The italians call that the metallic shimmer in the voice.
I once did some simple analysis of my own voice (Bariton) and you can see the phenomenon even with that equipment. In the higher C-F range the low basic frequency is weaker than the higher ones.
The theory that this is produced by resonance is misleading. In fact, you need an open throat to procude a good carrying voice. A closed throat may look like a simple way center the tone, but to the expense of sounding dull and with the danger of being constantly flat. In Germany, we call that "Knödeln". In general, the throat works like a sound filter. That is not exaclty the meaning of "resonance". The sound itself is produced by the voice cords, and here and in the sorounding muscles lies most of the secret of good sound production.
The clarinet of course is a resonance tube. However, I have yet failed to make any difference with the way may throat is formed. However, I am only an amateur. The most prominent differences I experience come from my blowing, then the reed, the reed and the reed again :-)
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Author: Phat Cat
Date: 2003-05-10 12:08
Liquorice:
Quoting the article,
"Resonances outside the vocal tract such as in the head or the chest, cannot contribute appreciably to the singer's acoustic output in view of the great extent to which sound is attenuated as it passes through tissues."
Even more so for clarinet playing since the primary source of vibration is inside the mouthpiece chamber.
Rene:
If you read the article, careful spectral measurements and X-rays of the vocal cavity show that the way an open throat (expansion of the pharynx and lowering the larynx) produces the "good" sound in male singers is by changing the formants. It is all about resonance in the vocal cavity.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-05-10 13:54
>Ping in this matter I believe a certain "metal" quality in the sound.
>Maybe,what one would call a certain vibrancy and ringing quality
>which is bell like.
I seen a metal Selmer clarinet mouthpiece (HS**) for sale and was thinking about this thread. The price on this one was up to 226.00. Maybe a new market emerging for metal mouthpieces. I suspect some of the ping is acoustical feedback from the playing environment.
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Author: RRMatthew
Date: 2003-05-11 02:42
To help me find the ping, my teacher tells me to think like a singer and imagine the sound coming from the top of the head - forehead really. Says you should feel it in your sinuses. When doing it right, the sound really carries.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-12 17:24
Rene and Phat Cat -
The larynx and pharynx come after the vocal cords but before the clarinet reed, so they have a bigger influence on the voice than the clarinet.
Nevertheless, I'm sure the vocal cavity has an important influence on clarinet tone, even though most of the resonating occurs in the mouthpiece. Otherwise, every clarinetist would sound the same, and we couldn't influence the sound we make by varying the vocal cavity.
After all, there's air on both sides of the reed, and the reed creates vibration in the mouth as well as in the clarinet. I, and other people, can hear the difference when I change the position of my tongue and pharynx, and varying the resonance inside the mouth clearly has an effect on the reed's vibration.
The larynx is further away, so I'm not sure how much difference changing its position would make, but it's connected with the vocal cavity and thus in principle it could have an effect.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-05-12 21:46
Ken, I think you have said this well: "and the reed creates vibration in the mouth as well as in the clarinet." The clarinet is the major sound generator but the human on the other side of the reed must contribute something. Our heads are designed to transmit and color our voices. My own teacher doesn't use the word 'ping', but when I was shopping for clarinets, he attempted to describe a sort of buzz or resonance he felt in his head with the right setup. He attributed it to the 'right' clarinet, but I think it's the right 'complete system', including mouthpiece and human being. And the whole system is complex; there can not be single simple explanations of hardly anything about making good sound.
I asked the original question, and I take from this discussion that this word does describe something good about clarinet sound. I will continue to try to make it happen, whatever it is.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-13 18:30
A metal mouthpiece will certainly not add any ping to the sound.
No matter the substance the individual affects and decides the tonal characteristics of their own tone.
Material is one part of a very complicated process that goes into creating the sound being described above.
Resonace and tone are two very different ideals, and therefore a good teacher should be able to see and hear how you affect the air column of the instrument when playing....mouthpieces are one of just a number of things that go into creating a good sound.
Sometimes all we hear about is mouthpiece hype...this can be very dangerous.
The objectives is to realize a beautiful unforced clear sound with alot of defintion.
Words like dark and bright seem to mean different things to different teachers. the danger lies in then working towards something rather than within the parameter you are currently in developmentally.
a fine teacher is also a guide. they know when and how a student needs more/less of a given technique in order to succeed.
vocalists are quite lucky in that the voice is also part of the body.
If more clarinet players thought this way clarinet players would be less boring to listen to!
David Dow
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Author: Herb Huey
Date: 2003-05-14 19:56
I did spectral studies of the clarinet back in the late 70's as a Physics lab project. I found that lower priced clarinets (e.g. Bundy and Noblet) had a tendency to overemphasis the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th harmonics (partials) compared to a Selmer 10G and Buffet R-13.
The differences were clearly evident in the quality of the sound when playing the same notes or scales of the 4 clarinets since you had the fundamental tone and higher amplitudes in the higher harmonics with the better clarinets.
Unfortunately, my sample was limited to the 4 clarinets and 3 players; one beginner and two advanced college students (I was one of them).
Herb
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