 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meighan Stoops
Date: 2003-01-24 17:43
I've been trying to teach myself to slap tongue withOUT great success. I've talked to people who do it extremely well and that has been somewhat helpful. Can anyone out there do it and do they have a successful method for teaching it?
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Author: Robert Hoit
Date: 2003-01-24 18:11
Ok here is the thing.. it takes time. I had to practice for 1 calender year, with my bass clarinet mouthpiece. mostly i did this sitting in front of the TV watching BBC2...
The best way to think about it i have found is that you are creating an area of higher pressure in yur mouth than exists in the instrument.(for purposes I am goign to tak bass clarinet here...it is possible on al clarinets.. i even do it on Eb now.. but it is easiest to learn on bass)
To create this pressure use the front of the tounge flattened and close off the reed. put some pressure both with the tounge and a feeling of solid air behind it. Then release the tounge fast. Do not hink about puttnig air into the bass, that will hapen automaticaly creating the slap tounge.
this being said..this is nto the easiest way to do it.. thsi is the way that I learned...
Henri has a way of teachign it that involves using a "Doo" tounge and moving it further and further back onte reed.. when done slowly there becomes a point that it is aslap tounge. I have known several people who have had sucess with this method...althogh it stil takes about 1 calender year to get the tounge muscles condtioned eough to do it fast.(i can do it at 16th notes 120)
lets see... thse are the two methods I use to teach folk right now... it is best to work with someone in person though...
Henri ofter did this thing where he had the reed "stick" to the tounge and it was indeed akin to slaptounge..but no one in the studio ever was realy able to directly learn slap tounge fromit.. it ismroe like an idicator that u knowwhat ur doing.
Well at least this should give some food for thought. Have u eard from San fran yet? I haven't but if i c u there we could work on it a bit.
good luck. btw which piece are u working on tat requires it?
i'll brainstorm a bit more if none of this is helpful.
cheers,
bob
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-01-24 22:48
Dumb question......what is slap tongue used for?
Classical? Jazz? Klezmer?
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Author: Ken
Date: 2003-01-24 23:21
In my circles slap tonguing is normally used as a substitute for double tonguing on "at the edge" fast tempos or too brisk physically to negotiate steady/rhythmic single tonguing. Its uses vary from player to player and situation; for instance, it can be applied when creating a galloping horse effect (dotted 16th triplets) or the onslaught of a growl. When I use it I have to revert to anchor tonguing; I brace the tip of my tongue on the inside of my lower front teeth, arch my tongue and make sudden, quick stabs attacking in the middle of my tongue, then add an extra blast of air for a "double or repeated". I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner or intermediate player ... it could screw-up one's chops and mine's just one self-perceived convoluted way to do it.
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Author: Robert Hoit
Date: 2003-01-25 04:26
slap tounge is a valid 20th century classical music technique. i have many pieces that require the use of this techique.
from martino's triple concerto.. to any number of solo pieces inculding, chimaera(enrique rxach), spasm(mike lowenstern), Vino de porto brazil(henri bok), sparkle(by hmm i forgot... mm something Rei), Strata (donald martino),the list can go on for a logn time etc...
it is a technique that is as critical as multiphonics for bass clarinet.
And i know meighan is more than a begginer player since she has at least sent a tape off for the San fran bass audition, which indicates a certain level of playing....
well that is my 2 cents...
cheers,
bob
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-01-25 07:00
Ken wrote: "In my circles slap tonguing is normally used as a substitute for double tonguing on "at the edge" fast tempos or too brisk physically to negotiate steady/rhythmic single tonguing"
Ken, what you are referring to is not slap tonguing. Slap tonguing is the percussive effect made when a vacuum is created between the tongue and the reed. When the tongue is released, the reed hits back on the mouthpiece, creating a very loud "slap". It's mainly used in some contemporary clarinet pieces.
Meighan, it's hard to describe in writing, but here's how I learnt slap tonguing:
1. Take the reed and hold it against your tongue. Apply some pressure and pull it away quickly. What you are looking for is a vacuum between you tongue and the reed, so that when you pull the reed away, there is some resistance.
2. Now do the same, but this time pulling your tongue away from the reed, rather than the reed away from the tongue.
3. Now the fun starts- Put the reed on the mouthpiece (without the ligature), and hold the reed at its base. Pull your tongue away from the reed. If a vacuum has been created, the reed will pull away from the mouthpiece at the tip, and make a loud slap when it hits back on the mouthpiece. The first time you do this, you will be very pleased with the result!
4. Once you can do that, put the ligutre back on, and do the same thing. The "slap" won't be as percussive, because the reed won't actually lift off the mouthpiece once the ligature is attached. But by now you will be able to feel whether or not you have created a vacuum.
5. All that is now left to do is blow. Once you blow air into the instrument, you should get a very loud slap effect.
This took me some months to learn properly. An important thing to remember is that you don't have to push TOO hard with the tongue on the reed. It's the vacuum that creates the slap, not pressure from tongue. Good luck!
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Author: Meighan Stoops
Date: 2003-01-25 20:05
Bob and Liqourice-
Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it ends up. I've half-heartedly tried to learn in the past but now I really need to just do it. This time it's for a brand new Heinz Holliger piece commissioned by the Geneva Competition. It's for percussion, fl, cl, horn, and piano. I have to slap on both Bb (mostly) and bass. We shall see....Other techinques (on the same piece) include: teeth on reed, yelling while playing, buzzing on the bass socket, playing only the Bb mouthpiece while venting with your finger, multiphonics (individual and glissando-ing with a drone)....probably forgot a few.
Haven't heard from SF-Bob. Word on the street is that they only want to hear 50 players at the prelims. Know anybody going?
Meighan
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Author: Ken
Date: 2003-01-27 03:09
Liquorice wrote: "Ken, what you are referring to is not slap tonguing. Slap tonguing is the percussive effect made when a vacuum is created between the tongue and the reed. When the tongue is released, the reed hits back on the mouthpiece, creating a very loud "slap". It's mainly used in some contemporary clarinet pieces."
--I've never heard your affect and described method specifically called "slap tonguing" but the technique seems efficient enough. To produce that kind of popping sound I've gotten good results and better vacuum by bracing the bottom of my tongue over and between the the mpc and reed tip. Build up the desired pressure containing the trapped air in the bottom of my mouth, close off my throat then snap the tongue upwards expelling the suction. As previously stated, and not to say I'm right, I always understood and applied slap tonguing as a virtual "double-tonguing" technique. v/r Ken
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Author: Meighan Stoops
Date: 2003-01-27 03:58
Ken-
I'm trying to physically understand what you mean by snapping the tongue upwards. The limited amount of success that I've had with achieving the slap sound (without air right now, unfortunately) happens when i drop the tongue (and my jaw to some degree). I'm also positioning the tongue in an "anchor" position. I know someone who does this with great success. I think my idea of "coughing" while doing this is similar to your description of closing off the throat though.
I also know someone who bruised her tongue learing this techinque! So I'm trying to be careful.
Meighan
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-27 12:25
Isn't this illegal in most States?
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Author: Ken
Date: 2003-01-27 15:22
Meighan, I took a sec and noodled with Liquorice's technique; I found the affect convincing and easy to pick up ... overall, a less confusing technique than the one(s) I purport. Obviously, and even as an advanced player, if you feel you're harming yourself I'd bag it immediately and try some other "golly gee" alternatives ... it's certainly not worth damaging your chops, or worse, undoing months and/or years of embouchure development. I don't know what piece you're working on or performance situation but there are always alternative tricks and shortcuts to simulate the affect.
A simple slapping of the upper/lower key rings simultaneously or the left hand against the upper joint tear drop keys will produce a believable slap sound. You can also muster a little suction between reed and mpc, quickly pop open your lips and "kiss" the mpc for a suitable pop. My definition and physcial approach to slap tonguing is my own concoction, unorthodox and maybe not the ideal method for someone else ... you're indeed correct, "be careful". v/r Ken
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