 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-11 01:07
I've studied wing stalls with airplanes where at a certain angle of attack against the prevailing direction of flight, the wing no longer develops lift. The plane can drop from the sky like a rock if the wings stall. Okay, enough of the aeronautical engineering primer. The question is this: Can I "stall" a clarinet's reed so it doesn't vibrate, especially at the proper frequency for the note that I intend to play? For instance, with a particular reed, I cannot change from high clarion Bb to A without having the reed just buzz like a cheap kazoo but not play the A note. Slurring is no problem, but tounging the reed seems to get the bad behavior. Switching reeds seems to help the problem a bunch. Perhaps the particular reed has a "dead zone" of poor peformance where it just stalls out.
Can anyone out there help me understand the reed's behavior and especially how I can avoid the problem with this reed in the future? On the surface, this reed is a very good one and I want to salvage my investment in it. It's a Legere reed and I don't want to ruin it.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-11 01:23
I wish that I could have a reed-to-reed comparison with my own cache of Legere reeds, but this particular reed is the only 2.5 strength Legere reed in my small collection. I tried the same thing with a Vandoren V-12 2.5 reed and there was no problem. I'll try it with my next strength up reeds from Legere (my collection of apparently rare 2.75 reeds) and see if it's just one reed's problem, or if it's my embouchure or lip position that's the problem. I have noticed in the past that this 2.5 Legere reed has difficulty with the clarion A note. Now, it seems to be getting worse. The clarion A is acoustically challenging on any horn, even mine. Of course, there are many other notes that are just as challenging for the clarinet. I've checked for leaking pads and bad fingerings, all to no avail. Guess I'll have to send Mr. Legere an EMail with the question and see what he can do about it. I've had the reed for almost a year now.
This begs the question. Do Legere reeds eventually wear out like natural cane reeds? I haven't seen any splits or any other of the classical signs of wear on this reed. So, how can I tell that it's time to retire the Legere reed?
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Author: Ray Swing
Date: 1999-10-11 02:59
I would like to comment on the Legere Clarinet Reed but since my Legere reed is now 4 weeks on back order from "Woodwind", I can't help you. I have now had 4 weeks experience with a Legere Alto Sax reed and find it's performance excellent to date.
A year ago I was having a similar problem with Clarion B at times using my standard Van Doren 3 1/2,s. I do believe that the reed and embouchure position coupled with the air pressure and particular horn can cause a freq lock out at times. Since I am aware of my problem now, I approach the B with an understanding and make a minute embouchure adjustment to alievate the problem.
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Author: Jim Carabetta
Date: 1999-10-11 11:52
What you describe sounds like a similar problem that is characteristic of the upper "G" on a tenor saxophone. The buzz is a combination under/overtone of (in your case) the "A", and comes out as a hum or a buzz.
As Ray mentioned, the cause and effect are a result of air support and embouchure changes. It would be a bit odd that a reed would fail you only on one tone, unless it was split, where the harmonics involved cancel each other out. A sloppy change between the two notes may set the reed buzzing also.
The fix is to practice a long-tone B-flat, be comfortable and aware of your lips, airstream, etc. You need to memorize exactly how your face, jaw, lips, tongue, etc are situated in playing a clear B-flat. Do the same with that A.. don't practice the change between the two yet.. just long-tone "A"'s. Again..be mindful of how you are "set" in order to get that tone out.
Once you are satisfied with the tones you get for each note, purposely try to recreate that buzz. Notice and evaluate the changes you made in your lips, jaw, etc. from what you did on the long tones. That way you can tell the subtle changes between what worked, and what caused the buzz.
For doublers, this problem is discussed in the Nov. Saxophone Journal.
In many cases, players with difficulty on a particular tone anticipate a problem and try to squeeze that tone out, doing more harm that good. Your embouchure and air support should not change between the two notes.
And.. as an aside.. can you stall a reed? Yep... You maintain the airstream, and, rather than tongue the reed to interrupt the airflow, CRADLE it with your tongue. The result is a subdued version of the note. It's a pretty slick jazz technical effect, called "ghosting".
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Author: D. Blumberg
Date: 1999-10-11 14:37
Actually, there can be a stall problem on the A if the reed is too light. A student(1st chair in regional band) of mine tried a 2 1/2, "stalled" from time to time on the A (yes , only that note), and then when playing the 3, no problem at all. You have to find the strength that works for you. I would imagine that the reed would eventually curve towards the facing of the mouthpiece, making it too soft.
Jim Carabetta wrote:
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What you describe sounds like a similar problem that is characteristic of the upper "G" on a tenor saxophone. The buzz is a combination under/overtone of (in your case) the "A", and comes out as a hum or a buzz.
As Ray mentioned, the cause and effect are a result of air support and embouchure changes. It would be a bit odd that a reed would fail you only on one tone, unless it was split, where the harmonics involved cancel each other out. A sloppy change between the two notes may set the reed buzzing also.
The fix is to practice a long-tone B-flat, be comfortable and aware of your lips, airstream, etc. You need to memorize exactly how your face, jaw, lips, tongue, etc are situated in playing a clear B-flat. Do the same with that A.. don't practice the change between the two yet.. just long-tone "A"'s. Again..be mindful of how you are "set" in order to get that tone out.
Once you are satisfied with the tones you get for each note, purposely try to recreate that buzz. Notice and evaluate the changes you made in your lips, jaw, etc. from what you did on the long tones. That way you can tell the subtle changes between what worked, and what caused the buzz.
For doublers, this problem is discussed in the Nov. Saxophone Journal.
In many cases, players with difficulty on a particular tone anticipate a problem and try to squeeze that tone out, doing more harm that good. Your embouchure and air support should not change between the two notes.
And.. as an aside.. can you stall a reed? Yep... You maintain the airstream, and, rather than tongue the reed to interrupt the airflow, CRADLE it with your tongue. The result is a subdued version of the note. It's a pretty slick jazz technical effect, called "ghosting".
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-11 15:28
This particular reed is amazingly soft, even for what it's specified to be. Great for lower notes and lots of volume in all notes. It can play the altissimo notes fairly well, too. However, it has a nasty habit of stalling on the clarion A a lot and sometimes on clarion G, too. None of my other reeds have this problem, including natural cane 2.5 reeds. The higher strength reeds never have this problem. I did the "force the bad habit" drill last night to see if I could intentionally cause the problem with a slightly different embouchure. I found that I could easily duplicate the problem time and again. I also found that I could not fix it readily when I did long tone drills as suggested above, but at least I did try it. Trilling is no problem. Slurring is no problem. Even very light tounging of the reed from Bb to A starts the problem all over again. All this with absolutely no change in embouchure. I guess this reed has one of two problems or perhaps both of them. A microscopic split right at the very tip of the reed, or a badly constructed set of fibers (Legere artificial reed) that just don't want to cooperate at certain harmonics. Since no other reed in my collection has this problem, I guess I'll try to write Mr. Legere to see what his return policy is for older but gently used and undoctored reeds. I'll keep in mind the "ghosting" trick for later use when I finally get enough skill to try some of the easier jazz material (many years hence).
Thanks for the helpful tips and tricks for a unique problem.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 1999-10-11 20:40
I felt as if my reed had stalled at one point. As it turned out I had a key not sealing... and the clarinet just wouldn't play on some notes. A happy ending though. I have a wolf tone on one of my Legere reeds on the clarion B. I do prefer cane now that I have time to muck with reeds again.
My son, who started clarinet 4-5 months ago, prefers the cane ones also. I can hear a big difference in the tone with him. We use the Legere as backups now.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-12 00:12
Perhaps the softer Legere reeds have a behavior problem in the high clarion. Sure, it could be us adult and junior novices, but if this thread gets enough hits on it, I'd have to discount a bad embouchure for the problem.
I believe that your "wolf" tone and my "stall" are likely the same problem. The reed buzzes, but not at the desired frequency. It's more like an ineffective harmonic of some kind. The last time I heard a reed having this kind of problem, it was a well worn natural cane reed with an obvious split or set of splits at the tip. Perhaps my Legere reed is nearing its retirement time. Gosh, I hope not. These reeds are way too expensive to start replacing as often as cane reeds. I'd say that I've put about 200 hours of practice time on this particular reed over about the last year.
I'll let you folks know what Mr. Legere says in his response to my EMail. Maybe we can all learn something from it.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-10-12 17:41
paul wrote:
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I'd say that I've put about 200 hours of practice time on this particular reed over about the last year.
Ah HAH! That's probably 10 times as long as a cane reed lasts. So you really aren't "replacing them as often as cane reeds." I don't have 200 hours on my Legere yet, but I would be surprised if it *didn't* wear out by that time. Since you don't have the problem with other reeds, it clearly has something to do with the Legere.
A couple of ideas. I keep a Legere on an old mouthpiece and an old Pedler, so I can pick it up on the spur of the moment. I've found that if I leave the Legere on mouthpiece, dried saliva builds up between the reed and the rails pretty quickly - more so than with a cane reed, and with worse results because the Legere surface is harder. At the least, take the reed off and thoroughly clean the bottom. Also clean off the rails, using saliva and a gentle fingertip. This usually makes a big improvement.
Next, check to make sure the bottom of the reed is flat. Lightly wet the bottom and press it against a piece of plate glass to see (from the other side of the glass) whether the bottom has warped. Any leakage there has nasty consequences.
Try cleaning out the register vent. (I use a dampened pipe cleaner.) Even a small amount of crud there can have unpredictable effects in the high register. Also, make sure the register key isn't opening too wide. About 2 mm. usually works best.
Try a different mouthpiece, a different barrel, or both, and if possible a different instrument. This will make it easier to isolate the cause.
Try to tongue the A without doing anything else with your jaw, throat or abdomen. Watch yourself in a mirror. It's dollars to doughnuts that you're doing the Valsalva maneuver (see my earlier posting on this) and giving a push with the breath, rather than simply using the tip of your tongue to interrupt the vibration of the reed, while keeping the air pressure constant.
Finally, the plastic of which the Legere is made is harder than cane. I hate to even think this, but maybe the beating of the plastic against the rails has put premature wear on the mouthpiece. (One of the signs of wear is that tongued notes in the clarion become "tender" or unstable.) I'm preparing a longer posting on this, but at a Clarinet Congress several years ago I asked a panel of mouthpiece makers (including Pyne, Ridenour and Bay) how long one of their mouthpieces should stay in prime condition. Each of them said about a year. After that, the mouthpiece should be brought back to the maker to be touched up.
Good luck.
Ken Shaw
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-13 01:15
Mr Legere offered me a new reed for all of my troubles.
I wish other products had as good a customer service as this product.
Ken Shaw has some good points. I'll take a look at the mp and the reed. Perhaps soaking the Legere reed in some diluted hydrogen peroxide will help clean it up a bit. The last time I did this trick, I was able to kill a really bad taste and odor on the reed without damaging it or affecting its performance. I soaked a fairly recent vintage 2.75 Legere reed in a 1:5 H2O2/water mix in a small drinking glass. This trick worked like a champ. However, I do a thorough wipe down and clean up on all clarinet parts after each and every session. This includes the reed (no matter what it's made out of), the mp (inside and outside), and the horn (piece by piece), everything gets wiped down and buffed before it gets put back into the case. Since the entire rig cost me over a couple of thousand dollars (1994 vintage Buffet Festival purchased new, with a Vandoren B45 and Vandoren 5RV Lyre mp, standard metal lig), that's the least I should do to care for the investment.
I'll take a concentrated look at breathing and embouchure problems in this area, too. But even with all of this, why is it only one reed that misbehaves? No other reed in my small collection does it. I would also expect a natural cane reed to last more than 20 hours of highly intermittent and light use. If I were a pro, then I wouldn't feel guilty killing a natural cane reed in half a week or so. However, I only get an hour a day. That's the maximum I get. Many weeks, it's less than that. Here's how I arrived at the 200 hour number. I used this reed for a majority of my practice sessions over about a year. Not quite averaging once a day for one hour sessions each leads me fairly close to the 200 hour range. For the tenfold price difference, I would expect a tenfold life increase.
Mr Legere didn't argue the point with me. Instead, he offered me a new reed. I'd say that's very good customer service. Believe me on this point. I married a Customer Service Rep from a very large insurance company. So, how can I can tell good customer service from bad service? I get reminded of it every day. 
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-13 15:50
Following Mr Legere's advice and the advice of all of the folks who gave great advice in the postings above, I put the 2.5 Legere reed aside for a while and checked out one of my Legere 2.75 reeds for last night's session.
Clarion Bb to A transition had no problems. Clarion A was slightly "airy" sounding, so I still need to check on the things Ken Shaw mentioned, especially air support without "huffing" the note. But, at least the note spoke well when I wanted it to. Hard staccato, light staccato, slurring, etc. I went through all possible combinations that I could think of to try to force the bad behavior again with the 2.75 reed. Ditto for a broken-in natural cane Vandoren V-12 2.5 reed for comparison. There were no significant problems.
When I get a chance, I'll try the fancy jazz effect, just for fun. After all, that's what playing the clarinet should be about - having some fun.
Again, thanks for everyone's help and advice on this subject.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 1999-10-13 16:31
An aircraft wing developing lift is probably not a good analogy to a reed vibrating. A wing develops lift via a steady-state process (even though the flow is generally turbulent, it is still 'steady' in the sense that it is non-oscillatory for the most part). A reed vibrating, however, is an oscillatory process more akin to wing flutter or to wingtip vortex shedding (both are undesirable in aircraft). Any oscillatory process can be stopped, or prevented from initiating, by adding lots of damping or by changing the forcing frequency. For instance, you can blow past a reed through the mouthpiece without causing the reed to vibrate, simply by reducing your lip pressure on the reed.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-10-13 22:04
Dave is correct. The aircraft wing analogy is pretty weak, especially in aeronautical terms. True, you want a lot of controlled flutter for a reed and, for the most part, you don't want any flutter for an aircraft wing. Also true that you can blow air past a reed in a way that it won't vibrate or flutter. Also true that flutter eventually causes internal and external structural failure in both the reed and the wing. What's considered the usual "wear and tear" in a reed is typically considered disastrous in an aircraft wing. I guess it all depends on how much you are depending on the item's structural integrity for pure survival right that second.
However, most folks got the point well enough to offer good help and advice for the clarinet. I couldn't think of anything better at the time to describe the problem in a suitable way. Thanks for making the correction in the analogy.
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