 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-02-27 19:15
Many years ago, I read that down in New Orleans, trumpeters used to "dual it out" before live audiences. Does anything like this go on today in the clarinet world? Has Pete Fountain, Eddie Daniels or any of the other greats ever "competed' with another player or is this something that died out many years ago? I sense it must have been quite a crowd pleaser.
It would be interesting to know if this still occurs now and then.
Any comments?
Dan
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-02-27 19:57
"Cutting contests" between individuals and bands have been going on ever since the beginnings of jazz.
They seemed to reach their pinnacle when the center of jazz moved to Kansas City. Probably the most famous one being between Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young and Ben Webster (with a young Charlie Parker watching from the audience).
Around the country, even the bands would compete frequently. Benny Goodman would bring his band to the Savoy and was routinely outplayed by Chick Webb's band. Legend has it, that Chick Webb had 3 different books. Book 3 was the mild stuff, Book 2 was the hot stuff, and Book 1 pulled out all the stops.
Against Benny, he would use Book 3. He and his band didn't even work up a sweat...GBK
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-02-27 20:22
Hi Glenn, great response!! And I thought Benny was as the "top" of the heap during his day!!!
Thanks. Any other great stories out there?
Dan
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-02-27 20:32
Benny was a magnificent Clarinet player, but he was also a cheapskate of great renown. I understand he paid scale to everyone (same as Lawrence Welk). In those days, sidemen in traveling bands didn't have other sources of income, and some players didn't want to live like that -- particularly really good ones who could make more money elsewhere.
Regards,
John
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-02-27 20:41
In the early days of New Orleans the term for 2 bands competing against each other was a "bucking contest".
Often these were actually done out on the street as one band would march up to another band and the two would play face to face. The crowd would holler and bring drinks and food to the band they favored. The "losing" band would retreat in shame.
Kid Ory's band (w/Johnny Dodds) was the undisputed champ and other bands would lose all confidence when they approached...GBK
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-02-27 20:52
John & Glenn, great stories!!! Interesting comment about Lawrence Welk. I believe I read in Pete Fountain's history that Larry would seek out the best players and actually paid them quite well.
No truth to any of this?
Dan
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Author: Bryan
Date: 2003-02-27 20:54
>And I thought Benny was as the "top" of the heap during his day!!!
Before a highly publicized battle between the Goodman band and the Webb band, Gene Krupa got down on his knees and bowed down before Webb's drumset.
When the Chick Webb band was the 'house' band at the Savoy, they were practically unbeatable--this little four-foot hunchback could swing harder than anybody. I think only the Ellington band and Louis Armstrong's band actually beat them on their home turf. (I read once that when Armstrong played the Savoy with Fletcher Henderson's band the crowd pulled him off the stage and carried him around on their shoulders.)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-02-27 21:19
Hi Bryan, loved your story about Louis...and, I believe I have it correct, the great Louis Armstrong had to sleep in a "different" hotel from the one wherein he was the "featured" entertainer!!!
Thanks for your inspiring story.
Has this ever happened since?
Dan
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Author: Bryan
Date: 2003-02-28 02:45
Dan wrote:
> the great Louis Armstrong had to sleep in a
> "different" hotel from the one wherein he was the "featured"
> entertainer!!!
That sort of thing was common experience for black jazz musicians for many years. Most clubs, hotels, ballrooms, etc., were segregated, and many fine musicians were treated like second-class citizens. There's too many such stories; you can find them in music history books.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-02-28 03:50
Bryan, yes, I agree with you concerning the unfortunate fact that segregation was very common at that time.
What I was referring to when I said "Has this happened since?" was to the crowds enthusiastic reaction to a performer as to "carry him on their shoulders".
That must have been some incredible performance!!!
Dan
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Author: Bryan
Date: 2003-02-28 13:41
I don't know how often that happened. I read about in a book that had a section on Coleman Hawkins, who was in the same band. Hawkins had a competitive spirit, and was apparently resentful of the fact that the crowd responded so enthusiastically to Armstrong but not so much to him.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-02-28 16:29
Bryan -
It was summed up by Fats Waller in "Why Am I So Black and Blue." There's a great verson on a fairly recent CD, "Louis Armstrong plays Fats Waller."
Cutting contests long predate jazz. A famous organist came to town to challenge Bach, heard him playing and turned around and left. Mozart and Beethoven took on all comers. So did Simon Hermstedt (Spohr's clarinetist), who intimidated even Baermann.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2003-02-28 18:24
To me, the thought of some of the old time greats battling in a cutting session in some dark, smokey joint in the wee hours is THE definitive picture of what jazz is to me. If I could go back in time, I'd love to be in Kansas City during the years before WWII and see the likes of Prez, Bird and the other greats playing for no reason other than the pure joy of playing.....what a learning experience those sessions would have been!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-02-28 19:53
There was much of this in the "Jazz" PBS series [cant remember who produced it!!] not long back, and it was available on video. Will research!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-02-28 20:01
Asking the B [eautiful] W [ife] is always a good thing to do. She looked re: the newest Civil War ?analysis?, and said "Ken Burns". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-02-28 21:00
Of course, Ken Burns' JAZZ wasn't the most accurate, un-biased documentary ever made, either . . . :-\
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Author: Laurie
Date: 2003-02-28 21:23
<< Benny Goodman would bring his band to the Savoy and was routinely outplayed by Chick Webb's band >>
Is this where the song " Stomin at the Savoy" came from ?
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