 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kenabbott
Date: 2003-03-09 00:04
I now occupy the peculiar position of a reasonably serious instrument collector looking for a clarinet for my 8-year-old daughter. I won't let her use one of my good ones (10G, R13, Patricola or Rossi). Not yet, anyway.
I could fix up my Conn hard rubber clarinet, buy her a Vito plastic horn (these seem to get very good press here), buy her a student Buffet (or maybe an Evette-Schaefer or Signet), or I could spring for a Selmer 9 or 9* with the hope that she abandons clarinet after a few years and it comes to me. Or maybe I buy the 9/9* for me and let her "use" it with the understanding that she gets to keep it if she sticks with it.
What have you all experienced when your kids take an interest in the clarinet?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-03-09 00:07
Get her a student (plastic) horn made by one of the Big 4. Even kids that are careful sometimes have catastrophes due to lack of experience.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-09 00:10
kenabbott wrote:
> I now occupy the peculiar position of a reasonably serious
> instrument collector looking for a clarinet for my 8-year-old
> daughter. I won't let her use one of my good ones (10G, R13,
> Patricola or Rossi). Not yet, anyway.
Oh, c'mon now. Spoilsport!
My son started on a Vito, moved to a Selmer 10G (I inherited the Vito & started playing), a pair of Festivals (I inherited the 10G, sold the Vito), and it wouldn't surprise me if he started playing Yamahas in a year or two - but somehow I don't think I'll get the Festivals this time.
In other words ...
Make sure she has something that you'd want later ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-03-09 00:31
kenabbott...I never had children, thus no personal first hand experiences to share. But as a former public school music teacher, I have witnessed far too many dropped clarinets by kids, as well as their friends who just wanted to "take a look" at it.
The most "combat friendly" clarinet is probably the Vito V-40. Relatively indestructable, easily repaired.
Why not get her one to use (or even leave) at school, while playing and practicing on one of your good ones at home? Ultimately, if you purchase 2 identical mouthpieces she could leave one mouthpiece and clarinet at school all the time...GBK
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-03-09 08:15
Don't forget, also, that a good clarinet is not necessarily the same thing as a good clarinet for an 8-year old.
A plastic instrument will be lighter than a wooden one. Also check that she can cover the holes. My Yamaha YCL26, though a student instrument, has a very large hole 6 that even I struggle to cover; the corresponding hole on a B12 is much smaller.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-09 08:46
I started on a Selmer 1400- and let me tell you, I really dont think that is a good choice for an instrument to start on ( or any other time playing hehe) . They have huge keys, cramped placement, and they really make you work for a good tone.
Now playing on a Leblanc, I find my fingers in really bad positions as a result of the 1400's placement and me getting used to it ( in beginning band and now marching- although I am definetly changing to maybe a greenline for next year since I might have solos and I dont want any surprises from the 1400) and now I am too lazy to change my finger placements over certain keys- although I am trying and learning from Julie's articles on technique and "how to hold the clarinet" .
By saying all of that, what I really mean to say is- if you decide to get her a plastic clarinet, go with a Vito or a Selmer 301 ( new model with smaller bore and better mechanism).
If you decide to go with the Vito, you might even want to decide against the V40 since it has gold springs which can snap easily . You might want to get a 7214 or maybe change the gold springs to copper.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-09 09:54
Vitos indestructible????
I service many more Yamahas than Vitos. I have repaired several times more broken tenons on Vitos than Yamahas.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-09 11:28
But Yamahas arent as good in my opinion for any level clarinet vs. their french equivalent in any of its three counterparts (Leblanc, Buffet and Selmer).
So as far as a GOOD plastic clarinet goes- Vitos are the most indestructible of them all.....
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Author: kenabbott
Date: 2003-03-09 13:10
What's the difference between the Vito V40, the Reso-tone, and 7212, and the 7214?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-03-09 14:02
The Vito V40 has undercut tone holes like the upper-level models. The plastic has a wood like grain to make it look more like wood. It has a bit better key work than the Reso-tone (one of Vito's older models), the 7212, or the 7214. The V40 is worth the extra money, in my opinion, because it's a much better sounding and playing instrument.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-03-09 14:14
Have you considered renting a clarinet for a few months to see if she stays interested?
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-03-09 14:17
I recall (about fourty years ago, and that a long recall) I was in Paris and bought my daughter a beautiful Selmer with thoughts that I would get it when she decided she did not want to play it. By the time she made up her mind she was married and gone. I asked about it but she had sold it to buy a horse. I admit I like horses, but only grilled with mushrooms.
Bob A
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Author: Webmaster
Date: 2003-03-09 14:35
The differences I know: 7212 - shiny plastic. 7214 - brushed plastic (I had a 7214)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-03-09 19:51
The right clarinet for your beginner is the one they'll cough up allowance money to use...
I would say that any serviceable Vito (model number won't really matter) under $200 is the way to go...
Better yet, investigate fixed-term rental locally.
You don't really need ANOTHER horn in the collection, dooYA?
Start pawing through the mouthpiece stash, now to get a decent Brilhart or modern equivalent student mouthpiece.
The Legere reed that fits the facing will give your kid less hassle than cane.
(Perhaps we should be assessed 2 cents for each opinion?)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-09 20:19
Bradley wrote:
"But Yamahas arent as good in my opinion for any level clarinet vs. their french equivalent in any of its three counterparts (Leblanc, Buffet and Selmer).
So as far as a GOOD plastic clarinet goes- Vitos are the most indestructible of them all....."
I would strenuously disagree with excluding Yamahas from the "good" category, and many others would also. I would like to know on what expereince with Yamahas you base your comments, and how old tghe instruments were. Incidentally, I agree that a 40 year old Yamaha is not good. but that is hardly relevant.
As for construction, the plastic Yamaha, as far as I know, is the only one robust enough to have srewed in posts, as do all professional instrumnets.
The current Buffet plastic clarinet is shoddy enough to have nickel plated PLASTIC tenon socket rings. These offer almost zero strength where it is needed here. I have already encountered split rings and broken tenon sockets.
AS for the construction of professional French instruments - As a technician I see enough new SElmers and Buffets to say with confidence that examples of shoddy manufacturing for these two makes are very common indeed, whereas they are extremely rare for Yamaha.
This is the year 2003, not 1960!.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-09 22:29
I would like to "base" my comments on the experience with the new Yamahas that I have tried. I actually bought a Yamaha YCL-250 for marching band, and later sold it to RETURN to my horrible Selmer, so you figure out where Yamahas stand with me........
I have also test played the YCL-34 , YCL-52, YCL-64, CX, CSV, and SEV extensively and I still prefer even Buffets to them, much less Selmers or Leblancs. I must admit that the custom models are not bad, but I just prefer Leblancs etc. to them. Since we are only talking about the student models however, my comment still stands.
The older Yamahas that were before the new YCL-250, I like better in the case of Yamahas.
They might not break down as easy supposedly as other brands, but I wouldnt sacrifice a good mechanism and overall tone for durability even when learning the clarinet. The girl isnt gonna throw it in front of a truck hopefully, so a good Vito should be fine.
Also- please remember that these are my OPINIONS so they are allowed to differ from yours, but in my experience - these are my findings.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-10 01:18
Perhaps there are other factors involved here, such as the way the instrument was adjusted.
It is also possible that the straight-from-Japan Yamahas I see here are significantly different in important respects from those marketed in USA, where I assume you sourced your Yamaha.
So many variables!
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-10 02:25
Exactly......
I hate inconsistencies like that!
When I was reading your comments I was baffled because they were so different from mine- and I know that neither of us could have really seen that many "duds" or "special" Yamahas.
I didnt really take into consideration where you are in the world....
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-03-10 03:03
Question for anyone who might know the answer: Aren't some student Yamahas still manufactured by Vito? If so, which ones?
Thanks,
John
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-03-11 02:42
My daughter started playing on a Yamaha YCL-20A (the "A" at the end of the serial# and/or model# indicates that it was made here in the US) This horn served her well. She then moved to a Yamaha YCL-32 (the last of the intermediate Yamaha horns with wood tone holes. The next model YCL-34 had plastic tone hole inserts.) Again she did well. She currently plays a Buffet C12 mostly and has a vintage R13 as a concert horn. (I have this arrangement because she is 13) The point of all of this is the Yamaha horns are good for beginners. Not to mention that is isn't hard to find a Yamaha dealer for repairs, parts, or adjustment when and if needed. Just my two cents.
Mark
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Author: supernova_khr
Date: 2003-03-11 14:27
If she's only 8, a full size clarinet may be a bit too much for her. Her hands just need to be a bit bigger. My son started at age 11, and it took several months to build up the finger strength needed. Have you got an Eb in your stash of instruments that she could start on? I have a 9 year old who can get a scale out of my Eb, where she can't play the Bb at all.
Another option for an 8 year old is the recorder. She can learn coordination, basic fingering and note reading from that, and then when she's bigger, switch her to the clarinet.
If size isn't a problem for her, I don't see what's wrong with fixing up your hard rubber Conn. Just make sure it isn't an instrument you're extremely attached to, or that she's supervised always when playing it. It's amazing how a child is able to break things!
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-03-11 16:06
Hi Gord,
I don't know what the difference is, if any, between Yamaha instruments sold in your part of the world and ours, but I personally know people here that used to swear by Yamaha clarinets, who played them for years, but who are walking around today steering others away from Yamaha clarinets.
I've heard various and sundry reasons for this. The most prevalent ones are bad adjustment and parts (particularly pads, but ocassionally others as well) falling off the instrument, even as you are playing it. Mechanical failures follows those others.
I have not heard any complaints about the tone or intonation once the instruments are in good repair, or about any mechanical problems returning after they are repaired, but they do seem to have to be repaired, too often right out of the box.
The ones I have personally tried, have been mechanically awkward for me, so I have never gone beyond just trying one out. I have noticed quite inconsistent spring tension, etc, in most of the ones I have tried, but I, personally have not had a pad or anything else fall out during any trial or "straight out of the box," as I have heard someone else claim.
If they all come out of the same factory, why would ones going to Australia or New Zealand be better built than ones coming to the U.S.?
Peter
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-11 16:14
Peter wrote:
> If they all come out of the same factory, why would ones going
> to Australia or New Zealand be better built than ones coming to
> the U.S.?
The lower end Yamahas destined for N. America are assembled in Grand Rapids, MI from parts shipped from Japan. I don't know about the instruments shipped to Oz and NZ.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-03-11 21:53
Hmmm, then I guess we are doing this to ourselves.
I have never paid attention to whether the serial numbers included a letter "A," or not. Really, I have never looked at any of the serial numbers of the Yamaha instruments I've tried out, I'll make a point of looking in the future just to see what I see. For personal reference.
Hopefully the U.S. Yamahas are no longer made by Leblanc, I would hope that even as "stencils" Leblanc would do a better job!
Wow, if that's the case, that the U.S. Yamaha clarinets are made in G.R., MI, they should be ashamed of their lack of quality control.
We are at a crucial point in time, where we should be showing other peoples, not just the Japanese, that our national products (what's left of them) can be, and are (as they should be) of competitive quality to any other similar products in the world. Unfortunately, they are less so as time goes by.
I, too am ashamed for them...
Peter
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-11 22:04
Peter wrote:
> Hmmm, then I guess we are doing this to ourselves.
>
...
> Wow, if that's the case, that the U.S. Yamaha clarinets are
> made in G.R., MI, they should be ashamed of their lack of
> quality control.
I wrote:
> The lower end Yamahas destined for N. America are assembled in Grand
> Rapids, MI from parts shipped from Japan. I don't know about the
> instruments shipped to Oz and NZ.
Which means I don't know about the instruments shipped to Oz and NZ! They might come from Grand Rapids. Please don't jump to conclusions.
Leblanc was not to be seen when I was invited for tour of the plant 3 years ago.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-03-11 22:37
The "A" means it was built here. ("A"= America) Info came from a Yamaha dealer who also toured the American plant. An interesting note; I have a YAS-23 saxophone, model number and serial number without the "A". When I ordered a pad set, (it really needed it) I was informed that my horn was made in Japan and required a different pad set than the American made horns. The pads had to be brought in from Japan. I was lucky that they maintain a stock here in the US. The American horns use a pad set from a local company but, I don't remember the name (this was a while ago).
Mark
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-11 22:48
I was assured by the manager of the NZ Yamaha importer in New Zealand, a year or two ago, that all the woodwind came direct from Japan.
It looks as if anything that is responsible for a bad name that Yamaha may have in USA is related to the work done in America - padding, corking, adjustment. It is VERY rare for pads or corks to fall off Yamahas here - even after many years.
It is a pity that that the USA component tends to reflect pooly but unfairly on Japanese manufacture.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-03-11 23:00
The same thing goes for Japanese Automobiles made to be exported to the U.S.
Living in Jamaica, I know from experience that Japan sends different (poorer) models in their line to the U.S.
I say Japan- because I did not want to list Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Honda.
Jamaica gets the faster, better built versions of all of these straight from Japan ( using all the japanese parts etc. )
The same also goes for Cellular Phones. Nokia sends phones much more advanced to Jamaica and other parts of the world, and the same goes for Motorola, Ericsson, and Samsung. All of the companies got together and set up a GSM infrastructure in Jamaica and other places years ago- years before T-Mobile (formerly Voicestream) has been trying to do it for a few years now. GSM is twice the quality reception with twice the range, and it also means you can use DSL connections on your Cell Phone- with complete mobility.
What I am trying to say is- these companies are all just sending second rate products ( a lot of the time) to the U.S.
It isnt just Japan- as Nokia and Ericsson are from Scandinavia and Samsung is Korean.
My question for you all is- is this a conspiracy? LOL
Bradley
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-03-11 23:07
> The same also goes for Cellular Phones. Nokia sends phones much
> more advanced to Jamaica and other parts of the world, and the
> same goes for Motorola, Ericsson, and Samsung. All of the
> companies got together and set up a GSM infrastructure in
> Jamaica and other places years ago- years before T-Mobile
> (formerly Voicestream) has been trying to do it for a few years
> now. GSM is twice the quality reception with twice the range,
> and it also means you can use DSL connections on your Cell
> Phone- with complete mobility.
Hello again, Bradley.
I helped form a mobile communications company a couple of years back (and still retain an interest in it - http://www.connectione.com - though we've not realized any profit yet).
The GSM infrastructure set up in those countries was significantly easier to do since the US really diod the groundwork on the 1st & some of the 2nd generation telephone systems. Those countries that waited were able to get into the newer generation for a significantly lower cost because of the innovations in cell phone technology infrastructure here. Now that we have obsolete infrastructure here, the costs of upgrading it are very high.
It costs a lot to be a first ...
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