 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2003-04-23 18:00
I'm working on the Baerman (part III) octave study and find it next to impossible to cleanly slur down on some (not all) notes when the lower note is in the lowest register. The problem seems worse with my softer, i.e. more broken-in reeds (I use a 3 1/2 Vandoren blue, with a M14 on an R13). Slurring up, even to the where the air is real thin (i.e. altissimo G or up) is not a problem (not that I necessarily sound brilliant, just that my reed cooperates in jumping up there). Going down, it seems that my reed is actively resisting the plunge and emits a very disharmonious squawk. I've had to resort to cheating and tonguing some of the problem lower notes because the result otherwise is just too painful. I do a real tiny interruption when I tongue, but it does the trick. The right note is generated. But of course, I'm not getting the full benefit of the exercise...
What is going on here? I've tried to analyse what my mouth is doing. Going up, I keep my embouchure still (or wiggle it a bit depending on where I'm aiming, for intonation and to avoid squeaks) - no problem. Going down, whether I keep my embouchure totally intact, or try to lip it around a bit, I keep getting the sick duck sound.
Ideas?
tetiana
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-04-23 18:26
I tend to cheat sometimes too, but it can be done. I've done it (a few times). Try keeping the frim embouchre for the higher note, and when you let go of the register key to slur down let your embouchre loosen up a bit at the same time.
The problem I find is that if I keep the embouchre firm and let go of the register key, more often than not I continue getting that overtone and the note doesn't change.
Try loosening up a bit in coordination with changing your fingers. This should make it smoother. (You might feel like your "dropping" your chin a bit for the lower notes.)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-04-23 18:49
Sounds like you need to open up the throat column of air by relaxing the muscles more, and then playing with a fast air column.
David Dow
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-04-23 23:40
Is this more pronounced, on the lowest few notes?
Are you making clean octave leaps, or closing more toneholes in the lower
part of the slur?
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-04-24 00:25
This sounds like the problem someone brought up recently, the difficulty in allowing the register key to close while maintaining a flow of air. I still can't do it without a hint of tongue to break the air stream ( and don't understand how it can be done with a continuing air flow ).
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-04-24 06:56
It's much easier to slur it when you are closing more toneholes. For instance a clean octave (E in the clarion to Middle E-hehehe-in the Chalamuoe?!) registers requires a different number of tone holes. You go from T RK 123|12x to T 12x|xxx. I like D. Dow's phrasing with "opening the throat". THis is basically what I do by dropping my jaw slightly. Also, the jaw drop results in a change of pressure in the reed.
An exercise (again) to practice would be to do longer notes (lets say whole or half notes) and to lip slur, without using the register key or changing fingers, from a low A to the E with the same fingering, to the C#. Do this by slight movements of your lower lip and jaw. Then slur back down. You'll get it and it'll give you much greater control over your horn.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-04-24 10:44
Try changeing your tongue position. Use a high vowel sound such as Tee for the high note and slur down using an oo or aa sound for the lower note. The effect is something like Tee-aa. It decreases the arch of the tongue and therefore reduces the speed of the airflow over the tongue. The aircraft wing principle.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-04-24 12:22
Don't forget intense breath support. One of the biggest problems with downward octave jumps is the difference in blowing resistance between the notes. An extra push on the diaphragm helps to equalize the resistance that your body perceives--and the airflow that your reed receives.
To use Alexi's example, you are blowing against a greater resistance on Clarion E than on throat E. If you don't push against your diaphragm when going down, the lesser resistance of the lower E might result in greater airflow across the reed--not the thing you want when trying to return it from a harmonic to a fundamental.
Also, if you aren't supporting enough, you could be trying to compensate with your embouchure and it only takes a little bit of pinching to keep the reed from returning to fundamental.
Allen Cole
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2003-04-24 13:05
Thanks for all your good advice. Today I tried to figure out exactly where the problem occurs. The worst notes are low G, G# A, also B and occasionally C. For instance slurring chalumeau B, up to clarion B and then slurring back down to chalumeau G, I find it next to impossible to get the G clean without tonguing it. Ditto slurring chalumeau C up to clarion C - so far so good, but going back down to B - not a pretty sound, at all. (Second system of the exercise if you have the same edition as I do).
Another problem occurs a couple of systems down when you slur altissimo B, to clarion B (works fine so far), but then to chalumeau G# (bad note there). Ditto for D down to D and down to B. Baerman thankfully gives you a break now and then with detached notes or different phrasing, so it's not like the whole piece requires you to slur down. But if it did, I suspect I would run into other problems.
To me it feels like the reed is vibrating in a certain way and just refuses to stop.
tetiana
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Author: charlesmunden
Date: 2003-04-24 14:37
Ok here goes my two cents. I would say first, you cant blame the reed. If you dont have more than one reed, you should. Assuming you have a good reed, then it isnt doing something wrong you are. So from there you say you still cant see what you are doing wrong. When I worked on this excercise I had a really difficult time making sure that I didnt "cheat" What I would think you are doing is trying to move you embochure or tongue just a little which is where you lose the center of your tone, and then your air stream is interrupted causing you to squeek. Now for what I did to fix it, I went and practiced firts just getting a feel for the problem notes. Then I practiced slurring up, making sure nothing moved in my mouth at all, and my air steam stayed uninterrupted. This eventually led to me sluring down and it worked out. The worst thing you can do in your practice is "cheat". If you cant get it right, dont learn it the wrong way, wait until you find the answer first. Its alot harder to relearn things than it is so get them right the first time. I hope this helps you in your quest for non-squeeky octave slurs.
Charles Munden
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-04-25 05:12
Okay, so you're jumping a 10th from low G to clarion B. Try this and see if it helps.
1 - Breathe in all the air you can hold--not just what you think you need.
2 - Focus your embouchure and sound production on the low G.
3 - Simply change your fingers to the B and see if you are supporting the air sufficiently to get up there in tune with no embouchure change. (push as if giving birth!)
4 - Go on back down to the G, but try to hear the note in your head before your fingers move.
Let us know how things go.
Allen Cole
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-04-25 13:17
What you need is a teacher. BB advice on this kind of thing, while there might be something that actually works, is not a good source of this specific kind of issue.
Get a teacher, ask him or her to demonstrate these type of slurs. If the teacher can't do it beautifully, get another teacher. I don't see how someone who can't reliably execute a delicate technique like this is going to be able to consistently teach it.e
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2003-04-25 14:14
Guys, thank you for all your valuable advice. Synonymous, the exercise is number 10, page 138 of my edition of the Baerman. And my problem specifically is in the 5th bar (1st bar in the second system), when I can slur up from the low notes beautifully, but try as I might, can't slur down to the low G. Also last bar of the 4th system where I have a real hard time with the two octave downward leap from the clarion A.
I worked extra hard on this exercise this morning trying out all the good suggestions. Unfortunately I'm still stuck on some notes when I try to slur down. Alexi, I have no idea how to "lip slur without using the register key from a low A to the E". Are you talking about low E? I have no problem slurring up, or slurring down for that matter, except specifically in slurs where I start in the clarion (or higher) and am supposed to wind up in basement parking.
Actually I did a little experiment today. I did a chromatic scale, slurring up and down 10ths, starting with the low E. Up - piece of cake. Down - all the notes from lowest E to about C refuse to go back down without a little nudge from my tongue, or an interruption in the flow of the air (i.e. restarting the note without tonguing). Starting with C, it gets progressively easier and by E or thereabouts I can slur up and down like a yoyo.
Hat, I have a teacher, but he's temporarily out of town and seeing as how there's this great resource here, thought I'd ask.
Charles, the problem is not a squeak. It's a note (actually almost a chord, depending on how I blow), that is definitely not the right one. When I try to slur down from the throat B to the low G, I get a clarion D. Slurring from the clarion A down 2 octaves, results in the clarion E.
Finally Allen, I loved your comment about pushing "as if giving birth". I can just see delivery rooms around the nation, with doctors helpfully telling their would-be mothers "push! push! as if you're playing the clarinet! as if you're reaching for an octave!!". Except my problem is not getting the baby out. It's sucking it back in.
tetiana
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Author: Paul_MJ
Date: 2016-05-10 23:48
Hi Tetiana,
I found this old thread searching for exactly the same problem you described. How did it all work out for you? Did you find the technique to improve your slurring? I'm having a really frustrating time and could use some guidance from someone who's worked through it.
Cheers,
Paul
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