 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Leonard A
Date: 2003-02-21 18:21
I'm wondering if anyone has played on a plastic clarinet (student or otherwise) and felt that the tone was comparable to wood. If so, which one? I have a Vito Resotone clarinet which I think sounds pretty good, but I have never played on wood. Wondering when I'll want to move up. Part of it seems to be a status thing--that wood is the only "real" clarinet and all good players play wood. The problem with wood is that it seems to be so sensitive to temperative, cracking etc., and the one thing you can say for plastic is that it's low maintenance.
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Author: Frank
Date: 2003-02-21 19:23
I think it's a matter of subtleties and nuance. If I was in a recording studio, or featured in an orchestral or chamber setting, I'd want my wooden clarinet. If I was at an Octoberfest standing between the tuba and the bar, or in a Dixieland band, I'd use my plastic. I know I'm overprotective , but I hate playing my wooden clarinet outside. For someone learning the instrument, I would think a good plastic clarinet will easily take you to the level where the nuances of sound and feel become important enough to make the purchase of a new clarinet necessary
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-21 19:51
Frankly, I've never heard a plastic clarinet play with as good a sound, intonation, etc., as a good, wood model. Of course, I've heard a really good, plastic clarinet that sounded much better than some really cheap wood models I've encountered.
Still, many old-time players (and present) professionals were known to use and/or have used hard rubber instruments with every bit the same success as they, and others, used wood instruments at other times.
I recently posted about a plastic Selmer Signet clarinet I had repaired for my grandson in NC. When I first bought it, it only cost me $40.00. It was so cheap that I didn't even bother trying it out at the time.
He had it for more than a year and my son recently sent it to me because it quit playing. When I got it back from the tech and tried it out, it left me speechless, because it sounded so good and was so incredibly in tune, etc. Of course, I used a good mouthpiece and reed combination to try it.
Pleasant surprises can be found in many unlikely places, at times.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-02-21 21:50
Many of us have had the same pleasant surprises from a well-repaired plastic! I've always felt that 50% of tone quality/intonation is due to the player, 40% is due to mp/reed combo, with the rest due to horn composition. Its all subject to player-attitude as well, IMHO. Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-02-22 17:09
Bob: it's because their vocal cords are not plastic.
I like my V-40. It may not be thr best Clarinet on Earth; but for many purposes, I think it is. It plays better than most I've tried. MOO, YMMV, etc. It would be a minor tragedy to damage a superior-quality wood instrument in an inappropriate environment, and the V-40 plays just fine, thanks. It won't crack unless I bust it over somebody's head, and if it goes away, there are plenty out there at reasonable prices.
Regards,
John
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Author: Signe
Date: 2003-02-23 01:29
I like student Buffets. They have a good feel, contrary to the Selmers, which are really like the old Bundys. The keys on those are set higher than the holes, making you have to dig inside the keys to cover the holes--hard for new players to manipulate.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-23 09:45
Leonard A wrote "The problem with wood is that it seems to be so sensitive to temperative...."
Wood may be sensitive to humidity, but has high temperature stability compared to plastics, which expand with temperature significantly enough for precisely adjusted pivots to be sloppy in warm weather or jam in cold weather.
This is quite a problem with plastic bass clarinets, because of the large length of some keys, and hence the amount of expansion/contraction of the plastic (relative to the metal) over this distance.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-02-24 18:09
Gordon said:
"Wood may be sensitive to humidity, but has high temperature stability compared to plastics, which expand with temperature significantly enough for precisely adjusted pivots to be sloppy in warm weather or jam in cold weather. "
I play a Vito V40 outdoors and have gotten a lot of compliments on my sound with it. Others have played it and expressed amazement.
At an outdoor Christmas concert last year the temperature fell below 40F and my LH pinky C lever began to bind. After a few more minutes, the lever stuck and I had to play all C's right-handed. Loosening the pivot screws didn't help.
The next day the clarinet was fine (indoors) and there was actually too much play in the lever on its pivot screws.
I put that joint in the refrigerator and, sure enough, ten minutes later the joint had shrunk to the point that the C lever was binding between its posts again.
Now I have to choose among my Silver King, a disposable wood clarinet, and staying home on nights that cold. It's almost a no-brainer.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-02-24 19:04
There is another way that plastic may sound and behave differently from wood, according to Arthur Benade.
See http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/1999/04/000333.txt
To be very brief, the corners of the tone holes where they pierce the bore are usually sharper on plastic (and metal) clarinets than on wood. This causes an early onset of turbulence as you play louder, which has detrimental effects clearly explained in Benade's book (See the link, beginning in paragraph six.)
Benade asserts, as do some in-the-know repairmen, that careful rounding of these corners makes a noticeable improvement.
I would like to attempt rounding the tone holes on my Vito V40.
Will anyone suggest how to make a tool to accomplish this?
Thanks.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-02-24 19:54
The V40 already has undercut tone holes. Just how rounded the edges are, I don't know. Also, any undercutting of tone holes will change the pitch relationship between the chalumeau and clarion registers, so it isn't a project to be taken on casually.
With regard to shrinkage in the lower joint in cold conditions, I've never suffered a problem with mine in that regard. That of course doesn't mean it can't happen. The business end of the left-hand F/C key is not a precision matter. Hence, a good technician should be able to get your problem squared away by shortening the rod ever so slightly and using a different (longer) pivot screw. Any rattling could be corrected by using nylon washers.
It would take a bigger problem than that to cause me to give up on the V40.
Regards,
John
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-24 20:24
The business end of the left hand F/C key is not a precision area, although precision makes it quieter.
However the same will be happening to the E/B (right hand) key. The precision of the mounting of this key IS important, otherwise the left hand option for B is likely to be unresponsive compared with the right hand option.
I suggest that if the change from a warm room to close to sub 40F does not jam this key, then it must have been pretty sloppy at room temp.
One solution is to use a pivot system of cylindrical pivot screws going into cylindrical holes, as is used on some instumetns. At least then the sloppiness is only axial, not lateral. Axial sloppiness is probably slightly rough on pads and seating, and contributes a lot to noisy mechanism, but it is lateral sloppiness (only occurring with pointed screws) that is the killer of precise linkage.
BTW, be a little cautious with nylon washers. Nylon expands when it absorbs moisture.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-24 20:28
As John suggests, if modifications are made so that the jamming between the POSTS no longer occurrs, then you can probably make adjustments with the pivot screws to suit the temperature you are playing in. If this means a pivot screw is loose in its post, then use Loctite 222 to make it secure.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-02-27 01:46
JMcAulay posted last week, re his V-40: "...if it goes away, there are plenty out there at reasonable prices."
Where was everybody yesterday? I won a V-40 through eBay from a Pawn Shop in Mississippi for $48.30. Working or not, that's very few bux. If it *does* play, it's a spare. If it doesn't play, it will. 
Regards,
John
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-02-27 12:20
So.....even pawnshops can be a source of a good deal. Another "rule" broken.
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-02-27 13:56
I believe the problem is that no-one has made a plastic instrument with the same care and craftsmanship devoted to the professional quality wooden ones.
I used to play on a B&H Imperial E flat made of ebonite and found it in no way compromised in quality compared to the wooden equivalent. If hard rubber can make a fine instrument, why not a more modern plastic?
Surely this has already been achieved (more or less) with the Buffet 'Greenline' I wonder what the difference would be if the wood content of that was replaced by any other material of similar density.
jez
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Author: William
Date: 2003-02-27 15:00
When I was in highschool 1955-1959), I sat first chair in the highschool band, auditioned for second chair in an all-state band sponsered by the University of Wisconsin, won three consecutive solo State First Division ratings (two fron Hymie Voxman), studied privately, joined the Musicians Union and played in a Madison, WI "adults only" band. I did all of this playing a Selmer Bundy Resonite clarinet which my parents (sadly) traded in when they purchased me ( then college bound) a new Selmer CT pro level instrument clarinet. When I first assembled the new clarinet to practice for the first time at home, my Mom--listening from another room--said she could "hear the difference." Years later, after I traded the CT for my Buffet R13, I realized the she did not say wheither "the difference" was better or worse. I loved that Bundy clarinet and it is still the clarinet that I think I had the most fun with. My "secrete weapon" was the mouthpiece that I used (and still have)--a Selmer HS*. And that, plus the clarinetists own concept of "good" clarinet sound, is what is most critcal to a clarinetists tone quality. There really is no reason why a plastic clarinet--if built to the same specifications as any pro level wood clarinet--should not sound as good as wood and play just as well (and if the clarinetists inner ears are "in tune" with what is "good").
But, for now, I would have to recommend wood versus plastic, simply because the wood clarinets quality control during manufacture is more strictly monitered. For the "current best" of both wood and synthetic world's--and if you have the bucks--you might try a Buffet Greenline model clarinet, made with a composite wood chip mixture which essentially prevents weather related damages (as the no-grain composite will not crack as a result of rapid temperature changes). And, they are built to "pro level" specifications.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-02-27 15:25
I expect there are quite a number of very-good pro/semipro-quality HR/plastic soprano cls "out there", just waiting to be discovered and given some hours of TLC like I try to do. In particular Dave S and Jim Lande, and I'm sure a number of others, have established quite a reputation in making "silk purses" out of ill-preconcieved "junkers". I've just had that pleasant experience with an old [1925?] HR Pedler alto cl, [wish I knew who actually made it!], which now plays as well as my Selmer-Paris [1980's] A C, and has DRKeying, for superior mid-staff tonality/response. I have a HR Linton [remember that family?] bass [D S says it likely is a Malerne] to which I'd like to add DRKeying. Also, a Pedler wood bass [with DRK!] I'll work on and up next. I suspect that more quality construction was given to the "big" reeds and Eb sops, perhaps, than to the common Bb sops. Just wanted to post re: experience and some success. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: PJ
Date: 2003-02-28 02:23
In response to the undercutting statments, I would like to point those interested in MINOR adjustments of this nature to Clark Fobes webiste to take a look at his article concerning this topic.
I stress MINOR and also that this should only be attempted by an experienced technician. This article is only to shed a little light on the effects of process and adjustment the undercutting.
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2003-02-28 03:38
William, I found your comments really interesting. Now I like my Vito Resotone even more.
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Author: clarinetdaddy
Date: 2003-02-28 04:24
Hello All, Last year or two years ago at the Clarifest 2001 (?) in New Orleans. I tried many of the clarinet brands in the vendoe area and found that one of the best sounding was the Buffet "Greenline" This maybe the answer to an outside good sounding clarinet that you don't have to worry about cracking or etc.. But the "Greenline"'s almost cost as much as the R13. Not cheap!!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-28 11:56
clarinetdaddy wrote:
> But the "Greenline"'s almost cost as much as the R13.
> Not cheap!!
The Greenline is an R13!
Post Edited (02-28-03 12:57)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-02-28 12:50
Ray wrote:
>Will anyone suggest how to make a tool to accomplish this?>
I believe that Ferree's has the tool should you want to experiment.....but JMc has pointed out that yours is already undercut. Even if you don't do it get the catalog as the procedure is interesting.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-02-28 21:12
Thanks, Bob. I have seen the undercutting tools in Ferree's catalog.
But what I actually want to do is to round the sharp edges of the tone holes, both undercut and not undercut. I can see that the edges are quite sharp, so I assume that relieving those sharp edges will reduce the turbulence. Will that make an audible difference in intonation? That's what I hope to find out.
I agree with other posters that undercutting is something that requires more understanding and experience than I have or will ever get.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-03-01 10:55
Ray.
At the 'south' end of the 'windway' of a recorder, there is a chamfer, top and bottom. The included angle of these chamfers is critical in order to maintain a relatively non-turbulent airstream across to the 'fipple'.
What may be relevant is that as far as I know, FLAT chamfer faces are more successful than ones with rounded edges. On the other hand, this is a somewhat different situation (no change in air direction) and may not be relevant.
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