 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2003-05-07 00:15
I play in a trio, drums, accordian and then there is me. Saturday night was the gig from hell. We set up the amplification system in the afternoon and had it working perfectly, or so I thought. Comes the gig Saturday evening. The accordian player has two large speakers and then whatever you call it that his accordian plugs into, plus what he plugs the clarinet amplifier (his amplifier) into. I was using a Shure microphone that is mine and pretty new. As the evening went on, I could tell I was not being amplified. I kept tapping my mike and could barely hear it. I told accordian player so. He said he would turn me up. I don't think he did. What I am wondering is, is there a separate way I can amplify myself and not be at all connected with whatever it is he is doing on his side of the stage? I am technically challenged and therefore I cannot write here what the equipment is since I don't know, other than that it doesn't work right for me. I would appreciate any comments on this. Being overwhelmed by an accordian is not my idea of a good time.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-05-07 03:11
Gigs should not be wars between the guy who controls the faders and the rest of the band but unfortunately it happens. Even when it is not a control issue, if the guy at the controls is neurotic, there is no telling where things will end up. Best if you have a dedicated sound person who is not playing and can listen objectively from the house. If you can't do this, the leader's squeeze might be imposed upon to provide sufficient influence to get more level for you.
Your onliest other choice is to get your own mike, amp, boom, cables, poles, etc. The gadget freak in you will be pleased.
This is always a dollars-to-donuts issue. How deep are your pockets? Can you pay for an entire sound system: mixer, power amp(s), house speakers, monitors, poles, cables, cabinet, and a sound tech?
A system with separate levels for monitors and house is best. What you hear on stage may be radically different from what the audience hears, which is why you need the sound person's take on things. The tech can set monitor levels so you like what you sound like, and house levels so the audience likes what you sound like. Put money into the house speakers; use something minimal for monitors (lots of people may argue with this.) A couple of old home stereo speakers may just be adequate for monitors.
In the band with the neurotic bandleader on the faders, the one gig we had a sound guy on was really pleasant. He has a degree in polemics or something, and kept his terminology one step ahead of the band leader all night so he wouldn't fiddle with things. At the end of the gig the controls were just about exactly where they were after the sound check, the audience could hear everything, and so could we.
A lot of keyboard and bass players have their own amps, which can function as stand-alone systems, or as monitors IF they have line outputs that can be run into the main board. I heard a fiddle player who travelled with her own little system: a small equilizer with some reverb, and a small monitor speaker. This gave her quite a bit of control over her sound, which then fed to the main system.
What model is your Shure mike? The SM-57 is highly directional, the SM-58 is similar but has a wider pattern. (Can't translate these into the newer model numbers.) There are other threads maybe a year or more old on use of microphones. I like the 58 better, positioned off center and slightly below the bell, so as to pickup sound from the bell and coming out the tone holes. The 57 only works pointed straight up your bell; notes with all your fingers down will really honk, and notes with all your fingers up will not be heard. There are some combo boom-lets with two mikes that clip to your bell - these are expensive but effective in picking up both open and closed notes (also discussed in the prior thread.) Buddy DeFranco gets a lot of milage out of what the sound guy at the ICA convention in 1998 called "a funky old lavalier mike", but the closed tones tended to get lost. Pickups integarted into barrel or mouthpiece have similar problems, in addition to picking up key click.
|-(8^)
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-05-07 04:31
Percussion, accordion and clarinet... and you need a mike??? ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
What an awful experience. Don't do it again.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-05-07 05:16
Carol said: "...Being overwhelmed by an accordian is not my idea of a good time..."
Most of the accordianists I've ever known (or played with) have been quite underwhelming...GBK
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2003-05-07 14:18
Yes, the accordian player is probably the most neurotic person I've ever known. He is also subject to mood swings which adds to the general mayhem. I don't think that he is turning me down on purpose, but you never know. We were booked for four gigs at the same place, one down and three to go. The next one is coming up May 30th. I can't afford to buy much except I was thinking of getting my own amplifier. Yes, he (accordian) does fiddle with the controls because he gets nervous. I am going to have to enlist the aid of the chef who is our next door neighbor and also was instrumental (pun) in getting us hired there. He is batty for the clarinet. At any rate, I guess if I can alert the chef to the problem and maybe he needs an excuse to get out of the kitchen and into the frying pan, he could come out and check once in awhile. Jazz accordian and clarinet actually is very pretty. I don't care much for accordians other than that. Sssh!! Who said that!
Thanks for your help on this. I was playing so hard I thought I hurt myself.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-05-07 15:37
There was a Far Side cartoon some years ago, who's captions pretty much sum up everone's predisposition: "Welcome to Heaven, here is your harp / Welcome to Hell, here is your Accordion."
The accordion is much maligned, but the numbers are right. Plays chords and melody, carries pretty well without amplification, minimal floor space, is portable and uses no power. The perfect strolling instrument. On the other hand, if you don't need to stroll and have the space, a keyboard is a much better bet.
A lot of stores carry small Roland keyboard amps and Yamaha powered speakers that may do the trick for you. An amp and speaker cabinet all in one piece, a couple of inputs, some basic EQ, reasonably priced - could be all you need. Maybe you can find one used, or better yet borrow one to try - lots of keyboard players have these things.
Regards
|-(8^)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-05-07 16:39
I frequently play with accordion...in fact I rarely play without one! We hardly ever play in places that really need amplification, but then again, we don't have the drums to worry about, and when we're using a sound system we have a sound tech to balance everything...and they usually get it right!
Katrina
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-07 21:21
Hi Carol,
I bought a small Peavey guitar amp many years ago and just used a Shure mike plugged into the unit. I also had sax, flute, and clarinet pickups as well and just plugged in. The unit was fairly heavy as this was in the old tube days but it still works fine today. You need something like that setup.
IMHO you do not need to be hooked up to a rig that has a mixer, poles, and large speakers; keep it simple. With my setup. I just wheeled it in to the gig (small wheels on the bottom), plugged in, powered up, and dared any accordian player to get in the way!
HRL
PS Your story reminds me of an acordian player by the name of Carl that I used to work with about 50 years ago. He really only played in the key of C so I really learned to play all sorts of tunes in the key of D. I haven't thought about him for years. The name of the group was, of course, the Carl Lxxxxx Quartet.
Post Edited (2003-05-08 05:16)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-05-07 22:19
To paraphrase The Bard -- "First, kill all the Accordian players".
Hank's right, get your own rig. There are some very nice and very compact amps you can get now that would do the trick.
Most importantly, learn lesson #1 of live performance -- get there early, and check your levels. Don't play a note meant for public consumption until you are confident of the sound. Then write down the levels, put masking tape over the knobs, or do something else to ensure nothing gets changed before the downbeat.
BTW, amplified accordian? In that format trio, the only one who should need any kind of volume lift is you. Give that guy a smack for us and tell him to turn it down. Nobody wants to hear that dialed up to "11".
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Author: David Stringer
Date: 2003-05-07 23:19
Hi Carol,
In my town we have several large music stores that rent equipment of all sorts really cheaply. As a bonus, the rental department is usually happy to sell off its older units. Shure mics, for instance, with a dent in the snowball are half the price of a new one. They rent all sorts of amps and stands, too.
David
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-05-08 01:16
Yes, you don't need all the bells and whistled. A "keyboard amp" or "powered speaker" may do everything you need. I have one and it really does yoeman service for me.
Adding a small mixer to it, I have run up to 8 inputs: vocal and instrumental mikes, and pickups, as well as a CD player to use during breaks. And, I can put my guitar effects box on a mixer effects loop, so that the mando player can be dialed into it when I am not using it.
Listen before you buy. The music store plugged a drum machine into a name brand keyboard amp and it sounded dull, dull, dull. Then they did the same with their off brand model and the difference was dramatic: bright cymbals, full-sounding bass drum, crisp snare, etc.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2003-05-08 04:14
I am so glad to get these responses. It will help me get my act together before we face the public again. This accordian player's name is Karl and he does play lots in the key of C. We don't use music, play by ear, and have a two page list of songs to refer to. I was reading it over before the gig and thinking, why does he get all the easy keys? Thanks again, all. He has his own polka band or whatever you call it, this is a whole new thing for him. Our trio is called "Sentimental Journey." I gave up playing in the polka band. I felt comatose after 3 hours of that.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-08 04:20
Hi Carol,
Hey, maybe my Carl has found a new location, changed his name slightly, but still can't play in anything other than the key of C.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-05-08 05:21)
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-05-08 14:28
Mebbe you need a better cohort-in-crime. The accordion I work with has blazing technique when he needs it, knows lots of tunes, plays in any key, and is a nice enough guy so I can overlook his neuroses, which largely disappear once he gets the squeezebox strapped on. His aging instrument plays sharp, so I use a *really* short barrell. And its built-in pickup is anemic, which the preamp adjustments in my mixer help a lot - now his fader and ours are set about the same.
Regards
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Author: Matt Snyder
Date: 2003-05-08 15:25
Amplification for clarinet is never easy. The two-mic solution is great if you can set it up that way but very hard to adjust the sound with. A few years ago I happened to be flush with cash and dropped $400 on the world's best clarinet mic: the SD Systems LCM 82, which attaches mics to the bell and over the upper joint, and runs them through a preamp from which you control the volume (including ratio between the two mics) and tone equalization. It's a little cumbersome to move around with because of all the wires, but the payoff is a fantastic sound, infinitely superior to any regular microphones.
The key thing is having the preamp to adjust your own levels. You sound check conservatively and keep the volume on the preamp below 5, so you have somewhere to go when the accordion player (or guitarist, or keyboard player, or drummer etc.) start playing too loud. Be self-sufficient: bring your own gear, meaning the mics and amp. Don't worry about buying a sound system, that's just getting too crazy. If you're playing small rooms you won't need it, and if you're playing a festival they'll most likely have their own system, so why waste the money?
Matt Snyder
msnyder@alumni.indiana.edu
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-05-09 06:02
Can't help with the amplification problem, but who calls the tunes? Seems it's his list - why not make up your own list in your keys and negotiate?
You know...........really, any instrument is good if it is played well, even accordions, I'm particularly fond of the Cajun style of accordion actually.
And........ banjos too, I can even point you to an excellent comb & paper player from yesteryear - Red McKenzie!!
We shouldn't be critical of [players] other instruments - everyone has their own story. Reminds me of the old gag though.............(Q) What do you call someone who hangs around with musicians? (A) A drummer!
JK
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-05-11 00:24
Well Carol, I guess we can be sure that Karl/Carl will never be your "main squeeze"? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Would any of our good folk consider that you might change your set-up and instrument used to naturally boost your own output?
Post Edited (2003-05-11 01:27)
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2003-05-11 01:38
There is a lot to be said for having your own equipment. I don't and sometimes go to electric blues jams. Sometimes this is fine and sometimes the sound is rotten. I try to grab a mike that a singer has been using.
A friend of mine is a folk singer and recently recounted her worst gig. She, her then husband who played penny whistle a third person who sang and played guitar were hired to sing sheep related songs at a
wool festival. (The Darby Ram, New South Wales, etc) They were told to expect around 500 people. She was assured that there would be a sound system.
Well it turns out they were playing to a thousand people who were sitting outdoors. The sound system was a single bullhorn.
Everything they prepared went out the window. They got into the crowd, ran a sing along, and sang themselves hoarse.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-05-12 00:39
There you go. If you don't have your own sound system, you will have to let everyone else pull the wool over your eyes.
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Author: clarinetchick
Date: 2006-01-09 00:10
Arabic accordion is too cool for school....
I too am in search of a portable system to amplify my clarinet. I play mostly Turkish and Arabic music and you'd be amazed how many doumbek cowboys want to thunder over top of me with their hand drums. They have even drowned out my zurna, which I requires wear earplugs while practicing!
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-09 01:21
Attachment: 419mic.jpg (425k)
The absolute best clarinet mic -amplification that I've found for clarinet is an AKG 419 clip on mic, with a device similar to a lyre that I put on the bell section and clip the mic to. I use a Backun zebra wood bell that increases the sound pick up on the notes below the microphone and raises those 5db, as well as tames the added weight of the mic. The zebra wood bell and mic weigh .5oz less than the stock Yamaha bell.
I've had the SDA on trial, but being that it was hard to change beween instruments I found it unusable on gigs. Plus I thought the sound was inferior. I don't understand why anyone would want to aim a mic into the bell of a clarinet to begin with. If you wouldn't stick your ear there to hear it don't stick a mic in that spot. My AKG rig is absolutly easy to work when I end up on a gig where someone other than myself is working sound. I have 2 versions 1 wireless, the other phatom powered wired. All I do is tell the sound man everything at 12 oclock, bass at 1, and it sounds very natural.
When recording in the studio, I only use ribbon mics into grace preamps. AEA makes a great mic which I use, but I've found the old shure SM 300s awsome.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-01-09 05:54
Attachment: ClarinetWithMic.jpg (26k)
I have tried the microphone Tom suggests here and it is excellent. One time an engineer had that one for me in a concert instead of the regular SM58 everybody uses for every instrument and it sounded so much better.
About a year ago I bought what now I think is the best clarinet microphone for live concerts (recordings are a totally different issue). It is the AMT WS model, which I show in the attached picture. It is the most natural sounding mic I know. I haven't tried the SD System clarinet mic though.
The AMT WS I have is wired, but I was told it is possible to get a wireless version.
For studio recordings the best sound I got was from microphones made by a company called Beyerdynamic.
But more important than all this is a good soundperson.
Good luck.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-09 10:57
The tragedy is, of course, that many 'sound guys' are half-deaf from learning their trade. A really good one is like gold dust.
Like the picture, clarnibass. As we should all know, all those little holes are there to let the sound out.
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2006-01-09 14:15
This is not an answer to the question, but basically, after 30 years of tenor sax in loud bands with lame sound men, I've given up the battle and gone to no amplification at all. I do not depend on playing for my livelyhood, so I have the luxury of deciding when and where I'll play. I now play with your basic jazz quartet ( horn, piano, bass, drums), a 15 piece big band and a really neat little quartet made up of clarinet with mandolin, bass and guitar. Not having to deal with sound equipment is the only way to spend my "declining years " ( sorry...I'm turning 50 in a couple of days). If you decide to fight it out, being in control of your own equipment is the answer.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-01-10 23:57
With the optimum pickup, what kind of reinforcement equipment (amps and speakers) do you use?
Thanks for reviving this thread!
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-11 02:33
I'm useing a Yamaha O1V digital mixer, with the EQ set flat but with sight compressor setting of 2.5-1. I use Powered Yamaha speakers 400s. I love the sound of this rig. THe 419 AKG with the Backun Zebra would bell is absolutely invisiable to when playing. But cool as hell to look at! I have had some amazing players not realize I was amplified on concerts because it sounds like a clarinet. It sounds like me. I'm old enought to remember playing VFW halls with a Shure Vocal master and a SM57 and having it sound like crap!
I don't understand the major problem people have with the idea of amplifying the clarinet. It is way mo betta than blowing your brains out on a 45 min Hora! I've used the same rig for playing some things for Clarinet and tape effects.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-01-11 23:56
Tom,
Are those the Yamaha MSR400's? How do you think they compare to the JBL Eon 15 G2's?
Ralph
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-12 00:44
The Yamahas are biamped - split before the amplifiers there are 2 in each speaker. I had a set of EOn 15s, I sold them my band lox and Vodka still owns a Set of eon15s and a set of eon 10s. I think the 10s sound way better than the 15s. But the Yamahas are much better hands down over the JBLs. We used the JBLs on one gig after I had used the Yamahas, the band unanimously preferred the Yamahas.
They are heavy, not as bad as the Mackies and better balanced for carrying.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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The Clarinet Pages
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