 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-01-30 01:31
In this extremely dry weather, I keep having problems with loose tenon rings, especially the two at the ends of the barrel. That is one problem that I figure I should be able to take care of myself. When I took the rings off, there was some gauzy fabric separating the ring from the wood. It is now too wrinkled to be reused. Is this the material of choice or is it OK to use cigarette, or some other kind of, paper? I did use cigarette paper and gently tapped the rings back on. They seem pretty tight now. Is this an acceptable procedure, or could it lead to problems later on? I would appreciate any advice. Thanks!
Henry
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-30 01:44
Keep the wood well oiled in the dry season and it should swell out to take care of your loose tenon rings.
If it doesn't, take it to a reputable tech, although he would likely just do the same thing that you did!
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Author: Christine
Date: 2003-01-30 07:31
I have also used cig. paper for this purpose and have had no problems.
Christine
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-01-30 08:46
I presume you mean tenon SOCKET rings.
The important thing is that the rings, together with any glue/packing, prevent the timber of the socket from being forced out by the tenon (& cork) and spliting.
The ring should offer support for the timber around the ENTIRE circumference. A piece of paper (or any other material) jammed in one location may not do this.
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-30 14:25
I'm assuming Henry means the two barrel rings. I guess we all have this problem in winter and I am of the opinion it's from low humidity. Cig.paper seems but plumbers teflon tape might work better. Whatever you use just remember that when the humidity increases the wood will want to swell....and at least theoretically could expand the metal rings....every season.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-01-30 21:30
Bob, do you mean that there is no way to solve this proplem permanently?
Henry
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-31 15:36
Henry, I really don't know what the permanent solution is....or even if there is one...for wood barrels. Typically I think most would suggest taking it to a technician for "swedging"....but it's theoretically possible that later when the wood swells it might crack. I just don't know.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-31 20:06
Gee, Henry,
A permanent solution? Wood instruments require regular care, no matter what the instrument, especially in drastically changing climates.
The only solution I know to work regularly is to ensure the proper moisture content of the wood, which is, by no means a "permanent" solution, but an ongoing, never ending task.
Figure that the tenon rings (should have) fit tightly when the instrument was brand new and impregnated with oil from the manufacturer. What happened in the meantime to make them loose?
Although I've seen some pretty strange things in my time, I doubt the rings expanded out over the tenon joints, although it could be remotely possible. Considering that the rings are there to keep the wood from being stressed outwardly and splitting, I don't think the rings are made to expand as easily as all that.
That is, unless you have a very cheap instrument and all the metal hardware on it is made of a very soft alloy. That I have seen, but not on any good instrument.
For my money, I'll take the side of the instrument having lost a lot of its moisture content and shrunk away from under the tennon rings.
Plastic instruments don't much suffer from this malady. If you want a more permanent solution you might want to consider this venue.
Otherwise, "Keep the wood well oiled, especially in the dry season and it should swell out to take care of your loose tenon rings." Hopefully.
It should also keep ypur instrument from soaking up excess water moisture during the "wet" season, if you have one of these where you live.
At least once a year, but definitely not less than once every couple of years, I like to take my wood instruments to a (my) reputable tech to be stripped of all the hardware and, literally, immersed in oil for a short length of time, then set aside to soak up the oil.
In 2001 I started using the Doctor's bore oil for this and it's a wonderful product. In fact, I supply my own to the tech whenever I have this done. Actually, except for the stripping and reassembling, I do it all myself. You should try it.
Put a drop on a tennon and see how long it takes to soak it up. If it soaks all, or most of it up within a couple of hours, or so, you should consider giving your instrument a proper oil treatment.
I buy the large bottles of the Doctor's almond+ oil and pour enough to cover the wall thickness of the instrument into a small trough I made for the purpose(long enough to fit the longest joint of your longest wood instrument.)
Just drop it in and turn it slowly in the oil for a few minutes, or so. Then take it out, stand it on end for a minute to drain it well of any excess, and lay it down on a piece of tin foil (something non-absorbent that won't compete with the wood as it soaks up the oil or build a jig to hold it up by the ends) and leave it for 24 hours to soak up what it picked up.
If it soaks it all up, repeat the operation until it doesn't soak it all up. Then wipe it down really well and leave it in wrapped in a cotton cloth (old t-shirt?) for 24 hours to get rid of any bleeding it might do.
It works for me. I've never had an instrument crack or suffer from loose rings, etc., yet.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-01-31 20:52
Thanks, Peter, for your detailed maintenance procedures. Your points are all well taken. I do try to keep my horn in top shape. It is a Leblanc LL that I picked up on e-Bay last August at a great price (just over $300). My tech tweaked it a bit and it is in great shape. Not knowing its maintenance history, I immediately got essentially all of the Doc's products, and got to work. I stripped the horn of all its key work (I am rather handy and had done this many times with my alto sax) and cleaned the wood and silver thoroughly. I even put the Doc's Woodwind Wax on everything to prevent finger prints. After reassembly, I oiled the bore with a swab (would in retrospect have been easier prior to assembly!) and oiled the keywork. At that time (medium to high humidity), the rings were all tight. But in these winter months here in the Northeast the humidity in the house is getting very low and that obviously is causing the problems. I have managed to tighten the rings considerably with narrow strips of cigarette paper, although they can still be slightly turned when enough torque is applied. The large ring at the end of the bell is extremely loose and will need to be crimped. I have made arrangements for this with a tech. Yesterday I reoiled the barrel and bell and I hope to do the two joints very soon. Perhaps I'll get this problem under control yet! Thanks again!
Henry
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-31 22:27
Before you go get anything crimped, I urge you to try replacing the lost moisture back into the clarinet first!
If you crimp and/or swage the loose items indescriminately, you might do one or three things to it:
One, by squeezing the wood under the metal, you'll keep the wood from being able to soak up as much of the life-prolonging oil it would have soaked up without the squeezing of the wood, or possibly, as deeply.
Two, if it ever soaks up enough moisture, oil or otherwise to swell the wood back to its old dimentions, and those dimentions exceeded the new size of the crimped rings, you'll end up with a ridge of swollen wood around the edge of the ring and too compressed wood under it. Especially around the bell ring, that can be ugly.
Which brings me to the third item: If your tennon ring is swaged while the instrument's wood is shrunk from lack of moisture content, it can cause the wood to expand towards the inside of the bore when the wood swells back up with moisture content in the summer, and it can swell enough to infringe on the proper fitting of the other half of the joint.
Also, a dry instrument can change the size of the bore and, therefore, also change the pitch of some or all the notes.
Think about it before you do it.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-02-01 00:24
Actually, you're talking about putting oil into the wood, not moisture, Peter. Oil is generally hydrophobic, not hydrophilic (thus the term "water and oil don't mix"), so oiling the wood would tend to keep moisture out.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-01 00:47
Yes, "filling" the wood up with oil is what I'm talking about, however, when the "wet" season comes along, there will always be some water moisture absorbed, regardless of the oil, especially if the oiling is not kept up with and then the wood can just absorb to its heart content (no pun intended.) Wood can have both, water and oil in it, if one or the other hasn't occupied all the "soak-up" room.
Oil also has "moisture" in it, albeit, in a different way than water, otherwise, you would not be able to evaporate the "moisture" out of oil and wind up with sludge!
By the way, the terminology you used to describe oil's reaction to water is correct, but in the garment industry, they used to use (don't know if they still do) the word hydrophillic to describe fabrics that actually repelled water.
In that respect, they said that the fabric "loves" water because it can go into it and come out "unsoaked," as it were, and whatever little it absorbed would dry in a very short few minutes. (I once had a soft-lines buyer girlfriend.)
Enjoy!
Peter
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-02-01 00:52
Thanks, Mark, for chiming in. I was just going to make similar comments myself in response to Peter. I oiled my barrel and bell yesterday, both inside and outside by applying a film on the surface. After a 24 hour wait, I cleaned off the excess oil. There was absolutely no difference in the tightness of the rings! So, if the oil penetrated into the wood (and there was evidence that it did by the presence of some dry spots), it apparently did not SWELL the wood. Only water seems to be able to do THAT because of the hydrophilicity of wood. Of course, I could solve the problem by exposing the horn to a high humidity environment but I would bet that the problem would recur within a day in a low-humidity environment which happens to be the environment in which I play this time of the year. I have oiled the barrel and bell again an hour ago to see if they will pick up more oil but I'm reasonably certain that it will make no difference in ring tightness. So, I'm still at a loss how to solve this problem with a degree of permanence.
Doc Henderson, if you are following this thread, I would be very interested in hearing your suggestions.
Henry
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-02-01 00:58
Peter, our messages just crossed. You are wrong in the terminology of fabrics. Fabrics that shun water (e.g., in rain coats) are hydrophobic (water-fearing), not hydrophilic (water-loving).
Henry
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-02-01 01:11
Ask someone who worked in the garment industry buying cloth or clothes in the last half of the 1970's. The girl who taught me that was a graduate of the Fashion Institute of Technology, in NY, and a buyer for Federated Department Stores, one of the major American chains.
The terminology was applied to the nylons, polyesters and quianas, which are not considered to be water absorbent fabrics.
I doubt (and would hope) that she was not that far wrong, considering her education and job. I also learned a few other useful things from her, including the cost/wholesale/retail formulas.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-01 10:26
"If your tennon ring is swaged while the instrument's wood is shrunk from lack of moisture content, it can cause the wood to expand towards the inside of the bore when the wood swells back up with moisture content in the summer"
I reported some experiments on this notion a few months ago, and reported in this forum. The timber did NOT 'expand' into the bore. Even with thorough soaking, the inner diameter of the timber beneath a tenon socket ring did not reduce.
I cannot see how oiling could posssibly expand the timber, unless specially chosen hydrophylic or moisture buffering oils were used. This would certainly not be the case for many bore oils.
Enter Bore Doctor, our resident expert on this subject.....
http://www.doctorsprod.com/DrsProduct.html
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-02-01 16:43
Yes, Gordon, I remember your experiment very well indeed but you did your swelling test with the rings removed. If there had been tight rings in place, and assuming that the rings are completely rigid without any "give", the results might well have been different. If the outer diameter is fixed and the wood swells, the increase in wood volume has to go somewhere. Where else than inward? So Peter may have a point after all. No?
On more important matters: What a sad day!
Henry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-02-02 02:32
Quite so. I forgot.
If the outside circumference is constricted by a ring, then I would expect a similar result. After all, in my experiment the outside was indeed constricted by the dry, relatively non-expanding timber of the outside of the barrel. The outside would have been under circumferential tension, and hence slightly increased. With a ring the effect would be similar, but with less expansion. The inside would have been under circumferential compression, which, depending on "Poisson's Ratio" (**See below) for this timber I would expect very slight reduction of inner diameter. This was not the measurable case. With a more constricted outer diameter, with a metal ring, I would expect slightly more compression on the inside, and therefore slightly more reduction of diameter. However slightly more than "not measurably significant" is very likely to still be not measurable significant.
Once again, I stress that I have NEVER needed to adjust the fit of a mouthpiece when I have had to ease every other tenon. This evidence very strongly suggests it is expansion of tenons that cause joints to bind, not contraction of sockets. I would expect a TIMBER mouthpiece to jam when the other timber tenons swelled and jammed.
Your turn to experiment?
** "Poison's ratio" refers to the resulting strain induced in a plane, divided by the strain imposed on the material on another plane at right angles. Cork is 0, while metals are typically 0.3 I know not the value for moist grenadilla.
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