 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-02-20 20:15
A recent purchase of a Chedeville/Lelandais white symphony mouthpiece has gotten me curious. I'm wondering about other white mouthpieces--like some of you have in your collections. A jazz player I know plays an old white mpc that doesn't have a brand name on it. He doesn't remember where he got it, but it really sounds nice. The one I got sounds nice and creamy, but is a bit harder to play than my favorite Greg Smith. It does great klezmer and dixie stuff. When did these fall out of fashion--or are there new makers?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-02-20 22:05
Brenda -
I went to Everett Matson's studio shortly before he died, to have a bass mouthpiece worked on. He showed me a lot of stuff, including the mouthpieces used by his teacher, Ralph Lindemann, who was principal in Chicago. Lindemann played Oehler instruments with a narrow mouthpiece and string ligature. One of these mouthpieces was black, another was brown and a third was fluorescent yellow.
I think Brian Ackerman (whose site seems to be offline at the moment) makes mouthpieces in many colors, and even Vandoren offers mouthpieces in a brown/black swirl pattern.
It's my impression that white mouthpieces were popular in the 1940s and 50s among jazz players, such as Woody Herman. I've also seen a picture of Charlie Parker using a white mouthpiece. Like you, I've never seen a "legit" player using anything but black, though Matson swore Lindemann used the yellow one in Chicago. It shouldn't make any difference. The black color comes from mixing lamp-black into the rubber.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-02-20 22:07
Brenda, I don't know for sure but it's possible that these were made from celluloid which is no longer a popular plastic. White color in "bakelite" is either(I forget) not possible or difficult due to the use of "regrind".
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-02-20 22:25
In my arenal of mouthpieces (don't you just love that term?) I, like many others, have one of the white Brilhart Tonalin alto sax mouthpieces (complete with serial number). It is the same kind that Charlie Parker used when he performed on his Conn 6m alto saxophone.
No matter how often I use it, I still can't play <i>Anthropology</i> at quarter note = 300...GBK
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-02-20 22:45
Until a year ago, I had a white "Britone" (UK) alto sax mpc. It had a black toothguard inlay. Palo Tung in New Orleans, who worked on my mid-50s Dolnet, was quite interested in it and he bought it from me (I had no luck with it). Anyone heard of this brand?
Henry
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Author: Hank
Date: 2003-02-20 23:26
GBK,
I too have a Brillhart alto MP just as you described in my arsenel. When I play that against a 7 Meyer though, the Meyer wins hands down. I got the MP in the 1950s in response to the Bird's influence and a lot of hot players at the time used them.
When I got to college though, I immediatly switched to a more traditional Selmer Soloist C* and and E as well for jazz. I do remember a master class with Rascher though when I was at Interlochen when I showed up with a metal Otto Link MP on my tenor. The master had some non-flattering words for my setup. As I recall, he used the term "locomotive mouthpiece." I quickly got the Selmer Soloist C* out of my case.
Brenda, there was a Runyon sax mouthpiece (I think maybe still available) that was a clear, red plastic. However, I can't remember seeing anyone using a white clarinet MP though. Maybe hang on to the MP for historical reasons; I've got several of that category as do probably most of us more senior players.
HRL
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-02-21 01:17
Hank speaks of "...a Runyon sax mouthpiece (I think maybe still available) that was a clear, red plastic."
I have, and play with extreme rarity, a Runyon Clarinet MP marked Runyon, The Spoiler, and the number 4. It is made of a clear red plastic. I might actually play it more except for its somewhat absurd-looking ligature, which is almost the only one that will fit it (smaller than most) other than Velcro or string. It also has the distinction of having been supplied with an internal baffle, which fortunately is easily removed. The baffle, made of metal and a composition material, closes off part of the beak and interferes with smooth air flow in the upper throat of the MP. The term seems appropriate, as its purpose is certainly baffling to me. I would appreciate any comment as to why using the baffle might make any sense. Or perhaps is my skill simply too limited to take advantage of whatever arcane benefit may accrue to the user?
Although I have long admired Arnold Brilhart, I never played a white "Tonalin" MP.
Regards,
Joh
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Author: Cindy
Date: 2003-02-21 04:53
Ken Shaw said "I've never seen a "legit" player using anything but black" Am I mistaken in the recollection that Benny Goodman played a white mouthpiece? I was just wondering, because my grandfather gave me his white jazz mouthpiece (which I adore as long as I have a weak reed on it) and said it was like the one Benny GOodman played on. Was his mouthpiece white?
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Author: Bazzer The Jazzer
Date: 2003-02-21 11:58
I used to have a 'ROC' white mouthpiece I used om my 'C' clarinet, I was talking to another clarinet player called Alex Revell who played for the early Chris Barber band, I asked about his white mouthpiece, it was a 'ROC' he told me that Buddy DeFranco used them...that's it.
Barrie
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-02-21 13:16
I'll have to agree that it is mostly jazz players that I've seen use the white set-up. The one I have is probably the best I've ever tried for "bent" tones and slurs. You can actually bend the tone a half step without any difficulty whatsoever.
I agree that I should probably hang onto it.
As to Benny Goodman, I don't recall a photo of him with a white mouthpiece, but wouldn't be surprised if he didn't try one from time to time--especially if they were being used by other jazz players of the era.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-02-21 13:22
Many of the white mouthpieces are cheap molded acrylic plastic, and often have poor interior shaping and/or finishes. Some of the white ones (e.g. Maccaferri) are nylon, which has poor dimensional stability. In general, hard rubber mouthpieces are black and are a better choice, material-wise.
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Author: brenda siewert
Date: 2003-02-21 15:40
Yes, I agree. I would never use a white one as my main mouthpiece. The black ones do seem better. I've tried the two-tone Vandorens and Charles Bays and have seen a difference between the black and two-tone as well.
Still love my wood best.
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2003-02-21 17:22
I have a white mouthpiece that a jazz player gave to me. It is called Arbex and a no. 5. It is really a great mouthpiece. I have used it so much. I switch back and forth to a Vandoren and then the mouthpiece that came with clarinet and then I go back to the white one. Arbex still is in business, still selling mouthpieces. I think they are located in LA. Not real sure about that location though. I have on order now a Borbeck, this is because the one I had got investigated by the terrier when I wasn't looking. Mr. Borbeck said on the phone, "It must have been a poodle. It's always the poodles that get them." The day I originally tried the Borbeck I had tried about five or six other mouthpieces and it was outstanding. Don't we love our accessories?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-02-21 17:58
I recall white mps, other's and mine, more sax than cl, Brilharts, probably a fairly clear plastic with white pigment added. Went out with high-button shoes [IMHO] in the "cool jazz" 50-60's. Some were good!, will look in my repairer-friend's junk box to see if any have survived. Don
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Author: Ted
Date: 2003-02-21 17:59
Funny you bring this up. The other day going through a really old clarinet case I found a Brillhart white mpc with a five or six digit serial number. It's a #3 so it's probably closed facing, but it reminded me of all the old pictures of guys playing in big bands in the 30's and 40's. I wonder if this is worth anything as a collectable? Anybody know? - Ted
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Author: Hans
Date: 2003-02-21 21:47
I have two - one for clarinet (can't remember where I got it), and one for tenor sax which I remember buying about 40 years ago when they were readily available.
Thanks for reminding me; I haven't tried them for a while and maybe they have improved with age.
Hans
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-02-21 22:19
Brenda, you asked about B G. I looked in my book [many pics]. No white mps, one looked like glass, I recall a record cover with glass, several cls obviously were Selmers, Ah nostalgia! Don
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Author: DougR
Date: 2003-02-22 00:25
I seem to remember an old picture (c. 1940s) of Tony Scott playing a clarinet with a white mouthpiece. No idea who made it, of course.
Hey, Ted, there IS a market for Brilhart serial numbered sax mouthpieces, white and black. Check eBay. I'd assume so for clarinets as well, though I haven't seen them mentioned on THIS board as a desired item.
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-02-22 12:25
I think I'm a "legit" player and I frequently use my yellow
Ackerman copy.
The only problem it provides is choice of ligature, whether to use the gold Oleg which complements it so well, or something minimal to let it's colour show through for itself.
jez
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-02-22 13:28
David S. wrote:
<cheap molded acrylic plastic>
I respect your technical expertise but wonder why you would seem to infer that acrylic is a cheap plastic.
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Author: brenda siewert
Date: 2003-02-22 15:09
As to the ligature issue that Jez brought up--I found my BG Super Revelation didn't work at all with the Lelandais White Symphony, but my Ligaphone worked very well.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2003-02-22 17:12
Conn had a white "Precision" mouthpiece made for them also. They are great mouthpieces for playing the older Conn saxes and clarinets.
jbutler
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-02-23 08:48
If BG had a white mouthpiece, it was probably a Brilhart "Tonalin." They were fairly popular. As I recall, they had a pretty wide tip opening with a short facing--probably optimal for working with softer reeds. Projection was also pretty strong. I got one with my first Alto Sax, and it was pretty in-your-face. I think that a Portnoy can get a lot of the same effect on clarinet with a prettier sound, and less degredation of the player's 'legit' capability.
Allen Cole
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2003-02-24 01:57
for the record the white brillhart clarinet mpc is a terrific jazz mpc.artie shaw woody herman and probably even benny all used one at some time. those red runyon clarinet mpcs mentioned above are also great jazz mpcs.and dont cost much $ .the stock lig is indeed poor but a lubyen plastic lig fits like a glove and im proves preformance. dave speg. dosnt like the material but the one he refaced for me sounds fine indeed!
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