 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-03-20 16:51
Recently, I had a student come in for a lesson with an R-13 which had been recently overhauled/serviced by a well known tech in our area.
The instrument played beautifully , everything was regulated/adjusted perfectly and the pad work was top notch.
One item did catch my attention: on the bridge key connection between the upper and lower joints, the tech put the silencing material (he uses a small square of leather rather than cork) on the lower arm of the bridge key mechanism (lower joint) rather than on the upper arm (upper joint) where I am accustomed to finding it. Thus the bare metal upper arm rests on the leather square of the lower arm. Usually (at least on all my Buffets) it is done the opposite way.
Is this just a preference of the repair tech? I am sure he had a reason for doing it this way. The clarinet, as I previously stated plays just fine, and the 1/1 fingering is perfectly in adjustment.
Do any of our repair techs silence the bridge key mechanism this way? ...GBK
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-03-20 18:07
GBK,
I believe it was done this way because of the material he used. Leather is a lot harder to cut than cork. The lower bridge lever is a simple square shape and was easyer to cover when compaired to the upper joint.
I would not have used leather in that spot, I feel cork would more than do here. Generally I use it where there is a rubbing or scraping action in the keywork, the thumb hole below the register key being an example. I use leather from old sax pads for this. (I am a sax player)
Mark
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-20 21:02
Hi GBK:
Having been plagued with out of alignment bridge-key adjustments, my repairman found a brilliant solution.
Instead of searching for the "ideal" material to use to keep the mechanism in adjustment, Jimmy Yan simply put an adjustment screw on the top bar of the bridge-key, similar to the screw used on the A/G# throat key. It might, in fact, be that same screw mechanism from an older horn.
Whenever my "fork Bb (1&1)" gets out of adjustment, or the right hand keys don't feel right, I can easily adjust the changes needed myself.
Simple, cost efficient, and should be on all stock horns in the future, if Buffet and the others would ever listen to our professional suggestions.
Try the improvement, it works.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Peter Spriggs
Date: 2003-03-20 21:29
GBK,
I have been using a round piece of leather 4mm across and up to 1mm thick instead of cork for years. I put it on the upper key, however it really would not matter if it was on the bottom. Some repair people might find it easier to place on the bottom.
I would caution against using an adjustment screw as many players would be tempted to adjust it and likely have adverse affects. They are generally more noisy as well. Simple to install if someone really wanted it though. If leather is properly installed and the pads working together are properly installed there will be no need for this adjustment.
JJM,
If Buffet ever starts putting these screws on, I will be taking them off before sale!
Peter
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-03-20 22:36
I have seen the adjusting screw on the bridge key. I have mixed feelings about it. First, I think it would need to be made of nylon or have a nylon insert so as to glide and not hang up. Secondly, perhaps instead of a slot a hex head would be better. It couldn't be adjusted "on the spot" as many people don't carry Allen wrenches with them. Also, it would be harder to get to unless the trill keys were taken off. Finally, charge them $$$$ when they mess with it and the clarinet won't play anything below C!!
I don't use leather on the bridge key or F# arm (upper joint). I've seen it tear and hang up too often, especially on the F#. I either use the cork laminate or use the sheet teflon. On the lower joint I put ultra-suede underneath so when the key hits the body it isn't as noisey.
jbutler
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-03-20 23:02
I like the idea of an adjustment screw. As jbutler said, it would have to have a nylon insert or equivalent to prevent the screw from turning independently during use, in which case it would be worse than useless and loctite would have to applied at every adjustment. Perhaps this potential problem has already been solved?
Hans
Post Edited (2003-07-18 23:16)
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-21 03:46
Hi Peter:
"JJM,
If Buffet ever starts putting these screws on, I will be taking them off before sale!"
It's nice to know your feelings on this most essential addition to my clarinet.
Regards,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-03-21 08:14
I think it's a great idea, I'd be interested in getting it added to my clarinet. I was just thinking about this the other day too!
Speaking of customisation, anyone got anything interesting done? A repair tech once suggested replacing my 'bannana keys' with shorter flute trill keys, not sure what that would be like... Also suggested putting a slider on the top one, since I have been known to slide (successfully!!!) from Eb to [middle] C!
Also, removing the 'crows feet' mechanism from the RH little finger keys, replacing it with the mechanism like Peter Eaton clarinets.
Maybe I'll do it to my R13 when I get my new pair.... HAHA!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-03-21 11:35
Certainly some food for thought here. As to why the tech used leather on the student's horn, perhaps it was the only media with the correct thickness he had available just then.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-21 13:03
- I don't use leather for anything. I have found what I regard as better materials for every application.
- On this linkage I normally use neoprene based agglomerated cork or "Techcork" or 'Hycotex" - all very similar .
- Adjusting screws, even when nylon/teflon tipped, are far noisier than cork unless they hit down upon a silencing material. Under these screws I use "microfibre" synthetic leather, the material used for Music Center's (Pisoni's) top-of-the-range sax pad covering, 0.4 mm thick, which is many times tougher than leather but in all other respects very similar.
- Leather tends to be a lot noisier than cork in a location like this of large surface area where there can be a 'slapping' effect as the A/D key lands on the leather. To reduce this noise, a very small area of leather could be used, say a 2 mm diameter circle.
- A reason for putting the 'cork' on the lower arm is laziness. The key does not need to be removed to install it.
- A reason for putting it on the upper arm is that it is far better protected form fingers rubbing it off while handling the instrument.
- A technician with appropriate equipment and skill should not be leaving marks during adjustment.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-03-21 13:35
Just a thought:
A long time ago, when I was a student of Herb Couf’s in Detroit, he introduced me to a fine old repairman, Cass Burris. Cass was legendary in the Detroit area, and did fine work for all the professionals in the Detroit Sym., and also worked on kids horns.
On one of my many trips to see Cass, I asked him to quiet down and perhaps replace the metal screw in my “A/G#” key to make it play and feel better.
His reply was similar to Peter Spriggs, “I’d just as soon take the damn thing off all the clarinets I get, it’s just a nuisance, and no one adjusts it correctly anyway.” He showed me his old, very old, clarinet that did not have the adjustment screw, with a nice little cork, making the action and feel smooth.
I told him that as the pads change, or for whatever reason, I need the flexibility to be able to adjust the “A/G#” at will. He reluctantly replaced the little cork under the screw, mumbling something under his breath.
So, by way of this distant memory of wonderful Cass Burris, I still recommend new improvements that I have found helpful in my professional life of clarinet playing Most of my students make the modifications I recommend, some don’t. The adjustment screw on the bridge-key mechanism I described earlier, is a fine improvement on a troublesome spot on the clarinet. I think it should be included on all professional horns, as those players know how to handle the delicate adjustments necessary to make it work properly. In the wrong hands, there might be problems, so a kid’s horn doesn’t need the improvement.
I believe change is good, and experimentation is necessary if we are to keep our old “acoustic” instruments alive. Some changes will be tried and fail, others will improve our instrument and benefit all. Let’s keep up the dialogue and good ideas.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-03-21 14:28
The problem with cork under the on the A key (under the G#) in the upper joint is that cork tends to compress. Thus, as the cork compresses it results in too much "lost motion" before it picks up the G# key. Also, most adjustment screws over time impale themselves through the cork anyway, so there is still metal/metal contact. I think the best solution is to not put anything on top of the A key or use a nylon screw. The action is a little noisier without any silencing material on the G# or A key, but at least it will stay in adjustment. I think that if anything is to be used at all perhaps a cut of teflon sheet or other high density material should be used.
jbutler
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-22 02:38
That is funny.
If you have an adjusting screw it keeps compressing the cork (whatever) beneath it so you need an adjusting screw!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-03-23 13:23
In my amateur "technician" work I find that improper adjustment of the A/G# screw to be a major cause of "squawking" problems. On some horns the exact adjustment necessary is so minute as to be almost unbelievable.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-03-23 17:39
Under adjustment screws on oboes and clarinets, I have been using sax pad leather because it lasts longer than cork. There is no other instrument use for leather that I can think of except for case covering. It seems to cause more trouble than it is worth and is hard to adjust in thickness.
In addition to being noisy, metal screws to metal key parts seem to require perfect adjustment for oboes while the leather under the screw has a very tiny amount of give which allows for a microscopic amount of misadjustment. With a metal to metal contact, the oboe just doesn't play as good, being usually slightly out of adjustment. Oboes are much more critical than clarinets for adjustments.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-23 22:00
Wes, if you like leather here, then definitely try the Microfiber I mentioned above. It behaves similarly to leather in every way except that it is many times tougher. The tips of screws quickly punch a hole through leather.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-03-23 22:38
I sometimes use a small piece snipped from the end of a plastic wire tie to use between metal to metal contact points. You will have to file it to the correct thickness.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-03-24 00:01
Gordon (NZ),
Thanks for the tip about the microfiber leather - I'm off to the fabric store to see if I can find some. Is this stuff call Pleather?
What do you like to use where slipping must occur? I'm thinking of the thumb F/C and the LH little finger (or pinky) C/F.
Thanks,
Ray, who still has no flute.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-03-24 02:53
Thanks, Gordon. I always pay attention to your posts. So far, I haven't found it convenient to chase down Pisoni sax pads but I'll look for them.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-24 09:57
I don't think these Microfibre pads are being marketed in America. However I think Kraus has some stocks that they are selling off cheap. Your local supplier could possibly get some. I buy it in sheet form direct from Music Center in Italy, who stock it in brown and white.
Although this "Microfibre" resembles synthetic leather, I have no idea what it may have in common with anything you can buy at a fabric or upholstery store. Even materials that look the same may behave very differently.
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Author: Peter Spriggs
Date: 2003-03-25 17:29
Mr Botch,
I do use teflon in several areas that you might be suprised at but not there.
Mr Butler,
Of course leather will tear up, but only if the person installing it has not found a way to install in a manner that does not allow it to!
Peter
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-26 05:16
"Of course leather will tear up, but only if the person installing it has not found a way to install in a manner that does not allow it to!"
The end of a small diameter screw, scraped across onto or across a thin leather membrane, chews it up. The reality is that most players do not close the A/D key and keep the low ring key open in order to avoid this.
Of course the chewing is drastically reduced if the end of the screw has a hemispherical, polished end. I would still never use leather on a bridge key. And the Microfibre is still better IMO in every way.
Perhaps you would care to elaborate, Peter.
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-03-26 08:22
you know, an adjusting screw on the linkage is really quite a practical idea, and it shouldn't really be so hard to find a way to make it NOT make noise or tear up whatever it's going to connect with....
as for the adjusting screw on the A/G# key... well, i actually put a small section of Bay mouthpiece pad ("thin black" cut to size) under this on my A clarinet, and have had no problems whatsoever in the years/hours of playing since. i imagine that this material would connect quite efficiently with a screw at the linkage- esp if the end of the screw were to be flattened out and the edges rounded off.
Now, excuse me, but if i had a screw there i imagine myself smart enough to adjust it correctly.
to quote from Arthur Ransome... "better drowned than duffers, if not duffers, won't drown"
eh?
donal
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-26 10:23
"you know, an adjusting screw on the linkage is really quite a practical idea, and it shouldn't really be so hard to find a way to make it NOT make noise or tear up whatever it's going to connect with...."
Yes. The adjusting and linkage silencing functions can be separated.
Method 1. The screw presses against a small springy metal plate, which in turn is covered with silencing material where it touches the other key. I've never seen this on clarinet but the concept is reasonably common on oboes and whisper keys of bassoons, in locations that involve linkages but not instrument disassembly. It would be tricky to design for this bridge particular location of a clarinet, and probably impractical to make.
Method 2. The A/D key is hinged not with point screws at each end, but with a hinge tube hinging on a steel shaft. This tube is cut through, say 15 mm from the lower post, and tabs fixed to each tube at the cut, such that an adjusting screw mounted on the lower part operates the upper part (with the pad and ring key on it) via the tab on the upper part.
At least one clarinet maker uses this. Howarth maybe.
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