 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mikey
Date: 2003-04-30 21:17
Next year is my senior year of college and I'm already worrying about what I am going to do when I get out. I've been principal clarinet in my school's orchestra for three years, and I really want to continue playing in an orchestra when I get out. I'm a music major and a decent player (I recently won my school's concerto competition), but I'm not at a conservatory. I don't expect to play in a top-notch group, but I would like to play.
There are several semi-professional orchestras near where I live. There are no openings, however. I was thinking about sending them a resume and arranging an audition as a sub. I want to start getting my name out so that if there ever is an opening, I will at least have a shot.
I would appreciate any advice on how I should go about getting in an orchestra. This whole thing is very new to me.
Thanks,
Mike~
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-05-01 00:29
My opinion is to "network," meet as many people as you can, and try to get "gigs." This might involve corporate gigs which can be extremely well paying, and can generate valuable connections. Even "free" gigs can generate good will and get your name in circulation. People may want to hire you and a group of colleagues to play parties and weddings. This may help you "bide your time" and provide a source of income and references/connections.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-01 01:52
As an MD for a local community group - I'm constantly getting enquiries about players wanting gigs - mostly I tell them that the position is already filled. If it's not - then I audition - I certainly don't get players as unknowns, even for operetta and I always send my first violinists (and others) an extract book with the most difficult passages and expect them to come to first rehearsal knowing how to play it.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-05-01 04:45
Networking is excellent advise. One of the truths about playing professionally is not just how well you play but who you know. It is sometimes a little like a high school popularity contest.
One thing also you might look into is joining the union. While there will always be little jobs to do and even the free ones (I've done a few), union jobs are best. If you are not a member of the union then the best you will do is scrap work because you simply cannot be hired to do union work. It may be different where you live, but that's the way it is where I live.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-05-01 20:14
cyso_clarinetist wrote: "...Go to Grad school.... These days under grad isn't really enough..."
To get in an orchestra? Lack of grad school didn't seem to hinder Marcellus, Gigliotti, Morales and countless others.
Not to be misunderstood, I think grad school has many educational and possibly even networking benefits, but does not have any direct bearing on successfully winning an orchestral position...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-05-01 20:30
GBK wrote:
> To get in an orchestra? Lack of grad school didn't seem to
> hinder Marcellus, Gigliotti, Morales and countless others.
But I think it may be that grad school is more looked upon as a "finishing school" nowadays. There's much less of an "old boy's" network available today. Looking at the history of many orchestral clarinetists (at least in the US), it seems some got into their positions through routes unavailable today; i.e., purely on teachers' recommendations with little or no real auditioning required. While today a recommendation or experience can really help out in avoiding the "cattle call" rounds, you still have on the most part competitive final auditions.
Or so I've been told.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-05-01 21:29
Not 'finishing school.' Grad School is basically buying more time to practice without having to pay back loans on undergrad.
It can also be very educational, but won't get you to the final round of any audition I am aware of.
Of course, you don't even need to study music in undergrad either. I can't tell you how many fine musicians I know who did their degrees at Ivy League schools. S
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2003-05-01 21:35
Your idea of auditioning to get a job as a sub sounds good to me in that once your foot is in the door, you will probably have the first shot at getting a permanent position when something opens up. Something similar happened to me recently, although I'm not now or ever will be a pro musician. I subbed in a (high quality non-professional) group and, by doing so, became a member while bypassing the formal audition process. But also listen to the advice of these others, who are probably more familiar what it takes to get in a professional orchestra.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-05-01 22:32
When you figure out how to do it, let me know! I've been trying for three years with no success to simply audition to get on a sub list for a local semi-professional orchestra --- they apparently have so many bass clarinetists on their sub list already, they don't even care to give me a listen (this is the Washington, DC area, after all, home of thousands (it seems) of military band musicians available on every instrument). Maybe if I knew somebody.......?
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-05-02 00:09
Getting an audition. . .great if you can
Taking a lesson with the principal clarinetist is a better strategy.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-02 02:00
You gotta get an audition...then win it!!!
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-02 02:23
Unfortunately - my experience has been that a lot of rank and file music jobs ARE given to students of principal players ... and why not - I guess at least they know what they're getting. This, however, makes it very frustrating for everyone else.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-02 02:25
Mikey another thing to consider is setting up your own ensemble - if you can find a flute, oboe, bassoon and hornist willing to form a quartet - there's quite a bit of very beautiful music written/arranged for this combination.
We have a professional wind quintet or two in Australia, notably the Canberra Wind Quintet is a superb group and an inspiration, their own arrangement of Pictures at an Exhibition is wonderful.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-05-02 12:28
Get a safe, dependable ride and be prepared to travel at the 'drop of a dime' (I suppose Cell-phoners won't follow that!)...
My teacher has 20-25 Thousand miles of driving to do each year.
A willingness to relocate may be necessary. As Der Spiegs mentioned, some areas have a bumper crop of players.
It doesn't help that an orchestra only needs a few reeds.
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-02 13:40
Thanks mark for agreeing with me...
"To get in an orchestra? Lack of grad school didn't seem to hinder Marcellus, Gigliotti, Morales and countless others."
Clarinet quaity as a whole has gone up since these people recieved their postions. This may sound rude but also, more than likely most people won't be a Marcellus, Gigliotti, Morales and those countless others. Thus we have to do whatever we can to increase our chances, such as grad school.
- James
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Author: Julia
Date: 2003-05-02 13:57
JAmes,
grad school doesn't give you a better chance at getting a position.....it gives you more free practice time and study with a good teacher, which, COULD increase your chances. When it all comes down to it, its how well you play that matters, not whether or not you went to grad school. it's also really important to have connections to people that can give you a heads up and speak positively about you, which again, grad school COULD help with that, but not necessarily. The point is, simply going to grad school and thinking that getting a masters in performance will eventually get you a position, is a false notion. THe experience will no doubt help you, but to say "go to grad school" as a solution is not going to solve anything.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-05-02 14:31
I got my orchestral position by subbing for an ill clarinetist, being called at 12:30 to play a 4:00 concert (no rehearsal, just read). I did well enough to be offered contract when that position became open the following season. As a result of doing a lot of playing in all kinds of area musical venues and developing, over the years, a reputation for always being on time, being a "team player" (cooperative rather than confrontational), being prepared ("in shape" and sober) to play, being dressed appropriately and being a good "sight reader", I get lots of calls to play and many referrals from previous conductors for new work.
Private lessons and music school are "fine and dandy" but in the real world, it is simply how good you really play and how pleasant you are to work with that counts. So, practice until you are "all that you can be", go to every audition and do your best, accept every gig and play your best, and always be on time and look your best, and just maybe............someone will notice.
Also, develope your "network" by meeting the "right" people who might be able to help you in your search and have a business card ready to hand over with your name, what you play and how you may be contacted.
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-05-02 16:13
Julia -
Yes... going to grad school doesn't give you an automatic position but it doesn't hurt ones chances by getting more instruction and learning more from the masters of our time. Ask any reputable clarinetist about this and they will agree with me.
- James
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-05-02 16:54
cyso_clarinetist wrote:
> Julia -
>
> Yes... going to grad school doesn't give you an automatic
> position but it doesn't hurt ones chances by getting more
> instruction and learning more from the masters of our time.
> Ask any reputable clarinetist a bout this and they will agree
> with me.
>
> - James
I don't know if I am reputable or not (who really cares?) but I have to say that perhaps you should live in the real world before you tell everyone how it works.
Grad school won't hurt, assuming you are at the right place. The wrong place can be worse than nothing.
At an audition, unless you went to school with someone on the committee, it is doubtful that your academic affiliation will come into play.
CYSO, I admire your enthusiasm. You remind me of me 20 years ago.o
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-05-03 04:25
Let me make one point that I overlooked.
Graduate School often gives a student who chose the wrong undergrad school or teacher a final opportunity to work hard and get out there. By that time it is getting a little late but I have seen it happen many times. Sometimes the student simply isn't good enough as a high school student to get into a good school. If the student works hard enough perhaps he or she can get into one of those school's graduate programs.
The common denominator of those who get work in this profession is hours in the practice room. You must also have some talent and not get off the tracks in your playing at some point.
If you study with a poor or wrong teacher, you may end up wasting a lot of those hours with nonsense. Practice in enough bad habits and you're through.
..............................................
CYSO,
None of this is personal, ok? I don't know you and only respond to what you write. Sorry if you were or are offended. If you are, you won't like what I am about to write. That's tough and also too bad if true. Believe me, I don't have time to pick fights with students.
What I meant was, 20 years ago I was a high school student like you are now (I assume CYSO is the youth orchestra there in Chicago). I didn't know squat and thought I did, just like you do now (It's not your fault). Every year that goes by, you'll realize how much you didn't know the year before.
I got lucky, I found the right teacher who was a great musician and got straightened out in a hurry. Right there near Chicago, as a matter of fact.
I have played professionally for more than a dozen years now. I have won several orchestral auditions and made the finals or semi finals of dozens more. First finals was just before my senior year in college (San Antonio Symphony). First win was a few weeks later (Illinois Philharmonic).
Even then at the start of my professional careeer, I still really didn't know squat. Wish I knew then what I do now, but doesn't everyone?
You play in a youth orchestra, similiar to ones I coach here in NY. You are probably talented and have some ability. The difference between what you do and what I do is similar to the difference between the student council at your high school and the state legislature.
I play for keeps. Every note I play is an audition. Believe me, if what I can do as a musician wasn't something you should probably take seriously, I'd be flipping burgers, ok?
If you have an off day, there's always time for you to practice for next year or whenever. I don't get that luxury.
I can take criticism, even from high school students. The funny thing is, most guys who actually really can play generally take me seriously. Maybe you should too? Just a thought.
The board is a place for people like you to learn something. I try to help by sharing the considerable knowledge and experience I have accumulated, and like to think that it's helping someone. Sorry if you're not enlightened, but I can guarantee this won't be the last time in your life that THAT happens.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
u
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-05-03 18:58
What is considered "semi-pro"? My local symphony plays a six-concert subscription season over 6 months or so, but everybody in the group is paid (though a pittance) for their time. Is that semi-pro, or is it mainly describing community groups that have a few paid ringers?
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: R13A
Date: 2003-05-04 13:41
mikey.....
I'm sharing this simply because it's worth 2 cents.
If you haven't already, join the union.
Contact Civic Orchestras within an acceptable traveling distance.
William touched upon " team player "........in a different context.
More often than not, this concept applies to the position one is auditioning for. As an ex.......in the mid late 80's, the Tucson SO had an opening for a 2sd/eefer. At the time, John Denman was the Principal and the deciding factor for the audition. Of the 2 finalists, the player chosen (and still holds the position) was felt to be the better 'team' player, which the position called for.
Again, the TSO had an autidion last week. The position was for Principal . Again, 'team' player concept was a deciding factor. Although it was for 1st Clarinet, the Woodwind Quintet seemed to better perform/respond to this auditioner. Being that the Quintet is comprised of first chair players from the wind section, the 'team' concept is again incorporated.
William's "cooperative vs. confrontational" attitude is ever so true. This 'posture' cost a principal his position while on tenure. (sorry, no details)
regards
dennis
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-05-04 21:54
Hat,
You rock! I wish I had had your determination in both undergrad and grad to work as hard as I know you have! (And I think we're around the same age...)
You gotta _really_ wanna!
Katrina
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Author: Clarinut
Date: 2003-05-05 00:42
HAT wrote:
Graduate School often gives a student who chose the wrong undergrad school or teacher a final opportunity to work hard and get out there. By that time it is getting a little late but I have seen it happen many times. Sometimes the student simply isn't good enough as a high school student to get into a good school. If the student works hard enough perhaps he or she can get into one of those school's graduate programs.
The common denominator of those who get work in this profession is hours in the practice room. You must also have some talent and not get off the tracks in your playing at some point.
If you study with a poor or wrong teacher, you may end up wasting a lot of those hours with nonsense. Practice in enough bad habits and you're through.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is similar to the situation I am in now, or at least have been for the past couple years. I started my undergrad in '99 with a clarinet teacher that I adored, looked up to, and worked well with. In the middle of my second year, he was diagnosed with cancer, retired at the end of the spring semester, and then passed away the following fall. This was the biggest blow to my playing ever; I lost much of my motivation, didn't feel like even looking at my clarinet, let alone practicing 6 hours a day. The teacher they hired to replace him is an amazing player, degrees from Juilliard, all that, however I don't mesh well with his teaching style, and we've done not much more than argue for 2 years. I still want the things that I wanted when I started college, but I feel like I've been wasting my time, rather than getting better. I thought about transferring but had other circumstances that kept me from doing so. So graduate school is going to act as my second chance- to study with a teacher that is good for me, and to get where I want to be with my clarinet. It may be a little late, like HAT says, but better late than never, I say!
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-05 01:18
These threads always move off course - there's no harmin in that - it's quite normal for "real" conversations to wander, too.
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