 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-05-05 21:53
Buried within another thread was this posting. It raises a question about the current crop of mouthpieces. I quote it here for further discussion:
Mbrosure wrote:
<<<That is EXACTLY my point.....there are "custom" mouthpieces that are [just] facing [additions]-- albeit well-executed ones-- placed on the same standard commercially available blank. Some are tweaked internally, but the windows and the beak contours are similar. These are made with utmost care and consistency but they are variations on a theme of a commercially available blank.>>>
The brackets are mine. Are there other quality blanks available for customizing? Who makes mouthpieces de novo?
I bring this up since I just got a Lomax in the mail from one of the online big stores and it turned out to be made on a Zinner blank. I think Grabner and Smith also use Zinners. What if you dont find this blank's contour particularly comfortable?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-05-06 01:00
Babbitt also makes blanks that many people use.
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-06 02:16
Why all the zinners? They obviously work for a whole lot of people. If one isn't comfortable, pick out another blank and have someone you like do the work.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-05-06 02:22
>Mbrosure wrote:
>
<<<That is EXACTLY my point.....there are "custom" mouthpieces that are
>[just] facing [additions]-- albeit well-executed ones-- placed on the same >standard commercially available blank. Some are tweaked internally, but >the windows and the beak contours are similar. These are made with >utmost care and consistency but they are variations on a theme of a >commercially available blank.>>>
I wouldn't try to read too much out of this statement. Each mouthpiece craftman creates mouthpieces that are his idea of what the best mouthpiece should be like.
If you don't like the mouthpiece of one craftman, try a different craftman.
The differences between craftman range from:
High resistence to Low resistence
Not very reed friendly to Very reed friendly
Limited dynamic range to Very good dynamic range
Somewhat bright to Slightly Dark
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-06 04:43
As far as contour goes, there has to be other blanks out there. I play on a Gigliotti. What blank was that made from? Definitely a different blank than the B45. Yet both are regarded as great mouthpieces. And what about the M1513? Is that the same blank as the Gigliotti? Could be. But you can find a pretty darned good one of those as well. And then again there's the crystal mouthpieces (Pomarico, Mitchell Lurie, O'brien, Pete Fountain), these all start out with different blanks than the Zinner. I guess most people like the immediate tonal characteristics of a Zinner, but I think with a little work, ANY blank can be made to be a great mouthpiece.
On the flipside, I'm sure there are mouthpieces out there on a Zinner blank that sound/feel horrible. So any blank could turn out to be horrible. It's all (A) personal preference and (B) the quality of the work DONE on the blank and (C) the quality of the blank to begin with (since IMO anything mass produced, such as blanks, are bound to have variety within each one, and with something like a mouthpiece a very minute difference in mouthpieces can mean a very different characteristic).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2003-05-06 14:27
There are three reasons that you see a lot of mouthpiece craftsmen using blanks from Zinner:
1. The material used is absolutely wonderful. The best available anywhere.
2. There are at least six different blanks available. NOT just one. They are very different in specs. Various craftsmen will make many different configurations from these differing models.
3. The workmanship, and the adherence to spec make the Zinners worth working with. Yes, there are a few "lemons", which the craftsman must either absorb, or in some cases, unfortunately, pass on down the line to an unsuspecting customer (I believe that these cases are relatively few.)
In my business I use blanks from Zinner and jj Babbitt. There are relatively few other sourses. I also use a finished mouthpiece - a Selmer C * - for my best bass clarinet mouthpiece. I treat the mouthpiece as a blank, reface and revoice to acheive the sound and response that I am looking for. The nice thing is that people are winning auditions - real jobs - after adopting these mouthpieces.
I want to counter one claim - that it is possible to make a good mouthpiece from any blank. That is simply not true. I have an entire drawer of rejects that will never be sold to the public. They simply stink. In these cases, I simply no longer buy that blank from that manufacturer.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetXpress.com
world class clarinet mouthpieces - soprano, bass, Eb
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Author: William
Date: 2003-05-06 14:48
Yes!!!! Walter is "right on" with his observations regarding blanks. And, although I have not won any auditions (actually, I do not do auditions--I play on reputation), my (his) customized Selmer C* bass clarinet mouthpiece has definately made a better bass clarinetist out of me. I highly recommend Walter's products--and he is a "good guy" to work with.
BTW--he also does amazing restorations on vintage instruments as well.
More info in the Sneezy Classifieds where he is a Sponser.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2003-05-06 16:57
This is what Ralph Morgan thinks about mouthpiece material.
http://www.dornpub.com/SaxjPDF/Material.pdf
By the way, I remember having read a post in Klarinet mailing list,
some of the best old mouthpieces are made of material(s) not usable
today for environmental protection.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-06 17:09
I'd like to take issue with (not really, but at least question) some of Walter's comments:
First of all, Walter, you say Zinner blanks use the "best" material.....what criteria do you use to determine the "quality" of blank material, and how did you determine Zinner to be "the best" using those criteria?
Secondly, it IS possible to make a decent mouthpiece out of most (though admittedly not ALL) blanks --- it just takes a LOT more work to make a 'good' mouthpiece out of a 'bad' blank. Not that I'm anyone special, but I've made some really good (IMHO) clarinet and sax mouthpieces out of cheap molded plastic blanks --- the key is that, for most of those, I had to spend a LOT of time reworking the interiors (baffle, window, sidewalls, sometimes even the bore) and, honestly, it was rarely worth the effort -- I did it mainly as a personal challenge. I would restate your remark as follows: "It is not worthwhile to make a mouthpiece out of a poor-quality blank".
DS
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-05-06 20:23
I would like to comment on what David says above. He talks about reworking the interiors. It is important to note that if the material is there, that could work. If for example, the baffle is too deep, there is not much that can be done to put material back.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-07 15:04
Ed,
Not necessarily true -- one can build up a too-deep baffle with epoxy, clay, wax, or various other "moldable" materials --- this is frequently done in the sax mouthpiece world.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-05-07 15:39
Sorry David, I agree. I guess what I was thinking was that there is no easy way. It is certainly easier to take out than to put back in. I suppose that the possibilities are endless, it is just how far you wish to go, and if it is worth it. That seems to agree with what you said originally. Thanks for clarifying.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-05-08 12:59
I have the utmost admiration for anyone who can produce a "good" mouthpiece; I can't even draw one on paper acceptably. By comparison, read "by comparison".....barrels are a snap. I wonder, Hiroshi, what the environmentally unsafe materials were......maybe celluloid? Anyone care to comment on how to successfully polish plastic?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-08 15:53
BobD,
One can 'successfully' polish plastic the same way one can polish hard rubber --- successively finer grades of (wet) sandpaper ending with 600 or 1000/2000 grit; followed by a bit of automotive polishing compound applied with a soft cotton cloth, followed (if necessary) by polishing with a dry cotton towel or cloth. The process goes a bit more quickly with plastic than with hard rubber, in fact.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2003-05-09 23:09
"Quality" Rubber - I LIKE the rubber that the Zinners are made out of. I also like the rubber that Selmer mouthpieces are made of. Some other rubber mouthpieces and blanks have what I consider a less high quality. It seems that the rubber is more coarse. It doesn't polish as well, its harder to engrave cleanly.
But anyway, it's my own personal preference.
Regarding making good mouthpieces out of poor blanks.
Simply I am not interested in making "acceptable" mouthpieces, or even "good" ones. I want to make exceptopnal mouthpieces.
Not all blanks can be made into exceptional mouthpieces. I start with a high quality product and make it better. Why lower the bar, except as an academic exercise?
BTW - even with the "best" products, I can still come up short. I worked this week on a Zinner bass clarinet blank for probably 12 hours. Yes, it finally made a "good" mouthpiece. But nothing I could do made it as good as the best of my best. For me anyway.
Walter
www.clarinetXpress.com
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2003-05-10 04:56
David Spiegelthal is exceptional when it comes to refacing MPCs. Have an old plastic Bosey Hawkes he did and its great. Tell you what though. Bought a Brilhart hard rubber Nilo Hovey of ebay and its one of the best MPCs I have, and I have quite a collection.
Anyway. If you ever need a reface, give it to David, HE'S THE MAN!
John Gibson
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-05-10 05:05
Dave worked wonders on my MP as well. He made it easier to play on and took out the troubles I was having (in my case it was nasty undertones in certain notes). I second that vote. I don't know how others are, but he's great. Perhaps the beginner of this thread could buy a zinner blank then send it to someone to get refaced? Total cost somewhere around 80 bucks. Not bad for a personally faced mouthpiece.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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