 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-03-11 06:33
do you recommend doubling on any other instrument?
as in play another woodwind instrument (my main point here) besides the clarinet frequently, while not throwing the clarinet away of course...
i've heard claims that doing so may cause you to spoil your embouchure
is that true?
i play both oboe and clarinet. what major frauds will i face when i go to the next level. i'm an amatuer on both the instruments.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-11 10:29
If you practice both you get good at both.
For your legs, swimming does not wreck your walking.
For your tongue, talking does not wreck your tonguing.
For your lips, drinking does not wreck your embouchure.
For your lungs, blowing balloons does not wreck your support.
...etc...
Indeed, many of these things have positive spin-off.
I know from experience that the effect of flute on reeds is neglible compared with the effect of reeds on flute, but with practice these effects are overcome.
Is there anything wrong with Sir James Galway's flute playing?
With respect to his flute playing he wrote, quote,
"I play the french horn and saxaphone ( real bad on both) and it has not affected my embouchure at all. In fact, playing the french horn actually improved it. I became more aware of the changes which are necessary on the flute. My brother plays the flute, Clarinet and Sax andI I think he is great on the flute.
"Go for it! Ignore the purists!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-03-11 11:45
Hi,
There has been a lot of discussion in past threads about ruining your embouchure and from my expereince (I double on all sorts of stuff and even had a go at tuba as well), there is no effect. The discussions on the BB had the same conclusion.
Now, if you have a faulty clarinet embouchure to begin with, the story might be different.
HRL
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-03-11 13:07
i'm not sure if i'm having a faulty embouchure on the clarinet....
can you you explain pls?....
thnx
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-11 13:34
Well- just after playing English Horn, when I switch back to clarinet my embouchure always feels weird. I looked in the mirror one day and I still had more or less the same double reed embouchure when I went back for the first couple minutes.
There are many ways your embouchure can be faulty- but a good embouchure is a flat chin, flat bottom lip covering the bottom row of teeth, and firm mouth corners- to me.
I know this is hard to explain, but try saying the word "wee" exaggerating your mouth movements as you say it, and hold the way your mouth changed. Your chin should now be flat and your bottom lip should be flat stretching across the bottom teeth. Then, try to say the word "two" while holding the original position your mouth formed say "wee". This should more or less give you the correct clarinet embouchure.
Bradley
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-03-11 16:53
I took years of good-humored crap from Messrs. Brody and Marcellus on this point (who could pass up an opportunity to insult the saxophone?), but doubling is a reality of finding work unless you land one of those precious few symphonic gigs that can actually pay the bills. As a lifelong doubler (tripler, whatever), I've never had problems with my embouchere going back and forth. Admittedly, making quick switches in the pit from bass clar or bari sax to flute results in what I would describe as less-than-Kincaidian tone quality, but it is manageable. The risk to your technique is really no greater than having to switch between the soprano and harmony clarinets over the course of a Mahler symphony. Practice, practice, practice, and oh yeah, practice.
A lot of great players have managed -- Bil Jackson, Eddie Daniels, Dan Spitzer, many denizens of this Bboard, and have 2die4 clarinet sound/technique. So again, practice. Get proficient on both instruments, play regularly, and you'll be fine.
BTW, the doublers who can play single and double reeds WELL are a precious commodity. Master that, and there is work to be had.
Enjoy!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-03-11 17:06
The practice on one woodwind instrument seems to help the playing on a different one but one must practice on all the doubles one has. Time for practice seems to be the only consideration.
One also finds that the embouchure for the different woodwinds occurs in different places on the lips. In my case, the oboe embouchure is in one place on the lips, the clarinet embouchure is lateral from the oboe embouchure, and the flute embouchure is in a third place. They don't compete for the same muscles.
Breath control is different on each instrument.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-03-11 23:43
Doubling requires practice and a reality check. Most doublers would still have a main instrument that they would prefer. The reality check is that you cannot necessarily be a prodigy on all instruments. Doubling is a professional necessity. Orchestral clarinettists double at the very least Bb and A and often Eb, bass, bassett horn etc. although few would double saxophone because of embouchure concerns, orchestral clarinet playing is hard enough without adding sax. The impossible doubles written into theatre scores lead to high levels of mediocrity, the top theatre players excluded of course. My doubles are Soprano, Alto, C melody and Tenor saxes, clarinet these days Bb only and bassoon which is the only instrument, with the exception of a little sax, that I play orchestrally; I am also a jazz pianist. I can play the flute but do not advertise the double because of insufficient practice time but I still get gigs. Likewise Oboe and Cor. I refuse to play Baritone or Bass Sax or Bass clarinet for my own reasons, ie. I dont like playing them and find they interfere with other doubles. I have set other rules for myself also. I do not double bassoon and any other horn on a gig for a number of reasons. I try to avoid sax to sax doubles because I find this more difficult than sax/clarinet. I am not a theatre player so I can avoid ridiculous doubling. I would say these days that my main instrument is the saxophone but I play equal Alto/Tenor. I still play a lot of clarinet both by itself and as a double. This week I have one straight tenor gig, one lead Alto/Clarinet, one straight clarinet and a couple of piano. The tactic is knowing how and when to practice each and prepare reeds etc..
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Author: squeaker
Date: 2003-03-12 05:42
I hate to tell all of the respondants, but you really can't compare double reed embouchers to those of a single reed. That's like comparing my clarinet embouchure to my cello bowing technique - it's irrelevant. The only way to hurt your clarinet embouchure is if you use a sax, or bass clarinet one instead. The problem with single reed doubling is that once you learn the other embouchures you can confuse them. I play all the clarinets, flutes, saxophones, and the cello. I started on clarinet (as you did?), and my problem is playing the other insturments with my clarinet embouchure. The main thing my teaher told me was to think the insturment I was playing at the time, this handles fingering mixups and embouchure problems.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-03-12 12:20
I wouldn't be at all surprised that you would have a problem using your clarinet embouchere on cello. :->
If anyone is applying the wrong embouchere to an instrument, that is either a rookie mistake of a newly minted doubler, or just plain bad technique. Changing your embouchere becomes as fluid as changing key systems with proper instruction and practice. No different than speaking multiple languages fluently, or going back and forth between standard and automatic transmission cars. "Thinking the instrument" is good advice, but should go without saying.
So, back to the original question for the thread, yes, doubling is a worthwhile endeavor. No it won't spoil your embouchere if you recognize that each instrument requires separate technical skills, and you practice each instrument enough to be proficient.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-12 12:57
"I am not a theatre player so I can avoid ridiculous doubling."
I am a theatre player, just come home form pic/flute/clarinet/soprano sax/alto sax. Over 50 instrument changes during the night, many of them within seconds. I have practiced changes. With practice the changes become easy. It is in no way "impossible". It is little different form the person who can walk, run, skip, ride a bike, water ski, and skate. With practice they do not interfere with eachother.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-03-12 14:53
Thoughtful and thought-provoking responses. I had a friend who doubled alto sax and oboe. After the first few months, he appeared to have no problem at all with the differing embouchures. I once majored in Clarinet but played bassoon in the college orchestra (unless viola was my instrument of the day). But my double-reed playing was really for personal enjoyment. At about the same time, I began playing sax (alto or baritone) for economic reasons; it was much easier to get gigs as a saxophone player. I never observed any significant embouchure problem. Of course, doubling single- and double-reed is a different matter. By the way: I also play flute, but not well enough to do it before 10 PM.
someone, have you ever tried playing Clarinet with double-lip embouchure?
Regards,
John
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-03-12 15:15
msloss [et al]- Your posts are much appreciated, you are obviously much more pro than I, but I've had those experiences also, playing 4 [3 saxes and cl] in dance band combos, musicals 2 or 3, incl. oboe, bass cl and bari sax as well, and now needing a bari for a sax-section number where I'm the bass cl in our comm band. "I'm getting too oldt for this funny game!" I havent had embouchure transition probs. other than fatigue [rubberlips!]. Still fun tho. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-03-13 04:56
yes i've tried double lip embouchure on clarinet before, but it doesn't seem to be as good as the normal embouchure we use. the point here is, i'm a 3 year clarinet player and one year oboist (my band needs a replacement),
i still want to play clarinet without ruining my oboe embouchure. and i believe that being good at one instrument is always better than being nothing in a hundread instruments, right?
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-03-13 05:16
Quite right, but there should be no reason why you can't be good at more than one.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-03-13 12:42
Don B,
You are indeed a brave soul. After two years of low reed books in Chicago, I said "never again". I was never in better shape hauling those behemoths around, but it was just too physically draining getting to the gig, setting all the hardware up, and making the switches. Anybody who does the Bari/Bass/Clar/Flute book should get sideman, doubler, cartage, and roadie pay just for the sweat you work up.
Wouldn't it be great if you could have a valet in the pit or in the dance band to carry your instruments, keep your reeds wet, hand you the right horn at the right time, turn your pages... "Nurse, oboe! Stat!"
Best,
Mark
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-03-13 13:47
TKS, Mark, you sure say it well [experience!!]. I once racked-up my knees, lugging a low A bari etc up the ramp from the pit at our community center. Never Again ! the slow/awkward eleviator is preferred. Am considering NOT taking that dern low Bb [also] to T-town tonite, but will practice transp'ing it onto bass, till the concert, unless conductor threatens my life, as Jimmy Dorsey is reputed to have said, "Hit him, but not on the lip"!! Regards, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-14 04:07
First you stop lugging the bari, then the tenor, then the clari, then flute & piccolo, and in no time at all you've finished even with lugging yourself!
The short slippery slope!
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Author: SusanB
Date: 2003-03-15 17:50
I played some tenor sax before and liked it. Seems like the older I get, the harder it is for me to learn new tricks! I stick with clarinets now. I mainly play Bb. I also play bass, and I have played some Eb. At one symphony concert, I played a solo on the Eb and then switched to bass for the rest of the concert. I have also dabbled in oboe. That is one difficult instrument!
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Author: SJ
Date: 2003-03-16 23:08
I've been lugging a dozen cases or so for the past forty years twenty in the LA studios and the last twenty in Las Vegas sowrooms. Doubling requires obvious practice on the individual instrument to keep the physical part of it up but more than that, it requires a mind set as to the capibility and sound of each horn. English horn needs a completely different thought process from say piccolo or bari sax.
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Author: lemilie
Date: 2003-03-25 00:07
i've found that doubling can make me an even better clarinet player. i've played alto and tenor sax, because i wanted to play jazz and my band teacher wouldn't let me on clarinet. it improved my air support greatly, and i didn't notice any bad side effects, though my private teacher thought i would be unable to play clarinet well afterwards. this year i've doubled on english horn, mainly out of necessity. we are doing les miserables, and it has an important english horn part. as a result, i've found i can also play oboe. playing double reeds has helped with my embouchure because it has strengthened my lip muscles and made me bring in my corners. english horn also increased my air focus.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-03-25 12:04
Hi,
I have really enjoyed the discussion on this thread. I am a doubler (all the saxes and clarinets plus oboe and bassoon) and have had no problems over the years even from clarinet to sax which is mentally, a tough one until you "be the ball." Oops, that's golf and I should have said "be the instrument." I think erything has been said except I need to recognize my teacher.
To Karl Witzler, my college woodwind teacher at Ohio U so many years ago, "Thanks Karl." You even showed how to make oboe reeds (which I mastered enough to make some for students that worked and earner Superiors at contest).
Without the gifted teacher to help you over the humps, learning the correct embouchure, fingerings, etc. or just learning to correctly get the basics can be tough.
HRL
PS If there is such a thing as re-incarnation Lord, please bring me back as a bassoon player! Now there is a really cool instrument.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-03-25 17:20
I double on sax and have had no adverse affects from switching. I think it makes one become aware on the instrument of choice as to what one can do with one's embouchure. sadly, I think too many people say nasy thinkgs about saxophone, which is truly a difficult instrument in its own right. Very few legit clarinetists try the saxophone, but I have found it to enhance my perception about sound and playing the clarinet...
David Dow
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