 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-05-01 20:49
Perhaps it's hopeless, perhaps not. Anyway, my clarinet section at school plays very softly, and the director is getting quite annoyed. He has tried a number of different ways to get them (us) to play louder, however he's not making much progress. There are 9 of us in the section, yet we are constantly drowned out by everyone else.
I made a suggestion to the director to have some of them change to softer reeds. They were playing on vandoren 3.5 - 4 (hard, especially for a high school band). It helped, I think, but I know we are capable of more sound.
My question is: is there any secret to playing loud? It's just air, isn't it? Any clarinet experts out there who have a surefire way to get real LOUD SOUNDS out of the clarinet (but not squeaks...)?
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-05-01 20:58
Take more mouthpiece in your mouth.
Use softer reeds, but stay within the recommended strength range of your mouthpiece. Try Mitchell Luries, which IMO are more free-blowing than Vandorens.
Use lots of air support. Breathe in deeply, push out the air with your diaphragm instead of blowing from the throat.
Make sure your ligatures aren't strangling your reeds. Rule of thumb: don't let any part of the lig touch the sides.f
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-01 21:23
Hi,
As a former HS band director, I'd like to ask your director if the others might be playing too loud. If as you say, "we are constantly drowned out by everyone else" balance might be a contributing factor.
HRL
PS Maybe you should all switch to saxes and use plastic reeds on metal mouthpieces!
Post Edited (2003-05-04 03:09)
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-05-01 21:25
Open up your throat.
I have also found that a firmer embouchure at the sides of your mouth, instead of pushing your bottom or top lips onto the reed or mouthpiece will give your sound more power.
Bradley
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-05-01 21:50
Red -
Playing louder involves two things -- actual volume, and getting more energy in your sound.
More volume is actually not difficult. Here's an exercise that appeared in the Leblanc Bell magazine, which I've recommended several times, and best of all it costs nothing.
Stuff a balled-up cotton swab or handkerchief up the bell, finger middle B and blow hard. You'll get a dreadful sounding middle Eb (approximately). Work on it, dropping your jaw and blowing harder and harder untill you get an almost normal tone.
Then find the higher overtones and practice bugle calls.
Finally, pull out the swab. You'll get about twice as much volume as before. It takes some practice to learn to let enough air go through without using the swab first, but it's definitely doable.
Making a more energetic sound is a longer term proposition. It involves getting enough air, and then voicing the sound with your tongue and soft palate and finding a "ping" of high frequency. See http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=43807&t=43777 .
Then, combine the two. Get the recordings of Pablo Casals playing the Bach Solo Celllo Suites. Play the first 5 seconds of one, and then match his emotional and tonal intensity. Do the same thing with John McCormack and other great singers.
There's more at http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=59103&t=58998 . In particular, you should to to the links to Arnold Jacobs materials.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-05-01 23:04
BobD wrote:
> Get more clarinet players in the section!
I know it was a half joke, but ...
doubling the number of players will only get you a 3dB increase in volume. The trumpets are already way, way more than 3db louder than you are (one trumpet is louder than your whole section most probably).
As Ken pointed out, you need more energy in your sound, and high frequencies (in fact, there are particular ones that cut through best - every opera singer must find them - they're called formants in the singing vernacular) have more power than low ones.
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-05-01 23:16
The problem with adding more people to the section is, that this is wind ensemble so we're the best players in the school. Of course we could bring some clarinets up from symphonic band, but they aren't as good on a technical level so although we'd be louder, there'd be many more mistakes and tuning problems. And we're a pretty good ensemble (we're competing in the state competition in two weeks!) so it'd probably do more bad than good for the band. *sigh* I say, just get a few microphones out here and we'd rock the house!!!
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Author: n_hanson12
Date: 2003-05-01 23:42
Red,
Being the top higschool player at my school, I feel your pain. Although I feel it on a different level. My clarinet section is WAY too overpowering! Can you believe it?
I guess the real problem is that there are 5 clarinets to a 19 peice band. Unfortunately, this is what I have to work with. Maybe we need to learn how to play softer...
~Nicki
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-05-02 02:20
I'm totally with Hank here ... trumpets and trombones are best located 1/2 mile from the rest of the band, and then they blend beautifully.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-05-02 15:01
In an ensemble, after intonation and precision, balance is the most important issue to address. It is probably that the brass are simply playing too loud for the woodwinds--a problem often shared with the percussion. The measure of a great band, orchestra or chamber group is not how loud they can play, but rather, how soft.
Think of the Rocky mountain range. The American peaks are higher than the Canadian counterparts, but because the surrounding "flat lands" are higher in the US than in Canada, the Canadain peaks appear to be much more majestic. It is the contrasting "relief" panorama that creates this effect, not just the inheriant peak heigth (This info was provided to me by a US Forest Service person)
The same is true in musical "peaks"--the greater the contrast, the more effective the expressive results. And being able to control "soft" is the best way of createing "musical relief." If you can play soft, then you do not have to play as loud to effective dynamic contrast. The result, a more controlled and easy to listen to ensemble sound.
Th "rule of (musical) thumb" is: Less is More.
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Author: hardreed
Date: 2003-05-02 22:44
In balancing instruments in any ensemble, it's a bit like mixing paint. A few fundamental rules to follow are:
1. Blend accompaniment into primary melodic material.
2. Blend louder instruments into weaker (i.e., brass into woodwinds).
3. Blend more intense timbres into less intense (i.e., alto sax into French horn, oboe or bassoon into clarinet)).
4. Blend lower octaves into higher octaves.
The ideal is to get the sounds to join, rather than fight each other for dominance. The only way for this to be achieved is for the conductor to get the muscians to actively listen to each other and understand how their part stands in relationship to what the others are playing.
With Redhedclrnetist's band, no matter how loud or soft the clarinets play, the director will have to get the brass players to produce their sounds so that they stand in proper dynamic relationship to those produced by the clarinet section when both groups are playing together. This will require the brass to play softer. This may mean sacrificing some volume in louder passages, but relative volume is far more important than sheer volume.
Achieving a good balance through active listening and blending doesn't imply a loss of clarity. On the contrary, textures become much more transparent because the sounds are heard in the proper relationship to each other. Cheers,
Hardreed
Post Edited (2003-05-02 23:46)
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Author: clarob
Date: 2003-05-03 03:15
or put them behind a plexiglass screen to buffer the Noise!
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Author: Garret
Date: 2003-05-03 04:31
I also think it's the band director and the balance of the band. I played for one director who, with 8 clarinets and a huge brass section, thought we were too loud. Pianissimo in a mezzoforte was the norm. In a pianissimo section of music, even though I was section leader, I wouldn't play and we were still too loud. In recordings I could not hear the clarinet section. Everything was balanced toward the lower brass and horns. In another band, we have 12+ clarinets. This director wants everything up one volume level. When I hear recordings of this band, it is balanced towards the woodwinds, but you can still hear the brass. Go figure. Being a clarinet player, I dropped the band where I wasn't allowed to be heard.
My clarinet teacher is teaching me to project and to be heard across the room, to think of ALL notes as blowing past the bell. I now envision that I stand on top of a high point or cliff, and I want someone across a gorge or valley to be able to hear what I'm playing. This helped me without changing reed strength.
Just out of curiousity, how many people are in the other sections of the band?
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-05-03 05:04
Hmm... I have to think about that. There are 4 flutes, 9 clarinets, 1 bass clarinet, 2 bassoons, 2 oboes, 4 or 5 french horns, uhh 9 or 10 trumpets, 2 tubas, 2 baritones, 4 trombones, and 1 string bass. I might be wrong on a few numbers, but you get the general idea. We're a pretty good sized band and good sounding too! (except for the almost-nonexistant clarinet sound)
Oh, and I forgot the percussionists. I have no idea how many there are, to tell you the truth.
Post Edited (2003-05-03 18:19)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-05-03 20:03
Hi,
I suspect that there are some saxes as well. I think the 1 for 1 ratio of clarinets to trumpets is a huge problem.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-05-04 03:11)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2003-05-03 23:57
You're outnumbered badly. If there are no more clarinetists good enough to move up, perhaps the conductor would move some brass players down to the lower band. I sympathize - my group has typically 10 clarinets, 10 trumpets, 10 trombones, 6 horns and 6 saxes.
There may be some sections of the music which could be played an octave higher; ask your conductor before doing it.
Burt
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Author: Pam H.
Date: 2003-05-04 00:23
My guess is that the brass needs to learn to play softer too. Everyone should listen to see if you are blending. We have this problem often in the church orchestra that I'm in. Some of the trumpet players think that it's their duty to play as loud as possible.
It's funny the thing that is helping them to learn the value of dynamics and blending with other players is that they have started a brass choir and the lady that's leading them (an exceptional trumpet player) is teaching them all to play with more style and dynamic contrast.
In the pit we also use baffles in front of the trumpets and bones so that just the mikes that are in their section are picking them up.
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-05-04 04:44
The brass could very well be drowning us out. But I feel like I have to stick up for (at least) a few of them...
In one song that we play, there are parts where the second and third part clarinets play alone. The band director has always said "louder!" and "More! more!" when we get to that part. It's definitely not the brass drowning them out, because they aren't even playing!
How many clarinet players have played a brass instrument? Maybe it's really hard to play quietly... Or maybe it's really easy, but brass players like the power that comes with being loud.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-05-04 13:58
Hooray for the third clarinets. Would be interested to know the name of the piece involved. All other things being equal(!) play softer reeds and hope you don't squeak. My general impression is that there is a tendency for younger players to think that harder reeds are what they should strive to play.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-05-04 15:29
Not withstanding all of the great and serious advice presented thus far on this subject, if all else fails, in the end it may be necessary to follow Anthony Gigliotti's advice regarding playng clarinet in a "loud" orchestral situation--like his Philadelphia Orchestra. His advice, "BTSOOI".
(translation--blow the s...t out of it)
(and, don't forget to use your musicians earplugs to prevent the later in life "ringingintheears" syndrome)
(sounds like zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........)
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-05-04 18:54
The piece I referred to is called To A New Dawn, by Philip Sparke. We are also playing Loch Lomund, by Frank Tichelli. It has a bunch of cool clarinet lines in it too...
About the reeds, yes. And he told us to get harder reeds late last year, so many of us complied. My private teacher got mad, though, and told me to get softer ones. So naturally I followed her orders and my sound improved (not to mention that I can play louder). I think playing on hard reeds somehow "proves" that you are a good player. The lower two bands don't have the volume trouble.
My band director has tenitis. We know a lot about it. There are even earplugs for sale in the band room. Have you ever played clarinet with them in? It's definitely a different experience...
BTSOOI...lol
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Author: Sneakers
Date: 2003-05-04 21:29
I have a question along the lines of playing louder. I have no problem playing loud, but I was told that sometimes when I get louder that my tone spreads. How do you prevent that?
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-05-04 22:42
Sneakers -
Voicing! Think 'e' or 'd' to keep your tongue up enough in the back. Low tongue in the back = spread, usually flat notes. Also, keep the opening you're sending the air through more vertical than horizontal.
Hope that helps!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-05-05 16:00
First and second clarinetists never have the experience of percussionists directly in back of them like the thirds do. My tinnitus comes and goes just as my tenitis does. And ALL brass players play too loud ALL the time.
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Author: Julia
Date: 2003-05-05 17:48
but benni, don't forget the ooh on the lips and for an open throat. We need both the ee and the oo
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-05-05 21:15
Julia -
But most English-speaking people don't know how to make good umlaut sounds . . . 
Anyway, I figured if the tone was spreading a lot, they're probably open enough in the back and just needed a little more 'e.'
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-06 00:18
One thing abut loud playing, is it lacks interest.
Dynamic playing requires prequisite knowledge of voicing the sound in the throat, and proper diaphramic support.
these are huge issues with most young players. When you add the fact these two things also affect tuning, the results of just playing loud is quite a dissapointment. ....the really key thing is to project the music to the back of the concert hall by proper alignment of the throat with correct air column support.
Intonation is very important as well, and a well tuned sound will tend to project way over a flabby loud airy sound.
Remeber sound has to be coupled with rythmn and instensity no matter the volume...
David Dow
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Author: Mikey
Date: 2003-05-06 16:14
It's not just the air-the setup is extremely important. If they are using reeds that are too hard or a mouthpiece that is too restrictive, they will be fighting a losing battle.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-05-06 18:37
I am speaking after the fact, once you have the right set up their is alot more to playing then just blowing. Being able to project means voicing the sound correctly...set up is a very individual process. Different players can play reeds and set ups I would never be able to play. Having taught for 20 years and played professionally for over 22 years I can say that subtle use of the air column is the area most students have the greatest difficulty.
pLayers like Marcellus and Wright played on very hard set ups, and I myself play a pretty light reed and resistance set up. However, for me to say they are wrong is wrong. What works well for an individual in terms of reed and mouthpiece is an individual choice I prefer to respect, unless of course they are out of tune and sound hideous. Great players instictively from years of playing know what to do with the air and the prerequsite amount in order to give the phrase it's subltly and beauty.
Good teachers also work hard in giving the student this knowledge. Set up is just one aspect of numerous things that take years of teaching for a student to build on. Volume means nothing if it is not within the context of what the composer wants.
David Dow
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