 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Connie
Date: 1999-10-13 19:03
I'm about to retire my old Leblanc,which I bought second-hand thirty years ago, and would prefer to stay with Leblanc since I'm used to the key style. I'm looking at maybe an Infinite, perhaps a Concerto...(I'd like something with a fuller tone than what I have, but I don't know what I have!) I notice that Leblanc offers the Concerto with the in-line jump trill keys (like mine) or with offset trill keys--is there an advantage to offset trill keys? Why are they offered at all, since Leblanc is so proud of its patented in-line keys, and why only on the most expensive models?
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-10-13 20:42
There are discussions on this in the archives. I did a "cut and paste" of one of them and included it below. I don't think, from the description below that one would feel different than the other. If there are other aspects of your older Leblanc that you prefer, Leblanc still makes a LL and a LX2000.
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:13:29 -0500
From: Bill Hausmann <bhausman@cris.com>
Subject: Re: Question
At 08:16 PM 2/24/98 CST6CDT, J. Blake Arrington wrote:
>What is the difference between clarinets that have offset trill keys
>and ones that have in-line jump trill keys.
>
It is hard to describe, but easy to show. On most clarinets, the trill
keys go up straight and then turn off to the pad cup, so the cup is out of
the way of the next trill key. This is the standard, or "offset"
arrangement. On many Leblanc products, the pad cup is right on the end of
the trill key and the next key has an undulation in it to "jump" over the
pad cup of the lower key. This allows the tone holes to be cut in a
straighter line and where theoretically they are less vulnerable to getting
water in them. Check out a Vito or Noblet and compare it to a Buffet or
Selmer product to see what I mean.
____________________________________________________________________________
Bill Hausmann bhausman@cris.com
451 Old Orchard Drive http://www.concentric.net/~bhausman
Essexville, MI 48732 http://members.wbs.net/homepages/z/o/o/zoot14.html
ICQ UIN 4862265
If you have to mic a saxophone, the rest of the band is too loud.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-13 22:34
I also noted that this design is not necessarily used on LeBlanc's top-of-the-line clarinets. Gee, I wonder why...
Here goes a pretty spicy opinion on the subject. The in-line jump trill keys could (note that I said "could") make the horn easier to make and therefore cheaper to make. Note also that I in no way stated or implied that LeBlanc's horns are cheap. They make very good to exquisitely fine horns. Rather, I'm complementing LeBlanc on an apparently ingenious design. Now for the second swing of the pendulum on the business management side of the design. By patenting the design, LeBlanc locked the rest of the industry out of a slick design that not only makes their horns unique, it could also provide a long-term profit advantage. Like I said, it's an ingenious solution.
So, one has to ask the follow-up question. Why does LeBlanc revert back to the classic trill key design for their very best and most expensive clarinets? Is there a performance, playability, intonation, or other technical advantage to the classic design? Or, does LeBlanc make so much money on their premium models that the design difference is insigificant in the cost/price ratio?
Who knows? What's more important, who cares? As long as the horns are as good as they are, and LeBlanc's engineers and business managers are smart enough to figure out an advanced trick here and there, I say more power to them. In the end, all of us consumers benefit from the constant "improvements" in the clarinet, whether they are for cost cutting or they are for performance enhancement.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-14 00:26
Paul, on discussing patents,in this case LeBlanc's, one needs to review them as to issue [and expiration] dates, and read the claims to ascertain market-dominance. I have copies of most of them and, as time allows, will research this "jump-key" development. Having two of those models myself, and being acquainted with two more [played by son and grandson], I believe it is technically and musically a worthwhile clar mechanism. Any suppositions re: motives should also be applied to Buffet and Selmer [many models and "features"], after all, it is a highly competive business from which we all profit. Don
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Author: Daniel
Date: 1999-10-14 04:52
While the "in-line" trill keys offer less opportunity for water to get in the tone holes, as has been stated, I feel the standard design of the "offset" trill keys has a more elegant look and is aesthetically pleasing. Such as the similar issue of flutes' pointed pad cups or "Y-arms".
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-10-14 12:29
Daniel wrote:
-------------------------------
While the "in-line" trill keys offer less opportunity for water to get in the tone holes, as has been stated, I feel the standard design of the "offset" trill keys has a more elegant look and is aesthetically pleasing. Such as the similar issue of flutes' pointed pad cups or "Y-arms".
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Interesting, I find the in-line keys more aesthetically pleasing. To me, the offset keys look like they have a potential weak spot where they bend to the offset cup. However, they are probably strong enough for the job. I've never seen one break.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-10-14 18:34
Connie wrote:
-------------------------------
I'm about to retire my old Leblanc ... I notice that Leblanc offers the Concerto with the in-line jump trill keys (like mine) or with offset trill keys--is there an advantage to offset trill keys?
Connie -
I have never seen a Leblanc Concerto with in-line "jump" trill keys, but it's pictured in the current Leblanc catalog on their website.
While the in-line design has theoretical advantages, as a practical matter there is no difference, provided the design is good. Tom Ridenour told me that when he designed the Opus and Concerto models, he started from scratch, and presumably he wanted to differentiate the look of these models from the older Leblanc design.
Tom also told me that regardless of what the Leblanc advertisements say (or used to say), the Infinite is designed to play like a Buffet R-13, rather than the older Leblanc models or the Opus or Concerto. If you prefer the sound and response of the older Leblancs, then you should look first at the LX2000 or LL models. However, you should also play the Infinite, Opus and Concerto models to see which you prefer. You should of course also try the Buffet, Selmer and Yamaha instruments (and the Rossi if you can afford it).
On the in-line design instruments, the trill keys are positioned more toward the front of the upper joint than on other models. That is, if you look down from the mouthpiece toward the bell and imagine a clock face, the in-line keys are at about 2:00, while the traditional keys are at about 2:30. For me (and I have long fingers), the higher position used for the in-line keys makes them fall more naturally under my fingers than those in the traditional position, particularly for the lowest (Eb/Bb) key. This is enough of an advantage that I have considered having key extensions made for my Buffet R-13 to match the in-line positions, but it's major surgery, so I decided not to.
The choice comes down to what feels most comfortable for you, based on the length and flexibility of your fingers. Only you can tell that. Looking in a mirror will help you see which hand position is most natural.
Good luck. The instruments are all good at that level, so it comes down to your personal preference.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Connie
Date: 1999-10-14 19:38
Thanx to all for your comments. RE patenting--my son's Buescher (isn't that made by Selmer?) has in-line keys. RE whether I like the sound and response of the older Leblanc--I really haven't played any of the newer ones, so I don't know. When we bought my daughter her R13 2 years ago, I liked the sound of my Leblanc better, and the keys felt better, because that was what I was used to. Interestingly, however, I test played her Buffet a few months ago, and at that time liked the sound of hers better than mine--could 2 years of seasoning do that? But I still like the way the Leblanc keys feel, and I didn't like the intonation of the Buffet throat tones. Again, it's probably a matter of what I'm used to. I hadn't considered the LL or LX2000, since I haven't heard much about them.
This is a Buffet town, and I don't know of anyone in my geographic vicinity that would stock all of those clarinets for me to try. MuncyWinds in Boone is the closest, about a 6-hr drive. I found mail-order testing cumbersome for mouthpieces, so it seems a large-scale investigation of clarinets would be nightmarish...any suggestions?
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Author: Connie
Date: 1999-10-14 19:40
PS--I still get water bubbles in the G#/C# key, even with the in-line "jump" design.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-14 21:02
Don's point is well taken. All of the companies are in it for the cash, one way or the other. That's life in the big city.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-10-15 04:18
The C#/G# key is not part of the group that utilizes the inline jump key design. This is used strictly for the four side trill keys on the right side of the upper joint.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-10-15 15:24
Connie wrote:
-------------------------------
* * * I test played her Buffet a few months ago, and at that time liked the sound of hers better than mine--could 2 years of seasoning do that? But I still like the way the Leblanc keys feel, and I didn't like the intonation of the Buffet throat tones. Again, it's probably a matter of what I'm used to. I hadn't considered the LL or LX2000, since I haven't heard much about them.
Connie -
The Leblanc LL was for many years (since at least 1960) the top of the line model. It will probably play very much like your old instrument. The LX2000 is the same basic model, with unspecified improvements. I'm not familiar enough with the sequence of Leblanc models to tell you what the differences are, but they are probably not large.
As I mentioned in my previous posting, Tom Ridenour told me that he designed the Leblanc Infinite to play as much as possible like the Buffet R-13, but with better intonation. If you like the Buffet sound, the Infinite would be a good bet, since it would give you both things you want - the Buffet sound and the Leblanc in-line keys. I tried an Infinite at the ClarinetFest a couple of years ago and liked it very much.
There are two things you can do about water getting in the C#/G# hole. The first is to keep the instrument vertical when you're not playing it, by putting it on a floor peg. If you do lay the instrument down horizontally, make sure the C#/G# hole is pointing up.
The second thing is to dry the bore thoroughly and then "paint" a ring of oil inside the bore around (and particularly above) the hole. The best way I've found to do this is to take a pipe cleaner (available in tobacco stores) and bend the last 1/8" at a 90 degree angle (needle-nose pliers work well). Dip the 1/8" bent portion in bore oil, blot most of the oil off, and paint the ring, being very careful not to get any oil in the hole. Since oil and water don't mix, the oil will divert any drip of condensation around the hole.
While you're at the tobacco store, get a pack of plain cigarette paper. If you get water in the hole, the cigarette papers are very good for blotting up the last traces after you have blown as much as you can out of the hole.
Good luck.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-15 15:50
Among 6+ patents to LeB re: clarinet [there are several re: saxes], US 1,926,489 [1933, expired in 1950] shows two inventions, one re: register key - A key configuration, the 2nd, the in-line "jump" key structure, the advantages of which are well-described in the patent's specification. As to why it was not adopted after '50 by Selmer and/or Buffet, my guess is that it was considered to be American as diff. from French, in spite of Leon LeBlanc [inventor] shown as Paris, France, [where the "best" came from!]. A somewhat similar patented development by Selmer for saxes, of the low-key plateau and rod structure, was [gratefully?] adopted by nearly all makers [after expiration] with LeBlanc joining in later , possibly when their [very inventive] Model 100? didnt sell as well as the Mark 6's. Please accept all of these views as strictly my own. Will add more when time allows, if of sufficient interest. Don
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-10-15 17:32
...a comment on Ken Shaw's email
The LX2000 is a smaller bore (14.6 mm) polycylindrical instrument which replaced the LX which replaced clarinets like the LX, L7 and L70. I'm sure the L7 and L70 were cyclindrical like the LL, but I'm not sure about the LX. All these were made along with the LL, and cost slightly higher for some reason.
I've never played a LX2000, and don't know of anyone who has a LX2000. It's definitely not marketed like the Opus / Concerto.
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Author: michael
Date: 1999-10-16 04:05
Ken, you wrote that the Leblanc web site has pictures of the Concerto. I can't figure out the "http://..." for Leblanc. I'd like to see what all of you are talking about. Can anyone help? Thanks, Michael
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-16 14:31
Mimichael wrote:
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I can't figure out the "http://..." for Leblanc.
-------
Go to the Resources/Retail page here on Sneezy. I keep a great many links available there.
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Author: michael
Date: 1999-10-16 22:05
Mark, I'll try again; I couldn't get it to load earlier.
Michael
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Author: michael
Date: 1999-10-16 22:17
Mark, thanks I found it. Sorry for writing before I tried again. Michael
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