 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-02-26 21:17
Rake me over the barbecue if this has been oft-discussed -- I searched and couldn’t find anything addressing it specifically. But it may have been buried somewhere. Point me to a thread if I missed it.
Is there any PRACTICAL difference between the standa rd R-13 and the Prestige? I know it’s got the extra Ab/Eb key. I know it’s supposedly made from grenadilla wood closer to the center ring. I know it’s got the little silver badge. Besides those items, is there any true fact that makes the Prestige any “better?”
I’ve had my heart set on a new Prestige, but would I be paying an extra grand for anything worthwhile??
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (02-26-03 23:04)
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 00:18
Well- the Prestige is unstained, and that usually means better wood. Of Course better wood might also mean better intonation and even-ness... etc.
The Prestige also has silver capped male tenons which will cut down on swelling ( which will make your clarinet stick together for a while)
The wood absorbs moisture after playing and sometimes it expands......
If you do not care about these things but will pay a little extra for that Eb key, you can get an RC( better clarinet than the R13) with an Eb key for a small add on in price.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 00:34
Bradley wrote:
> If you do not care about these things but will pay a little
> extra for that Eb key, you can get an RC( better clarinet than
> the R13) with an Eb key for a small add on in price.
Better ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif) ... you mean different.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-02-27 03:19
Right, I knew about the tenon caps. Is unstained wood still black? Mine is black, but not the jet black that a freshly-stained horn is.
I should've mentioned (which I have before, so bear with me for repeating myself) I play on a Prestige right now, but it's on loan to me; it's not truly mine. I'm hankering for my very own.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 03:22
LOL- sorry, my opinion kinda slipped in there.....
I do mean different, obviously because of the different bore design. I prefer the RC because it has the european bore vs. the american R13. I suggested it because you can get the Eb lever extra for a little added money. The RC also comes in a few different pitches which is convenient.
(Since Americans mostly use A=440 vs. the European A=442 so you can make your RC American lol)
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-02-27 04:10
I have seen prestiges and standard models both stained and unstained at different times. What tends to happen in instrument manufacture is that they make hundreds and hundreds of body joints. These are inspected because when working with wood there are unseen imperfections. The joints accepted for manufacture there are graded. The best of these are then kept for the higher grade (more expensive) instruments. In my experience these instruments are turned from wood that is seasones in billet form. They do not work from an actual log so the contention that they come from closer to the centre of the wood is a little far fetched. There is also a little more hand finishing. An example is on the flushbanded joints of prestige instruments over which more time is taken. If you remove a flushband you can often see hand tool marks. It is difficult to tell on Buffet's if there is any difference in the workmanship of the keywork. Possibly there is some difference in plating. There certainly is between the E13 and R13. When considering the extra cost you need to test instruments to find out whether the extra expenditure is worth it. A prestige will have a slightly better re-sale value. I believe that the extra Eb key can be fitted to any R13 as a special order all though the way things are going at Buffet I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 04:18
R13 unstained?!?!
I have never seen that, and always considered the R13 stain the of the darkest I have ever seen along with the stain they use on Eatons.
The Eb key on the RC I was talkin about is offered by Matthew's Music in the Netherlands as a regular model, so you dont have to special order it.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2003-02-27 06:08
Ralph,
If you are in the marrket for a new instrument and have ebough money to buy a prestige, then I suggest you put it on your trial list.
You might find the best sounding clarinet to be a regular R13.
Many pros play standard R13s some prefer the prestige.
What you absolutely have to do is try MORE THAN ONE horn and have somebody with good ears and experience help you out, even if that means paying him/her.
A good instrument will last you for as long as you don't get tired of it..So if the prestige you're looking at really does it for you, that 1000 bucks will be well spent.
Well, if you have Guy Deplus among your friends you can also ask him to select one for you and buy it without questions
Now for the technical part, as far as I know there is very little difference in specs between the 2 instruments. GoreTex pads, extra key Eb, unstained wood, metal rings for the tenons and supposedly more time spent building it.
I own an RC prestige Bb and a regular RC A, they just happened to be the best horn I could find at the time.
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-02-27 09:23
Bradley wrote: "I prefer the RC because it has the european bore"
European bore?? I don't think there is such a thing. Compare the bores of various European clarinets: Buffet, Wurlitzer, Eaton, Hammerschmidt, Patriciola etc. European pitch is also not only standard at A=442. It can range from 440- 444 depending where you are in Europe.
We may have the EU, and a single currency, but at least (thankfully) the clarinets are not all the same!
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-02-27 13:20
Liquorice,
Not only are you right about European orchestra's pitch (I play in one that aims at 440) but U.S. orchestras seem to have similar variation. The only time I've ever played with one they said they were trying for 442.
jez
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 15:12
O.K.
Well - you guys are right on that I guess (since I do live in America unfortunately), but I do know that most of my friends in England, France and Spain use RCs 442( that might be because most of them started on E11s). And btw- I said european bore because I read that Robert Caree used the R13 to base his RC off of and made it more suitable to the european market.
I was refering to Buffet- because after all this topic is about Buffets, so I didnt really try to compare them to the german and italian brands.........
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Author: William
Date: 2003-02-27 15:40
I recently auditioned an RC Buffet A and decided that I liked the traditional bore better. The RC produced a "tubby" sound that conlicts with my personal concept of "good" tonal quality and "presence." I much prefer the "vintage" R13 playing characteristics and recommend the Prestige models for the added Eb lever. Disclaimer--I do like the "brighter"side of tone quality spectum controversies as opposed to the "dark" side. Just my opinion--the RC models are preferred by many clarinetists and are generally excellant instruments. I just prefer the old vintage R13s.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 15:47
Cool
I like dark too, but not when it compromises the quality and ease of play. Thats why I prefer the Concerto over the Opus in the Leblanc line ( my favorite).
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-02-27 16:00
No, I can't say I count Guy Deplus as someone I know. One similar option, though, is one of IMS's Buffets selected by Greg Smith that includes Brannenizing and a Smith mouthpiece and matched Chadash barrel. Though I suspect the final price tag for a Prestige gets within driving distance of a new Guy Chadash clarinet.
Thanks to all for the help!µ
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 16:30
Bradley wrote:
> I like dark too, but not when it compromises the quality and
> ease of play. Thats why I prefer the Concerto over the Opus in
> the Leblanc line ( my favorite).
Could you qualify this for me? The Concerto and Opus are essentially the same clarinet (acoustically speaking).
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 16:36
Well- they are meant to be that way since the artisan makes them to be. In actuality, the Concerto is a little more free-blowing and its brighter than the Opus is.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 16:38
This is probably because they are made from slightly different wood.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 16:47
Bradley wrote:
> Well- they are meant to be that way since the artisan makes
> them to be. In actuality, the Concerto is a little more
> free-blowing and its brighter than the Opus is.
According to their designer they're not. They're twins.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-02-27 16:50
Re: the Leblanc clarinets, from their website:
The Concerto model is the acoustical twin of the Opus but with the traditional 17 key, 6 ring mechanism. Despite its identical acoustic design, the Concerto tends to produce a tone that is more flexible and lyrical than the Opus
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 16:59
Mark- I have spoken to the clarinet specialist at Leblanc headquarters many times about this, and he has confirmed that the artisan just cant help it having a slightly different sound. If they were truly twins, many professionals would just buy the Opus instead of the Concerto, but actually alot of pros, like Eddie Daniels prefer the Concerto. The Concerto isnt as direct as the Opus and has a brighter sound in colour. The Opus projects more and has a darker, more orchestral sound.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-02-27 17:03
To return to the Prestige issue, Buffet (Francois Klok) carefully says that the 'Prestige Wood' is not 'better' but is denser. And he says that this affects the response, as felt by the player. 'Response' is something to do with a delay before a note sounds. I don't remember his exact words, and this is very subtle stuff. I have never heard this aspect discussed here in the forum or list, but it seems like it might have something to do with the other impossible to define concepts, like darkness, or like loving a particular horn at first playing.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-02-27 17:10
Two question about the Leblanc instruments:
Is it absolutely clear that they use the same wood for the Opus and Concerto?
Does Leblanc or anyone have an explanation for different keywork affecting the 'flexible and lyrical' quality? That is their own marketing language, right?
I'm bemused by the companies making the different models and then being unwilling or unable to describe clearly what the intention of them was.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 17:39
lol
They dont use the same wood for the two models.
Their intention was to create 2 artist models, 1 with the Eb and all silver male tenons, and the other without the extra key, and only 1 silver tenon. There is an explanation for why they produce different sounds and characteristics though, I will call my friend at Leblanc and ask him when I get a chance, because I cant remember fully and I dont want to mis-quote him.
Their marketing with the 2 models has diversified into 2 different models as oppose to the original 1 model being the upgrade from the other. This is probably because they liked the differences that resulted almost by accident I guess while experimenting. Now they have gone on to further define the 2 artist models by getting Larry Combs to design a slightly darker clarinet to follow the Opus of course I'm talking about the Opus II with its superb mechanism. The Concerto has been followed by the Concerto II which was designed by Eddie Daniels, a traditionally bright player , to make it have a brighter sound and again better mechanism. My friend at Leblanc has told me they are probably going to discontinue the original Opus and Concerto, so the two top end clarinet "families" will be separatye, much like Buffet's Festival and Elite.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 18:08
Ed wrote:
> Re: the Leblanc clarinets, from their website:
According to the guy who designed both - this is fluffery.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 18:14
Bradley wrote:
> Mark- I have spoken to the clarinet specialist at Leblanc
> headquarters many times about this, and he has confirmed that
> the artisan just cant help it having a slightly different
> sound.
What "artisan"? The guys who assemble both? The persons at the end of the line who adjust them? They don't have a dedicated "Opus" person and a "Concerto" person ... they have people who regulate them as they come in, and I would hope (and I truly believe) they give both models - indeed all their professional models - identical care.
> If they were truly twins, many professionals would just
> buy the Opus instead of the Concerto, but actually alot of
> pros, like Eddie Daniels prefer the Concerto.
Or the Concerto instead of the Opus, since the Concerto is significantly cheaper.
As I said before, the clarinets are identical according to the guy that did the design. He lieterally recommended that people buy whichever one caught their fancy - the premium on the Opus was for the aesthetics only. There's no difference besides the wood (one is stained, one is unstained).
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 18:46
I was refering to the the guy who designed them, when I said artisan.
When I play one or the other, like all the professionals I have talked to, I notice a definite difference. Thats why all their artists, who most likely get the clarinets free, and do not need to worry about price, have chosen one or the other - because of the very change in tone colour I was talking about and the projection factor.
Obviously the price difference is because of the add-ons the Opus has over the Concerto ( unstained wood, capped tenons, Eb key, better mouthpiece). I said most would buy the Concerto not talking pricewise, because most who can buy either decide to get the Concerto because they like its qualities that differ from the Opus. If they were the same, people would just buy the Opus for the extras.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 19:08
Bradley wrote:
> When I play one or the other, like all the professionals I have
> talked to, I notice a definite difference.
Bradley,
Talk to Tom Ridenaur someday. He's the "artisan" (designer) and a professional. He thinks they're essentially the same.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 19:19
Mark- I have not talked to him, but I have talked to a few people at Leblanc and they disagree with that.
I really dont see the point in talking to him though unless it is on another matter. I find the difference, all the clarinetists I look up to find the difference, and so whether or not the "artisan" ( i use that title because thats what a clarinet tester used when talkin to me) finds a difference, is really irrelevant.
It seems like you are trying to attack me and prove me wrong, when I only stated an opinion ( a very very popular opinion by no co-incedence at all) .
How about you- have you personally found a difference or do you just go off what he says?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-02-27 19:22
Mark says:
"According to the guy who designed both - this is fluffery."
I agree, it is just marketing crap. Just like the one they market as having a more "youthful" tone. I remember years ago there was a Leblanc clarinet that Drucker was doing an ad for. He stated that this was a fine instrument and that people would be playing this it. He never said that he played it or would play it. At some point, I met one of their regional sales guys and told him that this was a big joke to many clarinetists. I think he was insulted.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-27 20:39
Bradley wrote:
> It seems like you are trying to attack me and prove me wrong,
> when I only stated an opinion ( a very very popular opinion by
> no co-incedence at all) .
Not an attack, Bradley, but asking you where and how you formed your opinion. If the guy who designed and tested the clarinets a number of years back tells me there's essentially no difference between them, and then his replacement tells me exactly the same thing, then yes, their statements hold considerably more weight than anyone elses.
> How about you- have you personally found a difference or do you
> just go off what he says?
I personally have played both, and with my eyes closed couldn't tell you which is which. I've been with Eddie Daniels when he played both, and heard no difference (but Eddie likes his personal Concerto since it's been worked on to his specs). I'm sure Larry Combs' Opus has been tweaked to his satisfaction.
However, as I stated above, Tom's word holds more weight to me than anyone elses when it comes to the original Concerto and Opus. If I heard a difference then I'd have to then go and see if it was within the norm of differences between clarinets.
Sometimes people think that spending more money is equal to getting something better. The world of advertising is predicated on this concept. But it doesn't always mean that it's true.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-02-27 22:14
Bradley wrote: "...made it more suitable to the european market"
I find that a terrible over-simplification. My whole point is that the "European market" is very diverse. I live in Switzerland, and amongst professionals who play Buffet here, RC, R13, Prestige, Festival and Vintage are all common. And then there are others who play Rossi and Wurlitzer. And that's just in little Switzerland. There is no such thing as a "European bore"!
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-02-27 23:13
Well Mark- I was really talking about the developments they have made with the Opus and Concerto to bring out these new models. Sorry for attacking you and saying you try it yourself- I was getting frustrated and I really didnt understand how you could'nt notice a difference.
I do feel that you were trying to prove me wrong though, and I have formed this opinion by playing a couple of each model. I guess since clarinets differ, that might have been a factor, but I know what I heard and thats what I will trust.
And to Liquorice- that is what I read about the RC from Buffet in a catalog. Of Course I am just following what that says because I dont live in Switzerland or anywhere else in europe- on this topic I am going off what my friends say.
I do like talking about clarinets and other stuff like this, so if you both want to email me and carry this on- my email address is eurodesign75@hotmail.com.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-28 00:17
Bradley wrote:
> Well Mark- I was really talking about the developments they
> have made with the Opus and Concerto to bring out these new
> models.
I'm not even sure about the new model, since I just received the Leblanc brocure that says again that the new Concerto II is an acoustical twin of the old Concerto, but with significantly redesigned keys.
> Sorry for attacking you and saying you try it yourself-
> I was getting frustrated and I really didnt understand how you
> could'nt notice a difference.
You didn't "attack" me; however, I believe that if you subject yourself to having a friend play 5 Opus clarinets and 5 Concerto clarinets 5 times while you're blindfolded you'll be amazed at the ... lack ... of difference.
Sometimes we all hear what we want to hear. I could ply you with anecdotes from my stint as an acoustic engineer (ASW platforms) in the USN ... but I'll refrain
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Author: William
Date: 2003-03-01 22:40
When I selected my set of Concerto clarinets at Leblancs Kenosha factory, Tom Ridenour told me that with "what I know about these clarinets, I'd buy the Sonata, save a lot of money and enjoy that great LeBlanc key action." He told me that the Opus, Concerto and Sonata were accoustically the same instruments--just the "bells and whistles" making the differences in price. The more expensive clarinets may be worked on more carefully, but--also according to Tom--they "all come from the same woodpile."
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Author: PJ
Date: 2003-03-02 02:58
Back to the Prestige issue (which I think has been strayed from quite a bit), I would like to ad that when I auditioned my current set of R13s, I tried the R13, Prestige, RC and Elite as well as some of the Leblancs and some others (too many models to mention actually) and found that the regular R13 that I ended up buying were better for me than any I tried. However, the gentleman that was with me at the time, played the same group and ended up picking the RC over any others. When the two of us played together, you couldn't tell a difference. As for my R13s, I've had this set for right at 10 years and (knock on wood) have yet to have one problem as for cracking, swelling, etc. Additionally, I find that I can't get used to having the extra key as I've played without it so long that I find away to manage fingerings...however others feel differently. But, we're still clarinetists...IMAGINE THAT! Just think of all of the wind ensembles with as many clarinets that in them and the entire section sounds like one horn. (Rare, but it happens) Do you think they all play on the exact same set-up? Not usually.
What I'm trying to say here is that it all depends on your physical make-up (i.e. oral cavity, etc.) and YOUR preference in projection, tone color, brightness, darkness...however you want to describe it...so go on how the horn feels and sounds over how the horn is made. If you like the Eatons, go with the Eatons, if the regular R13 is better, then go with them (or whatever brand/model you find to suit YOU best). However, you have to get out there and try as many as you can to find the one that is right for you. Isn't this the reason so many companies began in the first place? Not everyone is going to like the exact same brand or model or we would all be playing the same horn.
Enjoy your individuality!
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