 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: anna
Date: 2003-02-10 20:00
is there anything negative about the new green back valentino pads? are the old ones still in existence? should all repairmen already have the new ones?
also, what are gore-tex pads like?
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Author: Dan
Date: 2003-02-11 00:56
Hi anna, this can become a rather controversial subject, but I'll try to make the best explanation as I possibly can.
1) Basically, I have read that the Valentino acts pretty much like a switch. There is no gradual "give" in the nature of the foam. It has been reported on this BB that a smooth legato can be a bit more difficult because of the on/off switch nature of the pad.
2) IMO, the pad must be properly seated (compression ring formed evenly around the pad) or they can leak to quite an extent. I've installed quite a few and I know this from practical experience.
3) Because of the hardness of the top layer of the foam, on open hole keys, you may have to press a little bit harder to form a good seal. I've had this happen to me several times even with a pad that had a very good compression ring.
4) IMO, their sealing qualities are good but not excellent. IMO, they simply need a little extra pressure on the pad to seal well. This can in turn make the keys just a little bit harder to press down while playing.
Overall, I would rate them as "good" for normally closed pad cups, but rather "poor" on normally open pad cups. (IMO)
There are "soft" foam pads on the market that you might want to consider.
As to the gore-tex, I have read that due to the nature of the material, gore-tex "breathes" which means that water might be able to leak through. I've also heard that after a few years, the nature of the material begins to crumble. I don't know of anyone who would recommend them.
I hope this helps.
Dan
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-02-11 02:04
Anna,
I use Valentino pads on all my horns and do all my repair. I don't agree with Dan's analysis. They can be as hard to install and seat as regular pads.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2003-02-11 02:13
At first I was very impressed with this pad. I still think that it is an excellent choice for a second "outdoor" instrument or marching band instrument. However, after seeing some clarinets that have had these pads on for a year or more, the pad seat becomes deeper over time and the pads tend to leak around the seat as suggested by Dan. I just replaced some Valentino Greenback pads for a customer that had them installed on a LeBlanc Concerto. There wasn't anything I could do to stop them from leaking except to replace them with a premium double bladder pad.
I don't think that Gortex is the "ultimate" pad either. Gortex as used in raingear is advertised as "breathable". In other words it lets air pass through, but not the moisture. If the Gortex used in pads has the same properties, then are they truly "sealing", or is there some air permeating the pad seat and possibly leaking through the pad? I've installed Gortex in a few clarinets. I've found it more difficult to get a good seat and next to near impossible to reseat a pad that has been on the clarinet for a while. Secondly, Gortex pads to this date can not be purchased except in sets. Therefore, if a pad has to be replaced are you willing as a customer to pay for a full set to replace one pad? I certainly wouldn't purchase a full set just to replace one pad for a customer. (Dealer cost for a set is $36 plus shippng!!!) I don't know that many other repair shops would do that either. Francois Kloc told me last year that Buffet was trying to get to the point they could distribute Gortex pads in individual sizes. Until they do, I don't think that it will be a practicle solution.
jbutler
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Author: Dan
Date: 2003-02-11 03:12
Thanks John, your explanation of the gore-tex pads was much better than mine.
Dan
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-11 03:15
The Gore-Tex pads have a second impermeable membrane in addition to the Gore-Tex layer to make them air-tight.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-11 13:10
I have heard form a reliable source that the "Goretex" used for pads should not be compared with the Gortex used for rainwear. They are both "Teflon" (Poly-Tetra-Fluoro-Ethylene, or PTFE), as is plumbers tape. (PTFE also comes in other forms such as tubing, rod, sheet and solid blocks.)
It is only when it is very thin AND STRETCHED that it develops the microscopic holes that give the breathability of rainwear, allowing air and water vapour to slowly pass, but blocking liquid water.
BTW PTFE does not crumble with age, as Dan suggested. In the past it had problems with any glueing or laminating, but I believe these have been solved.
What is used for the pads is a non-permeable teflon film. The "Goretex" pads I have seen from "Music Center" look absolutely superb. I have not tried using them. Too expensive.
From Music Center it is not necessary to buy sets. However minimum order is 20, and I believe they only deal with professional repairers.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-02-11 15:05
John and Dan -
Tom Ridenour installed Valentinos on my instruments several years ago -- many years ago now, before he went to Leblanc -- and they are still tight. He said he used a special seating method.
Kalmen Opperman says that Valentinos seal tight and are stable, but when they go, they go fast. The surface delaminated from one of them, but Elmer's white glue put it back nicely.
Does either of you have experience with Straubinger pads? They're all the rage for flutes. They're said to have a hard surface, and may be better for metal rims than for wood.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2003-02-11 15:05
When I bought my RC prestige greenline 8 years ago it came with goretex pads. Since then, I only had to replace 2 pads and I am not sure they really had to be changed.
Interestingly enough those 2 pads are Valentino's and although they work, I am not very found of them. As Dan said I have to apply more pressure on my keys to get them to seal properly.
-S
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2003-02-11 20:34
Mark,
Thanks for the information. I really haven't dealt with Gortex except for installing them in a couple of clarinets and taking the blasted Gortex pad out of Buffet bass clarinets where they always seem to not seat properly on the register mechanism. I do think that if MusicCentre is marketing their product with the availability to purchase individual size that they will have the larger market share on this product.
Ken,
The pads that were in the Concerto had a very deep impression to the seat. So much so it was impossible to keep them from leaking unless the perfomer had the "grip of a gorilla" on the low F and E. Perhaps you use a lighter touch and therefore don't have the same seating problem that was encounterd on this Concerto. I did install Valentino pads in other instruments a little over a year ago. So far they have not come back for repair purposes. I was, perhaps, a little bit too concerned when the Concerto came back to the repair bench.
I haven't used Straubinger pads. Evidentally, by what I've heard through a "Straubinger dealer", is you have to spend the bucks to go through his training class in order to install the product. I don't want to invest the time and money to go to his clinic. I think if Straubinger wants his pad to compete with other products he will have to, eventually, market it to all without having technicians pay his fees for a clinic.
jbutler
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-12 08:49
I think the requirement for clinic training is probably insulting to most technicians, when the necessary information could be expressed clearly on one or two pages. I think this guy is trying to milk us, and trying to establish an unnecessary marketing mystique around his pads, so I am not interested. I do not need to attend a clinic to be told how to level tone holes and key cups, or shim pads.
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