 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2003-02-15 02:38
Any suggestions as to where a good place to buy cigarette papers (preferably without glue) is?
Any particular brands to suggest?
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-02-15 03:47
Yup, Zonda. And these can be used over and over again until they finally wear out completely. They absorb moisture fast and dry in no time, much better than those perm papers. I double mine to make them stronger for reaching under remote keys.
If you buy Zonda Classico reeds, a package of papers arrives in each box.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-02-15 13:32
I use stock Melitta coffee filters, cut into strips.
These are most definitely NOT reusable... but when I bought my last set of cigarette rolling paper the cost was outrageous. And I came out smelling like the OTB waiting room *uhrk*
You can find the larger Melitta filters for around $1.00 at the grocery store...
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-02-15 14:26
Or you can buy the ones with glue at a tobacco store and cut off the glue area
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2003-02-15 14:58
You can purchase the paper rectangles used for perms. Most drug stores and any store like Target, K-mart, Wal-mart...will have them.
These are larger than cigarette paper and are more durable.
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Author: tim
Date: 2003-02-15 16:03
I have recentely ( 3 weeks now)started playing after a 30 year "break" I played in the Highschool band in 1973. I carried papers in my clarinet case. I had no idea that they had anything to do with the clarinet.
Seriously, I have learned alot from this bullentin board in the three short weeks that I have been reading it. And, of course, it has been a inspiration to me as I struggle to find some sort of the tone that I seem to remember that my clarinet is capable of producing.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-02-15 16:14
The perm end papers/end wraps aren't incredibly durable, but they do the job, and you can get a box of 1000 for around $3, so it's a good deal! Plus, they fit nicely in my reed guard (Pro Tec).
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-02-15 16:24
As indicated in a previous thread, I have used cigarette paper to fill the gap between the wood and the metal to tighten loose socket rings. This thread suggests that many are using it for other clarinet-related purposes. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks.
Henry
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-02-15 17:03
I use it to get water out of a tone hole while playing (which, thank goodness, doesn't happen that often!) - just put the paper under the pad, push the pad down, and slide the paper out.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-15 19:40
People: "Pad papers" are sold at almost every music shop that handles woodwinds and some that do not. They have been around almost ever since I can remember, which is a long time.
It's no big deal and, frankly, if you can't afford something as basic as pad papers, as cheap as they are, you might want to think about whether you really want to play an instrument requiring their use, or not.
Nothing personal, but pads need maintenance. I buy all my pad papers at Sam Ash stores. They come bound, between two "covers," like miniature books.
Cigarette papers fall apart easier than actual pad papers and can leave residue in the tone holes, while cofee filters do leave way too much residue behind. Perm papers are better, but not as good as real pad papers. I have never re-used pad papers anyway.
I can properly do an entire clarinet with one, then throw it away. When I've used more than one clarinet at one time, I've done the one I least used first, then the other one with the same paper, then thrown it away. Saxophones are, often, a somewhat different story.
Henry,
Basically, when some pads become too wet, they can leave much moisture behind in a narrow tone hole and make the instrument "gargle" (which can happen otherwise, as well) and/or if moisture is allowed to dry on the pad, it can become sticky and, especially in the case of articulated keys, make the key not respond to your fingering of a note.
The second example is actually more prevelent than the first.
So these papers are used to clean and dry the pads. Do a search and you'll see this subject discussed in various places on the WW/BB, including instructions on how to use them, although Benni, in his post just above this one has the "technique" down pat, although he should have added: "Gently, very, very gently." It's that easy.
My favorite trick is to, VERY LIGHTLY, lubricate the pad surface, either with neatsfoot oil, or the Doctors almond oil (which I've been using lately,) if the culprit pad is either leather or skin.
If the pad is other than leather or skin, then I use regular ol' cork grease (try the Doctor's cork grease. What am I, a commercial for Doc's prods? Anyway, they work and he's one of "us," whatever that means.)
You still need to keep the pads clean and dry and to use papers for the purpose, but this reduces maintenance time and trouble by quite a bit, and keeps your pads from sticking all the time, if that may be the case.
Enjoy!
Peter
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-15 19:48
Peter wrote:
>
> Nothing personal, but pads need maintenance.
Hmmm. I've never had to do anything except replace a few over the years. Besides swabbing and blowing out moisture from time to time, I've not had any real problems. Neither has my son, who plays probably 4 hours a day, every day.
Perhaps some people aren't as lucky.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-02-15 22:03
In England, they sell king-sized cigarette papers that I understand are used for smoking a certain illicit though commonly available substance. Everytime I go there, I buy a dozen packets, and get some strange looks, or at least so I imagine. I guess I should take my clarinet next time.
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Author: Benny
Date: 2003-02-15 22:03
My teacher folds a cigarette paper up and puts it over his bottom teeth. As for cleaning pads, put a little rubbing alcohol on the corner of a handkerchief and rub it on the pad in question for a few seconds.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-15 22:43
I don't know that I would use rubbing alcohol on pads. Alcohol is kind of a drying agent with cellullose and related items. I would think it might tend to drive too much moisture from it, consequently, dry and crack anything leather, skin, etc.
But, perhaps that would be an interesting question for the Doctor?
Are you there Doc?
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Author: vin
Date: 2003-02-16 00:22
I always just go the convenience store and I ask for non-glue papers. When I was in high school (a long time ago), some clerk once asked me for ID and wouldn't sell me the papers, despite my fervent pleas that I wasn't using them to smoke anything!
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Author: Dan
Date: 2003-02-16 01:37
For what it's worth, I've never used cigarette papers. From the very beginning, I've always cut out strips of paper towels and they absorb moisture like crazy. I can do a whole clarinet with a 1"X4" piece of paper towel. When they get a little ragged, I just cut out a few more strips. Works like a charm for me.
Dan
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-16 01:55
Paper towels can also leave a lot of lint behind...
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Author: werner
Date: 2003-02-16 02:10
I somewhere read the advice of a clarinetmaker to put
cigaret papers between all pads / holes of the clarinet
and listen for the difference.
His idea was that the surface of the pads changes the
sound of the clarinet.
It was his oppinion that the surface of those papers
gives the best sound. Obviously they are falling
of when you are playing the clarinet (moving the keys).
So this experiment is just about listening for the
difference.
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2003-02-16 17:12
Peter,
Putting oil or any other petrolium product on a pad is a very bad idea!
It attracts dirt.....and affects the seal of the pad as it modifies the surface material. And talk about "sticking"....
Neatsfoot oil??? Wow, maybe on a baseball glove or hiking boots in extreme conditions.....but a very poor recommendation for clarinet pads.
Forest Aten
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-16 18:57
Forest,
The idea of lubricating the pads is recommended by various well established repair people, I didn't make it up. They do it themselves anytime they encounter a recurring pad-sticking problem.
I've known a tech to replace a badly sticking pad, only to have the client come back a month later with the same problem, That's how they solve it, once and for all. In fact, there are other lubricants and powders being specifically marketed to "end the sticking pad problem." I would venture to say that "powdering" a pad is tantamount to adding all kinds of atmospheric dust and dirt to it.
Just FYI: Anytime a repairperson I know tells me something new, especially something that may sound strange to me, I ask other repair people I know whether that's right, or not. I don't always get agreeing answers from them all, but I often get enough information as to the whys and wherefores so that I can make an intelligent choice for myself.
Neither almond oil, nor neat's-foot (correct spelling and hyphenation) oil are petroleum based lubricants. Almond oil is self explanatory and neatsfoot oil is derived from boiling the shin bones and feet of cattle (ugh!) and, for centuries used as a natural lubricant for leather, skin and other such items. I generally use almond oil.
Since I've been using the oil on my pads, I have not had a single incident of sticking pads either on clarinet or saxophone. Especially noticeable is the effect on saxophone pads, which have always given me more "sticking" problems than the clarinet pads.
Furthermore, I've never had to replace a pad due to any problem caused by *lightly* lubricating its surface with the oil.
If you remember, in a recent post I was the one who said not to over-lubricate a clarinet key mechanism, as it would pick up dirt and dust off of the atmosphere, which would eventually work its way into the moving parts and create a sludge, etc.
So I'm well aware of the picking up dirt issue. However, this hasn't been a noticeable problem with the pads, to date, and I've been doing this for a few years now.
I don't know that this is strictly true, but I would venture to say that, perhaps, the oil keeping a pad surface relatively pliable might even help it to seal better.
By the way, you're not supposed to soak the pad, but very lightly lubricate its surface.
I do this by lightly wetting a pad paper with the oil, laying it on a piece of tin foil (so any excess oil doesn't drip into the tone-hole) slipping it between the pad and the tone hole (oiled paper facing the pad) and lightly pressing the key closed for a few seconds.
Some people I know do it with a Q-tip moistened in the oil and rubbing it lightly on the pad. I don't like this becasue it can over-oil the pad and leave lint behind.
As I aid before, cork grease has also been recommended for the purpose, especially if the pads are of a material other than skin or leather.
Enjoy!
Peter
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-02-16 21:08
I love all you sneezy people!
What's the topic with the most responses on this page? This one.
What's it about? CIGARETTE PAPERS!
If we start one on the best sort of screwdriver available I bet it would be popular. (I actually saw one of these in a cult cyclists publication called "The Moultoneer")
Of course ligatures are always good value too.
Does anyone agree that some people are too obsessed with the minutiae of equipment to the exclusion of what they do with it?
jez
ps I've just had a spring break. Can anyone advise the best type of rubber-band 'til I can get it fixed?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-17 00:19
Peter wrote:
>
> Neither almond oil, nor neat's-foot (correct spelling and
> hyphenation) oil are petroleum based lubricants.
You know the rules about pointing out spelling errors. Please follow them.
FYI - Forest is a working professional in the DFW area, primarily on bass clarinet, repairs instruments, and knows a thing or two about leather pads. Don't dismiss his suggestion that oil on pads might not be a good thing out of hand.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-17 01:47
Mark C.,
I used the wrong spelling in my first post and, after I corrected myself in the last post, I used the wrong spelling again in the next paragraph after the "correction." I was not necessarily correcting Forest, I was actually correcting myself, even though I continued to use the wrong spelling again afterward, simply becasue it's easier to mis-spell it than to use the apostrophe and the hyphen.
I do know better than to correct someone else's spelling, as such, on the WW/BB, and I hope you have noticed that I have not corrected any other spelling on here going back just about as long as I can remember of it.
If putting a natural oil on pads was such a bad idea, the technicians I've talked to about it who use it, probably wouldn't.
It's possible that it may not be the best thing to do to a pad, but like other things one can do to solve a problem, most especially a recurring one, it's a solution that has been known to work, and work well enough.
Most techs probably wouldn't tell you that they did it, even if they did. Most don't even charge for doing a pad that way. The one I originally learned it from is does it like that and the only reason I learned about it is because I was sitting in his shop when he did it to a sax. I wonder how many people are walking around out there with oiled or greased pads and don't even know it!
Even if it shortened pad life by as much as a month, its not like replacing a recalcitrant pad is so expensive that you can't try to correct the problem with a recommeded fix used by repair technicians on a regular basis.
Like oiling a bore: Some do it, others don't. I can see that and this, too, adding to the unresolved issues list.
Right now I have several saxophones and several clarinets that have had their pads oiled for at least three years and they work with no significant difference from how they worked before the pads were oiled. Some of these instruments have had the odd pad replaced in that time, but not any more or any less that before I started lubbing my pads. I do know that they no longer stick, at any time at all, whether I dry them or not after use.
That's all I can vouch for.
Anyway, lubbing a pad is something that's usually done only once in a great while, as they don't need to be done on a regular basis and they actually behave well for months or years afterwards.
Whether Forest is a working professional or not, I don't disrespect his opinion in the least, but I know from personal experience that oiling *my* pads has helped with no tangible ill effects.
I don't think I gave the impression that I was being disrespecful to Forest, and if I did, that was not the intention.
I still would like to hear the Doc's opinion on the subject, simply becasue he is almost too knowledgeable in regards to matters such as these. He might not disuade me from oiling my pads either, but at least he might give us a more detailed and educated opinion than that which either I, or most others of us here could give.
It would be very interesting to read it.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-17 02:13
P.S.: I would also like tohear from other professional repair people on the subject of oiling or "cork" greasing a pad to keep it from sticking.
Has anyone else tried it?
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2003-02-17 05:05
Peter,
Oil...any oil....will attract dirt.
Also...as the oil evaporates it will leave a residue. Can you say sludge? An oil with a large percentage of light and volatile compounds will evaporate more than one with a larger amount of heavier compounds...but almost all (all, as far as I know) oil leaves a residue. I've seen oil on pads before...and know what kind of damage it does. Everything from highly refined key oil to veggie oils used for the bore....and all with the same result. Often the pad surface becomes sticky as the lighter compounds evaporate. The oil often passes the pad cover and permeates the felt...the lighter compounds evaporate but the heavier compounds (pollutants) are left behind and make for a very hard pad. This creates a huge potential for leaks, particularly if the oil only affects only one side of the pad. You can really have a problem then...hard on one side..soft and supple on the other side.
All of the repair people that I know deal with a sticky pad in the same way.
1 clean the pad and pad seat carefully with a lint free swab...using water.
2 replace the pad if necessary...clean the pad seat carefully with a lint free swab...using water.
These same techs then (often) advise the client that pads get sticky if/when they play their clarinet shortly after they eat or drink....
Dissolved sugars in the saliva are blown into the bore as condensate and of course onto the pads. Some people have more sugar in their saliva and will always have more trouble with this issue. This even if they are careful about playing after eating.
Forest Aten
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-17 10:25
As a repairer I agree with Forest.
Like all other household plant product oils in the house, when they are spilt on the shelf or around the neck of the bottle it does not take long for them to polymerize into a consistency of half-set varnish. Every person working regularly in a kitchen is familiar with this. This polymerized mess is extremely difficult to clean off. No solvent seems to work. The hardest pads I ever replace on instruments are those that have that sticky, tell-tale residue.
Neatsfoot oil. A long-time professional stock-whip maker/repairer has reported in a sax forum that properly maintained leather whips will last for decades. Those that have suffered from neatsfoot oil go brittle and crack. Unfortunately I have lost the thread without finding out what he DOES recommend. I believe his knowledge would be very applicable to leather pads at least. The demands are similar - the leather must remain supple, and tolerate a regular hiding.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-17 10:28
Forest, there ARE oils which leave zero residue. They are modern synthetic lubricants. Take a look at Omar Henderson's web page on key oils for examples:
http://www.doctorsprod.com/keyoil.html
The Alisyn key oils are in the same category.
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Author: tetiana
Date: 2003-02-17 14:48
I use cigarette papers only when I'm playing much more than I'm accustomed to (e.g. at summer music camp) and my botton lip starts to get really sore. Then they're a life saver. After removing the part with the glue on it you fold them in thirds and then in half on in thirds again and place them over the bottom teeth. The paper will mould to the shape of your teeth and protect your lip bigtime but without affecting your lip's ability to do the job. Because this is cigarette paper, it will not disintegrate in the saliva. I pop out the wad after practice and let it dry just as is (with the teeth imprints on it and all) and then reuse. Remarkably durable.
I've never used cigarette papers for swabbing out tone holes or pads, but I'm going to try that too.
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