 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-02-05 18:18
To Ken Shaw and other BBb contra experts:
In two weeks we are playing the Hungarian composer Peter Eötvös: "Atlantis" a.o. pieces by him. It's written for an enormous orchestra. Full string section, 16 percussionists, five of each ww, solo singers, you get the picture. I'm doing the BBb contra. At one spot he has written "flutter tongue" in the lowest register chromatically: F# F E D# D. I'm having problems with that since the flutter seems to interfere with the reed vibrations at those low frequences. I can flutter over the whole register of the instrument without problems except for the lowest octave where it seems to create some kind of turbulens inside the instrument. Did you ever have that experience? Any suggestions how to do it? I can only flutter with the tip of the tongue, not the "french" way.
I've also discovered that playing it just normally gives an illution of "flutter tongue" anyway so why bother.
Alphie
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-02-05 20:51
Alphie when was this work composed?
diz, Sydney
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-02-05 21:08
diz, it was composed in 1995. I was wrong about the strings. It says 2.2.2.2.2. in the score. And also only 10 percussion.
Atlantis (1995)
(37:30)
Text: Sándor Weöres
solo barytone, boy soprano, zymbalom, virtual choir (synth.) and orch.: 5 fl. (2-3-4-5 also picc., 4-5. also altfl.), 5 ob. (5. also eng. horn), 4 cl. (4. also bcl), 1 bcl (cbcl), 5 bassoon (4-5. also contrabassoon), 4 sax.(s., a., t., bar)/6 hr., 5 tr. (1-2 also picctr.) bugle., 5 trombone (1. alto, 5. basso ), 2 tuba, /10 perc. / 2 harps, 2 el.piano/3 synth./bassguitar/ strings: 2.2.2.2.2
Commissioned by WDR Köln
First performance: November 1995 Cologne
Alphie
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-02-06 14:45
Alphie -
I'm not the best authority on flutter tonguing. For some reason, I can do it only on the left side of my tongue. Nevertheless, I got out my Leblanc BBb contra last night and tried it with both the wide (Leblanc) and narrow (Selmer) mouthpieces.
I found that I could get my tongue to flutter on even the lowest notes (more easily on the narrow mouthpiece than on the wide), but that it didn't produce the flutter tongue sound that's possible on smaller instruments. It just made the sound soft and fuzzy.
I also tried fluttering with my uvula (which happened anyway), but it made no difference.
It didn't help to try double tonguing (Du-Gu Du-Gu or Didd-ll Didd-ll) or flipping the tip of my tongue up and down or across. It was just fast, sloppy tonguing, but again, I'm not really a double-tonguer.
Flutter tonguing worked in the standard way in the upper register on the contra, and more or less well in the upper part of the lower register, but like you, I found that as I went lower, the effect stopped working, even though my tongue was still fluttering.
I think it has to do with the frequency. Middle B on the Bb soprano clarinet is A-440. With the tongue fluttering at, say, 16 or 20 Hz, the reed has time to speak and vibrate several times with each flutter impulse, producing an audible frequency.
On the contra, two octaves lower, the same written note is A-110, the chalumeau written B is A-55, and, if the instrument had the B below, it would be A-25.5. Thus, the written low C is about 28 Hz. Thus the reed doesn't have time to complete two vibrations on each flutter. I don't know the physiological minimum for how many cycles of vibration there have to be before the ear hears a pitched tone, but this experiment suggests that it's at least two.
The composer, not being a contra player, asked for something he knew was possible on the soprano, and even on the bass, assuming it was possible on the contra. Since it's not, the question is how to produce the effect.
Some possibilities:
Start flutter tonguing on the lowest note where it works -- say, written C on the first ledger line below the (treble clef) staff -- and slur your way down to the lower notes, working on keeping the flutter going. I was able to do that, but, again, it didn't do what I wanted it to do. The "flutter" effect faded away below low G.
Try fluttering with your uvula rather than your tongue. The natural frequency of that flutter is lower. As I went down lower, my uvula started vibrating along with my tongue, unless I deliberately stopped it. This helped a little, but still didn't produce a recognizable flutter tongue effect on the bottom notes.
In earlier postings, I've advised using a soft but not too soft reed on contra -- just hard enough to avoid a pitchless "flapping" sound on the low notes. In this case, however, the flapping quality may be the best substitute for flutter tonguing, particularly if you play softly.
Get together with your tuba player and find out how low flutter tonguing can be done on tuba. If your bassoonist has a contrabassoon, an experiment there would be useful, too.
Talk with the band director. You might even get in touch with the composer. In a posting on the Klarinet list just yesterday at http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/2003/02/000117.txt, Dan Leeson tells of doing just that with Lou Harrison.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-02-06 23:13
Dear Ken,
Thank you for your comprehensive answer. Since Peter Eötvös is the composer as well as the conductor I will take the opportunity to ask him about what he expects by writing this way as well as asking him if somebody braught up this issue before about this piece.
I think we agree that the problem here is the low frequecies that don't give enough room for a proper flutter tongue effect. I got the same result as you that the flutter effect disappears definately below low G, for me even before.
Unfortunately I can't use a too soft reed that I agree would give a resonably good effect as a substitute for flutter but the piece is full of other sustained low notes as well some fast moving bits in higher registers that require a harder reed for good sound.
The important issue after all is what kind of effect the composer had in mind when he wrote this and since he's there we can always have a discussion and come up with a solution. In the mean time I could do with some more practicing and see if I'm getting better at it. I will also talk to the tubas and the contrabassoon and see if they have simmilar writing and ask them what they're gonna do.
Thanks again,
Alphie
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