 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: angella
Date: 1999-10-08 01:22
opinions please:
some believe in keeping a ligature a bit loose, so the reed is free to vibrate.
some believe in keeping a ligature rather firm (tight) so the reed vibrates AGAINST the ligature.
any thoughts? i've always been the former, my teacher is the latter. i now have a daniels rovner- i like it fine, but it slips when i change clairnets- unless i really tighten it good. basically, i'm having ligature crisis.
any thoughts???
thanks
angella
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-10-08 02:02
My opinion:
1)Whether we can loosely put a ligature on a mouthpiece depends on how the ligature matches the contour of the mouthpiece.If perfectly matches,loosely putting it is OK. If not, absurd.
2)I use a Kasper style Greg Smith mouthpiece and an inverted Bonade ligature(it came a little deformed but I tamed it to match the mouthpiece contour). If anyone having a Kasper-cicero looks at its side view,he can recognize an obvious change of curving at the top of the table just below the window.At this point the curve is somewhat concave.I think this is the secret of Kasper-cicero mouthpieces to get freer vibration of reed. Then I experimented to set the upper register looser and the lower screw a little firmer. It made the reed vibrate more freely.This is a quite adverse idea from the conventional one that the upper screw should be tightened firmer than the lower one. So,even if we prefer to set the ligature looser,it depends on the contour of the relation of the mouthpiece. I do not think one screw ligature like Rovners are good for Kasper style mouthpieces.
A little odd opinion it may be.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-10-08 02:02
My opinion:
1)Whether we can loosely put a ligature on a mouthpiece depends on how the ligature matches the contour of the mouthpiece.If perfectly matches,loosely putting it is OK. If not, absurd.
2)I use a Kasper style Greg Smith mouthpiece and an inverted Bonade ligature(it came a little deformed but I tamed it to match the mouthpiece contour). If anyone having a Kasper-cicero looks at its side view,he can recognize an obvious change of curving at the top of the table just below the window.At this point the curve is somewhat concave.I think this is the secret of Kasper-cicero mouthpieces to get freer vibration of reed. Then I experimented to set the upper screw looser and the lower screw a little firmer. It made the reed vibrate more freely.This is a quite adverse idea from the conventional one that the upper screw should be tightened firmer than the lower one. So,even if we prefer to set the ligature looser,it depends on the contour of the relation of the mouthpiece. I do not think one screw ligature like Rovners are good for Kasper style mouthpieces.
A little odd opinion it may be.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-08 21:21
Having just obtained a copy of the Winslow patent, US 4,428,271, on scanning it, I'm impressed by the variety of ligature-pressure adjustments available to suit a cl'ist's desires for "bright vs dark" etc. Not knowing prices, I can't comment further on choice or adjustment philosophy, I'm happy with Luybens, Bonades, Gigli's and others. Don
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-10-09 00:06
It is my belief that ligature design schemes that allow
the reed to "vibrate freely" are a lot of hooey. I could
never relate any phenomena in wave mechanic theory that
requires the base of a reed to vibrate when clamped to a
mouthpiece. The idea is that a reed is secured to the
mouthpiece by a clamp, namely the ligature. The more
firm and rigid the clamp the more effectively energy is
transferred from the tip end (which IS vibrating) to the
mass of the mouthpiece body. Thus,the clamped part of
the reed is damped and not oscillating at all. The
transfer of energy is most efficient when the impedence
between the reed and mouthpiece is very low and therefore
maximum transfer takes place. This concept is fundamental
to acoustical and electrical energy transfers. Those who
advocate various tensions, points of contact, and other
glitzy reed attachment theories are prey to a placebo
effect whereby they hear a difference that really isn't
there. Please, I say this without rancor or cynicism to-
ward established clarinet players. Where the tension
between mouthpiece table and reed surface is, however,
a variable, say expansion and contraction of ligature
material influenced by temperature, the clamping will
change. Comparing a vinyl lig with steel could, I think
yield a detectable difference due to environment. Ideally,
a lig with zero or little temperature coefficient with
sturdy screws should work best especially if the back of
the reed is perfectly flat. The concavity usually seen
on the mp table is not a factor as long as the reed con-
forms to it. Sorry this took so long, but I have really
needed to get this said. Now I feel better.
Don
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Author: angella
Date: 1999-10-09 00:28
Don-
wow, ok- could you maybe summarize that in non-scientific terms.... i'm just a musician, and my scientific side is rather underdeveloped!
thanks.
angella
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-10-09 01:06
Angella: Yes, you're quite right, my comments were per-
haps a bit too "techy". All I'm saying is that a liga-
ture should clamp the reed to the mouthpiece as firmly and
rigidly as possible. All the gimmicky ligatures on the
market using ridges, contact points etc are without merit.
The lower thick end of the reed doesn't vibrate freely as
they like to say. The thin tip does, however, and sets the
air column in the mouthpiece in motion. Whatever vibration
that occurs at the base of the reed is absorbed by the
mouthpiece and the body of the clarinet. The closest
fit or contact the flat back of the reed has with the
mouthpiece table, the better the mouthpiece absorbs energy
created by the vibrating tip so the part of the reed held
by the ligature is not "vibrating freely". A clarinet
wouldn't work if it were! Is this a better explanation?
Feel free to disagree!
Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-09 03:03
Don,
An impedance mismatch, especially non-linear, causes "interesting" effects. There are modes of oscillation on reeds that are not longitudinal (the reed "arm" does not vibrate linearly _at all_, but vibrates also in a side-to-side motion). There have been movies taken of players playing which clearly shows this effect. The reed vibration is much closer to a string instrument with nodes and anti-nodes than is commonly recognized.
Perhaps the ligatures interfere constructively and destructively with these node and anti-node patterns. We have the technology to observe, but no money :^)
I do know that I have heard major differences, unexpected, with just a ligature change (reference a previous posting by me re: a Peter Spriggs floating rail ligature). It was remarked upon by more than just me (in fact, by non-musical ears, so it wasn't a "we think it should be so, so it must be so" phenomena).
I think if you'll do a bit more research you'll find that reed vibration is much more complex than you may have thought. A friend of mine has done some computer modeling of reed vibration and compared it with the actual movies, and has a fair correlation with reality. I've been trying to pry the data from him; I'll try again.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-09 18:04
Another very interesting discussion and differences of opinion!! Off-hand, I haven't found great diff's among a number with variety of metal vs plastic vs fabric, and reg. vs inverse, and bars vs dimples vs plates etc, that I can't attribute to my choices of mp, reed and my attitude re: playing! I would suggest reading what the books like Brymer, Stein and Gibson have to say, and our Pro's [if not quotes of ad-hype!] Don
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-10-10 18:44
Mark: Thanks for the additional comments. Yes, I am aware
of the lateral reed vibration concept and as a matter of
fact I have a mouthpiece made for me by Dan Johnstone, his
H3, which is asymetrical in that one rail breaks from the
reed sooner that the opposite rail with distinctive results.
I believe Fobes makes a similar mp. With a mix of vibration
on both axis, not to mention the subtle changes invoked
by embouchure, such a complex wave form I should think, is
capable of generating stronger overtones and partials if
played by a far more competent musician than I am!
But, all this is about the end of the reed that vibrates
in the path of moving air. I hold to my notion that the
ligature's function is to bind the reed to the mouthpiece.
Nothing more, nothing less. I'd like to see any hard
data that under scrutiny proves otherwise. If so, we'll
have to revise a few laws of physics!
regards,
Don
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-10-10 18:48
Don,
Engineers across this country spend countless hours on FEA analysis for vibrations. One of the many things they look at is how the mounting of one part on another or clamping one part to another affects the vibration of each individual part and of the system as a hole. Why should the reed/mouthpiece/ligature be any different than any other mechanical system? The amount of clamping load, the points of loading, etc will all affect the resulting vibration. Now whether in the case of reeds this is significant is a different question.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-10 21:20
Hopefully I'll be visiting both my friend (Don Casadonte) and Jim Pyne over in Columbus in the next few weeks. Both should be able to add to this conversation, since both are/have done studies on reed/mouthpiece/ligature coupling.
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Author: Don
Date: 1999-10-10 23:01
Dee: Thanks for your comments. My point is that a liga-
ture is NOT any different than any other mechanical sys-
tem. It is precisely the same. Take a simple pendulum for
example, a weight at the end of a support wire will swing
freely. The other end is fixed (analogous to a lig/mouth
piece). If the support wire were not solidly attached to
some structure, the pendulum would eventually stop. Another
example, take a common table knife (the kind I eat peas
with) and lay it over the edge of a table so half of it
sticks out. Hold the heel of your hand firmly on the table
end of the knife and "twang" the other end. Some sort of
vibrational process will take place but raising the hand
holding down the knife will stop it. Do you see what I am
getting at? One end of the knife vibrated and the other
end damped out this vibration by transfering it to the
mass of the table (and your hand--read ligature). Not to
sound fancy here but the better the molecular interface of
the reed meets the molecular interface of the m'piece table
the better the transfer of energy (damping) to the body
of the clarinet. Raised strips, point contact and other
magical architecture between these interfaces actually
comprimise it. One more item: the term "damping" means
the vibrational energy from the reed tip is dissipated or
absorbed by the relative larger mass of the clarinet body.
(Of course, the air column is set in motion as well)
Best Wishes, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-11 00:38
Don wrote:
Raised strips, point contact and other
magical architecture between these interfaces actually
comprimise it.
-----
That's the point. Becuase they're compromised, the transfer is not as expected.
I once wore the hat of a vibrational analysis engineer for the US Navy. Imperfect bonding/clamping creates some interesting phenomena, some of which could possibly be advantageous in our quest for tone.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-10-11 02:17
Mark Charette wrote:
-------------------------------
Don wrote:
Raised strips, point contact and other
magical architecture between these interfaces actually
comprimise it.
-----
That's the point. Becuase they're compromised, the transfer is not as expected.
I once wore the hat of a vibrational analysis engineer for the US Navy. Imperfect bonding/clamping creates some interesting phenomena, some of which could possibly be advantageous in our quest for tone.
-------------------------------
Thanks, Mark. That was what I was trying to get at. Generally if you take a ligature and screw it down as tight as possible to clamp the reed as rigidly as possible, the end result is bad tone not good. When I bought a Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece, I found that the Rovner ligature that had been fine on my B45 damped the vibrations too much on the 5RV and it was difficult to play. So I switched to a Luyben that I had laying around and Voila! problem solved.
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