 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: RKM
Date: 2003-03-06 00:49
I just started with a new teacher. Although he was highly recommended, a professional musician, and seems reasonably competent in most respects, I was quite taken aback by the amount of air leaking from around his lips when he demonstrates something. I've just never encountered anyone who leaked this much air as a standard way of playing. He's using a fairly stiff reed, of course, but this air leakage is not something that increases over time, it's how he plays normally.
Is this something that should cause me to have concerns over his competency?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarigurl
Date: 2003-03-06 02:05
my private teacher also has some leaking air. not to worry though. they are just filling up their instrument like they tell us all to do.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Heidi
Date: 2003-03-06 03:53
Hello!
I find leaking air a big distraction. I heard a professional octet play in a masterclass one time. They were absolutely wonderful in blending, tunefulness, etc....except the principal clarinetist leaked air like there was no tomorrow. Needless to say, it took away from the performance as a whole in my opinion.
My teachers dicourage this in me...because sometimes it does happen. But I don't think there is any reason it can't be fixed. Some clarinet players play like that...it's their style and they're going to keep with it.
Just my $.02!
Heidi
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-03-06 04:15
As long as you don't leak air, no big concern. In most cases, the sound of the clarinet will be louder than the sound of the leaking air. So it'll be covered. And if you don't want to leak air, don't. The teacher will teach you technique and studies and help you to get better. The air leakage is up to you. He won't "teach" you to leak air or not.
Alexi
PS - My teacher leaks air too. It seems to me that he only leaks air when he's playing softly. I assume this is to keep a steadier air flow since it's hard to have a steady air flow with not much air flowing.
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-03-06 06:37
I once heard an excellent professional clarinetist who leaked air. His colleagues loved his playing, but his leaking did disturb them! Like Alexi says, the clarinet sound will be louder than the leaking air sound. But most non-clarinet players don't realise that it's the air coming out of the sides of the mouth, and think that it's part of the clarinet sound. They would think that your teacher has an "airy sound". This air leakage will also be picked up in a recording studio, and can not be edited out afterwards.
The fact that your teacher leaks air doesn't mean that he is incompetent in other respects of playing. But it's definitely not an aspect of his playing that you want to copy!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-03-06 11:43
Perhaps there was nothing wrong with your first teacher either.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: utaclarinetchick
Date: 2003-03-06 15:09
Most of the clarinetists at my school have an air leak. They all sound great, but it just really annoys me. I was taught that it was horrible and meant that your embocure was not strong enough. I don't have one and when I hear someone playing one, it just bugs me.
-Annie
Truly fertile Music, the only kind that will move us, that we shall truly appreciate, will be a Music conducive to Dream, which banishes all reason and analysis. One must not wish first to understand and then to feel. Art does not tolerate Reason.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2003-03-06 16:24
One of the finest players I remember leaked a lot of air. He was the late Walter Thalin, the first clarinet of the Minneapolis Symphony in the 50's and before. In the orchestra, you couldn't hear it and, on his Selmers, he had a wonderful sound which was obviously partly due to the high air pressure he was providing to the reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RKM
Date: 2003-03-06 17:15
>>Perhaps there was nothing wrong with your first teacher either.<<
Actually, my last teacher was 30 years ago. Since he was at retirement age back then, there's a very good chance that the only air he's leaking now is methane. <g> (Ouch...)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Meri
Date: 2003-03-06 17:36
I personally find it annoying, I think it detracts from the sound quality. At a Richard Stolzman Masterclass a few weeks ago in Toronto, one of the performers I thought had a really beautiful sound--but, to me, it was somewhat negated the sound quality!
I know Joaquin Valdepenas of the Toronto Symphony is one of the air leakers, although it tends to occur at louder dynamic levels.
Meri
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Todd W.
Date: 2003-03-06 17:46
JFTR:
"Truly fertile Music, . . . "
Albert Camus (1913-1960)
Todd W.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-03-06 18:03
The last two people I've studied with -- principals in Colorado and in California -- have leaked air. Why? I don't know. However, they are both wonderful musicians and excellent clarinetists. And the leakage could NOT be heard by the audience. (My former teacher in Colorado actually teaches an embouchure that is designed to NOT leak air! Go figure.) (He also occasionally uses a tasteful vibrato, but doesn't teach it.)
After a long day of rehearsals and practicing, I've been known to leak like a busted pipe. It makes the last hour and a half of a Kodaly/Bartok rehearsal much easier.
Leaking facilitates some things, depending on your embouchure, mouthpiece, reeds, etc. It doesn't, in my opinion and experience, effect intonation, blending, balance, phrasing, or articulation (except sometimes making it easier). If you've got a problem with leaking, my advice is to let it go. The music is not suffering.
Cheers,
Mitch King
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CPW
Date: 2003-03-06 18:10
I think it detracts, esp. when you are close to the player.
I leak only when very tired.
Another detractor is vellopalatine incompetence........air leaks out the nose.
It can occur after surgical correction of snoring......so for now my s.o. sleeps with earplugs.
Methane? that is a hole nother story
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-06 19:40
I cannot think of any valid excuse for a competent player leaking air during routine playing. For me it is in a similar category to string players - mainly cellists - who heavy breathe, or even snort while playing.
It CAN be heard by any audience that is reasonably close, and probably excludes the player from any recording work, as happened to an otherwise very capable local player. (Information from recording personnel).
What is worst, it is thoroughly unpleasant for other musicians trying to blend.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-03-06 21:10
Gordon:
I couldn't disagree with you more. I've sat in a multitude of places in some very acoustically superior concert halls listening to players who I know leak air. I could not hear their leakage. I've conducted and played next to players that leak air, and blending has not been a problem.
Granted -- leakage CAN be heard in recitals and some chamber concerts, but in symphonic works I have yet to hear it.
Now, I'm not promoting leakage! It is not something that I suggest people try to emulate. It happens. And some VERY competent clarinetists do it.
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> I cannot think of any valid excuse for a competent player
> leaking air during routine playing.
There probably is no excuse. It may simply be a lapse in technique. I had the pleasure of seeing Maynard Ferguson's group last year, and every single musician on that stage, with the exception of the piano player, was using what has been accepted as "bad" technique. You know what, they sounded WONDERFUL! It's all about the sound/music!
Mitch King
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-06 22:07
I wrote "It CAN be heard by any audience that is reasonably close"
You wrote "I couldn't disagree with you more."
Then you wrote "leakage CAN be heard in recitals and some chamber concerts"
This seems to be TOTAL agreement.
To me, trying to blend with a player next to me who is hissing air, is as distracting as playing in close proximity to a constantly flushing toilet. The sound is very similar. I accept that SOME people have the skill to ignore it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ken
Date: 2003-03-06 23:50
I suddenly contracted Bell’s Palsy in 1986 and it knocked me out of playing for about a year. Fortunately, I re-gained 99% feeling and muscle control to the afflicted side of my face but was left with weakened corners on both sides of my mouth. It hasn't by any means negatively affected my playing career but I routinely expel small audible puffs of air ... usually at Forte + dynamic levels sforzandos or heavy accents. They also seem to come and go and have a mind of their own; it's personally annoying to me as it interferes with my engrained concept and application.
It has occasionally come through on some of my recordings but no one has ever commented about it unless I've specifically asked for an opinion. Overall, I'd say "excessive" air leakage should be corrected. A lot of it is caused by shallow breath support, extraneous emb. movement and all around "throat playing". All the clarinetists I've run into that do it are absolutely fine players, they've just developed a bad habit and/or their chops are dead tired from playing all day and night.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-03-07 02:18
True Confessions of a reformed hisser.
If violinists or pianists hissed it would ruin a performance. How are clarinetists different?
Players work for years on their sound, but yet ignore hissing, which is prominent, distracting, non-musical, and annoying. In a large orchestra, especially in halls with poor acoustics, the hissing can be lost in the mix. But in chamber music it can ruin otherwise brilliant performances.
For those that hiss, the pity is that nobody, not teachers, not fellow players, and not conductors, have ever asked them why they do it. This is a question that nobody will answer honestly "because I like the way it sounds". Given this realization, most players should then be able to find in themselves what it takes to stop hissing. The results will be most gratifying.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: RKM
Date: 2003-03-07 03:57
Thank you all. This was a most informative thread. The consensus seems to be that it's an undesirable habit that even some of the best have. I guess I'm a little surprised that it doesn't seem to get more discussion since it clearly annoys some to a great degree.
Post Edited (2003-03-07 04:59)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-07 10:26
Perhaps friends and associates of top players that are hisssers and heavy breathers are just too polite to tell them that it is not acceptable.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-03-07 11:49
So the knight replies to the queen, "If you hadn't mentioned it I would have thought it was the horse."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-03-07 16:26
No Gordon, I don't agree with you. I simply left out a qualifying phrase in my last post. I meant to state that leakage is undetectable in symphonic/orchestral performances. As I stated above, it is detectable in recitals and chamber music concerts. (I might have avoided this confusion had I not been accosted by students who actually wanted me to do my job. The nerve....)
In an effort of diplomacy, international harmony, and to avoiding this thread becoming a bar brawl like threads in the past, perhaps we should just agree to disagree. I've said all that I'm interested in saying, and chances are that you've got better things to do with your time also.
cheers,
Mitch King
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-07 21:32
To clarify, I agree, " that leakage is undetectable in symphonic/orchestral performances" except possibly for those in the audience who are particularly close, and for adjacent players. That is why I used the phrase "reasonably close".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Robert Small
Date: 2003-03-07 23:07
I've always considered leaking air at the corners of the mouth a bad habit. So I worked hard to overcome it. Now if I could just remember to not let my cheeks puff out.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-03-08 02:08
I've leaked air for as long as I remember. It was part of how I made my sound. My teacher has very recently changed this, and I think I sound better *without* the leaking. The tone is fuller, requires less air, and is more focussed. One thing I realise though, is that it is stopped by using the upper lip; something that is very often overlooked when teaching a student. The role of the upper lip has become just as important as the bottom to me in recent times, and is for much more than stopping leaking air! Now, I just have to build the upper muscles I never had into something as dependable as my lower lip. I'd recommend everyone look into the benefits of including the upper lip into their embouchoure, and for that matter, even trying once or twice, using double-lip.
The power of the upper lip is not to be messed with! LOL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-03-10 15:38
My apologies to the Webmaster if this was considered a "dead thread," but I have new information that I believe may vindicate my position.
For the last couple of days, as I drove around town, I have been listening to the second best recording of the Brahms clarinet quintet performed by Harold Wright. (the best recording being Shifrin with Emerson Qt.....in my opinion). In this recording one can hear Wright--a LEGEND among clarinetists--leak copious amounts of air, especially at louder dymanics and points of high drama. Does this mean that he was incompetent?
There is, most likely, no argument that Wright was an amazing clarinetist and musician. And I don't believe his status should be lessened because he occasionally leaked air. His recording remain are wonderful source for musicality and technique.
hasta luego,
Mitch King
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-11 10:37
No. Competent in many ways. But sadly lacking in one.
Thanks for the warning. I will not buy his recordings.
I'll bet the recording gurus would have edited it out if they could. It's as distracting as people coughing in a recording.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ken
Date: 2003-03-11 13:45
Reality check. There could have been no less than a dozen reasons why Mr. Wright was leaking air on that particular performance (and I'd like to hear it for myself). He could have been sick (or enduring any one of a thousand-and-one maladies) and still went to work that day; he was dead tired and couldn't sleep the night before; he could've blown out his chops from too much playing; a leak or swelled pad in his horn causing excess resistance; his reed started dying; he snapped a spring and had to use on-the-spot alternate fingerings to compensate ... and so on, and so on. I've got a dozen recordings live and studio of Harold Wright and he doesn't expel so much as a waft of air. It happens to the best of them. v/r Ken
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-03-11 13:49
Ralph Morgan has staighted that this kind of turbulence is actually necessary to hit High F# and above.
I've got 4 recordings of Buddy... can't make out any extraneous noise.
As for an instructor making the noise, I wonder how many hours of playing they have in before Richard sits down to a lesson?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: squeaker
Date: 2003-03-12 06:01
OK people - have you noticed a trend? All of the greats leak air! Who are we to critize - they are much better than we are, so that are allowed to leak as much as they want. It's really they same as squeaking or chirping, Benny Goodman, John Coltrane, Sonny Stitt, Stan Getz, Eric Dolphy and Charlie Parker all do it, but who the heck are you to say that any of them are less than amazing!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: claril
Date: 2005-05-31 14:31
I disagree with whoever said
"I'll bet the recording gurus would have edited it out if they could. It's as distracting as people coughing in a recording."
Because there are so many great things to music, if you can hit all of them smoothly with a sharp point with the exception of the little leakage of air i think you have accomplished great music. I thinking a little bit of leakge isn't even that disturbing it might be a surprise at first but I know if it not too extreme than it can add tothe pleasure.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-05-31 14:50
It DOES NOT MATTER if so-and-so famous player leaked air when they performed. Probably anyone who has played the clarinet has leaked air from time to time.
Just remember, any air escaping around the sides of the embouchure is air that does not contribute to making the sound.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sanya
Date: 2005-05-31 23:31
the kid who i've been playing clarinet alongside for a very, very long time now, suddenly decides to start blowing air. it made me so mad! i actually stopped playing in the middle of the rehearsal and said to him pointedly, "you are blowing air." and he's like, "i am NOT!" it annpyed me so much, oh lord. he's such a good player but the air thing is super annoying.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-05-31 23:56
sanya wrote:
> i actually stopped playing in the middle of the
> rehearsal and said to him pointedly, "you are blowing air."
That's rude.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda
Date: 2005-06-01 02:28
That may be rude but it wasn't in the middle of a performance. I've had people say things to me like that - as bull headed as I can be, sometimes that's what it took to make me take notice.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-06-01 02:38
Leaking air can't be heard at all in a symphonic performance like water on the reed can.
I personally dislike air leaks as they annoy me, but unless the mike is right on the player, it won't be heard. Gigliotti used to leak air like a hurricane was a blowin (on one of his chamber music recordings it is very VERY prominent).
Possibly as well the design of the ligature could accent the air leakage from it whistling through.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vicky
Date: 2005-06-02 06:24
haha, it's funny that David said that about Gigliotti. I started to leak air when I got a Gigliotti mouthpiece. . . interesting! :P
My teacher leaks air too. It does seem as though there is a "trend" going on with air leakage. I've realized that most air leakers do have amazing sounds. Their sound is being supported.
I had this little habbit for about a year. I ended up changing moutpieces, and it fixed most of my problem.
I don't think it's horrible to leak air, but it does distract sometimes.
hmmmmm.......
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-06-02 06:53
<<...most air leakers do have amazing sounds. Their sound is being supported. >>
That supporting air pressure is fine, but it should be matched by the appropriate support of the sides of the lips against the mouthpiece.
VERY distracting. As bad as a snorting cellist! Quite unnecessary.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-06-02 16:08
I sat 2nd to a clarinetist from Wales in an international orchestra for several years. She leaked air constantly, but had a good overall tone and was quite a good musician. However, I found it quite distracting from time to time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-02 21:15
Hello, new to posting on this list. I've heard so many people leak air, but I've heard many that don't. As for Harold Wright's recordings, I have a number of them throughout his career, and those that he leaks air in were made in the last year or so of his life. He was a consummate musician. Gigliotti, in some of his recordings in the orchestra, particularly the Beethoven cycle with Muti made in the late 80's, it is sometimes noticeable. My most recent teacher, Steven Barta, said it was acceptable only in FFF dynamics, and even then only a very little bit. There are still plenty of great players that leak, and plenty of them that don't... I'd probably figure out if it's helping you or hurting you.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-02 21:59
Just wondering.....is circular breathing a factor?
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
