 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clair
Date: 2003-01-22 22:00
Big Problem--after four years of intense and competitive clarinet playing (I'm in high school) my new teacher tells me I'm tonguing the wrong way. I've been using the tip of my tongue on the mouthpiece. She tells me I need to use the middle of my tongue. I'm confused. This makes me sound terrible and I've been trying for quite awhile now to get it to work but it makes me sound like I started to play clarinet a day ago...and I can tongue very fast (and in my opinion well) using the way I'm used to and nobody else I have ever played for has noticed anything very wrong with my tonguing...is changing my technique really the right thing to do? I've never heard of her suggested style of tonguing before...what is it and should I really use it?? Thanks so much for any advice...I really need it.
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Author: Burt
Date: 2003-01-22 22:24
Most players use the tip of the tongue to the tip of the mouthpiece. A few (including me) use the middle of the tongue, anchoring the tip under the lip. I'm trying to change in the opposite direction from you and am having trouble - so, when necessary, I go back to my old way.
SO - there is no single correct way. Your present method is the most popular.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-01-22 22:34
One of my pet hates is the teacher who has absolute ideas. I am a professional player and I use the tip for single tongueing and rock the tongue to the middle for a different attack. I also heretically use double and triple tongueing. Beware of somebody who advocates only one correct way.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-01-22 23:04
Did you tell her what you wrote here? That you feel your usual way is working just fine? He/she may reconsider once they know that you're comfortable with what you're doing.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-22 23:13
Whoa, lets go back a step here.
Make sure you are understanding exactly what your teacher is asking you to do.
If you are currently tonguing (and having any success at all) using the front of the tip of your tongue at (not on) the tip of the reed
AND
your new teacher is telling you to use the middle of your tongue on the tip of the reed. Possibly 'anchoring' your tongue behind your front teeth).
AND
you just have had one or two lessons
Then you need to change teachers IMMEDIATELY. This kind of thing could permanently harm your ability to play the clarinet as well as otherwise possible.
I am serious about this.
Yes, there are isolated examples of anchor-toungers who have had enormous success both with their articulation and with their playing careers.
But it is not something that should be encouraged in someone who has already learned the 'orthodox' way. Not at an advanced high school age. No way. I definately draw a line there.
Consult a professional clarinet player if you are unsure about any of this. Sorry for the possible bad news.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Lollypop Stick
Date: 2003-01-23 01:27
I am self taught and do not read music, I have been playing for some years, I used the tip of the tongue as recomended in many books, but only last year I was experimenting with tongueing position to improve my articulation, this is probably unconventional but I am now using a place just a little away from the tip, and hitting the reed from an angle just below, I still also hit the tip of the mouthpiece, that works 'FOR ME', but the middle of the tongue, I just tried a few minutes ago, NO, NO, NO! Stick to correct way, the tip then when you have experience and good facilty on the instrument try some subtle experiments.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-01-23 07:35
DON'T CHANGE the way that you tongue. "Tip-to-tip" tonguing is used by most professionals.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-01-23 08:05
Tip to tip appears the most common and advocated by the majority of advanced players. So if that is really what you are currently doing then it sounds like you ought not to change. Personally, I stopped doing tip to tip several years ago and have much more success with blade to tip (but with no anchoring).
However, has your teacher said there is something wrong with your sound when articulating? Such as sounding too aggressive, or percussive, or with a spitty sound? I can imagine blade to tip, properly executed, would reduce such an effect. So the point is whether your teacher is merely doctrinaire, or is seeking to find a solution bespoke to you for problems you actually have.
I endorse the view that there are many ways to achieve articulation, but tip to tip is the most commonly accepted.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-23 13:20
Folks, I really do feel forced to speak up again, because it's more than what's 'commonly accepted.'
Articulation is speech on the clarinet. We need to have as many subtleties of tonguestrokes on the clarinet as we do consonants in our speech.
If we as humans lost the front half of our tongues, it might not be impossible to relearn speaking the English language with a lot of speech therapy, but it would take an enormous amount of work.
It is NOT a coincidence that Bonade, Marcellus, Brody, Drucker, Combs, Wright (need I go on?), masters of articulation all, have used an 'orthodox' approach to tonguing.
On the other hand, articulation is guided mostly by the ear (just as we learn as infants how to speak by listening to our parents and watching their mouths. . .on clarinet we can't watch anyone's tongue). Thus it is possible with another technique (anchor tonguing) to use the ear to develop the refinement of 'orthodox' technique (along with tons of practicing, just as one has to ANY way you learn ANY technique). But let me tell you from experience, it doesn't happen very often with anchor tonguing.
I won't go as far as Mr. Marcellus, who very frankly called anchor tonguing "a disease." But I know exactly why he said that.
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Author: Clair
Date: 2003-01-23 14:28
Wow. That doesn't sound good--I've definately heard a lot of bad things about anchor tonguing (and it certainly matches the description of the technique I'm being told to switch to). But then, now what do I do? The thing is, aside from the tonguing issue, this new teacher has taught me much more in two short lessons than my other teacher did in the year and a half I studied with her, and I've already noticed certain improvements in my playing. And there are no other good teachers available--I've looked extensively. And even if there were, I would feel terrible switching teachers again as I did so the first time of my own will because of this new teacher's good reputation. Switching again would seem like I believe myself to be too good for these teachers and above their level--very conceited!
I definately don't want to get stuck with anchor tonguing. So, if I stay with this teacher, how do I tell her that I don't want to learn her tonguing technique without offending her? Is there any polite way to broach this subject with her?
Thanks to all for the advice.
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Author: Matt
Date: 2003-01-23 14:38
Clair:
Print this thread out & take it with you to your next lesson. Ask her to explain again what she wants and discuss this thread with her. I would expect that there is a misunderstanding somewhere along the way.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-23 14:59
Anchors are for boats, not clarinetists!! Try to find a new teacher--hopefully a clarinet specialist--who will take what you have to offer and suggest ways for you to improve without trying to fix something isn't broken. If finding such a teacher is not possible because of your locale, then, as you only hve one more semester of high school, respectfully decline any further help from your "new" teacher and wait until you begin college and, hopefully, find more professional clarinet instruction available. Most of us (if not all) concur that your use of the tip of the tongue to the reed is best and, at least for me, that to change to the anchor method is not in your best interests as a developing clarinetist. Your "new" teacher may find your attiude arrogant or rebellious, but if he/she is a person of character, understanding and professionalism should prevail. If not, then clinging to your convictions and pursuing the method of articulation that you find successful (again, as do most of us) will still be to your best long term advantage. Hang in there, good luck, and continue to play your best for your own sake and that of your high school band.
(A bit of further advice, it will be best for any disagreement between you and your instructor to occur in relative privacy, and not if front of others)
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-01-23 15:02
Clair -
"Anchor tonguing" means that you tuck the tip of your tongue down behind your lower teeth, so that it serves as a fulcrum. You should definitely avoid this (even though a few major players, such as Leister and Lurie, use it successfully). The problem is that your entire tongue has to move, which is clumsy, slow and ineffcient.
On the other hand, the preferred "tip to tip" tonguing method doesn't mean the extreme tip of your tongue goes between the tip of the reed and the tip of the mouthpiece. Depending on the length of your tongue, the shape of your teeth, and many other individual factors, your tongue may touch the reed slightly back of the tip of both your tongue and the reed. The important thing is that the tip of your tongue must not be anchored. The tonguing motion is done with only the front part of your tongue, which is a smaller, quicker and more efficient motion than anchor tonguing.
Talk to your teacher and find out exactly what she's telling you to do. If she wants you to anchor tongue, you should probably change teachers. If she only wants you to move the contact point of your tongue back slightly (for example, to get rid of a "spitty" articulation), then stick with her.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2003-01-23 15:51
Do not anchor tongue. Change teachers if that is what "she" is suggesting. You don't communicate with people with your tongue-tip anchored, so, how can you even consider anchoring your tongue for clarinet articulation?
Just as Shaw's posting stated, the length of your tongue, dental structure, etc., play a role in tongue placement, but the point is that the tongue is "free" in the mouth for purposes of clarity in articulation. Marcellus did call anchor-tonguing a disease, and, he was quite correct.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-23 16:10
Ken, can you substantiate that Leister anchor tongues? I have read that here before, but never by someone who heard it from Leister's mouth. I would be MOST surprised to learn it was true.
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2003-01-23 19:11
kia ora
the original post + lollypop stick both claimed that they hit the MOUTHPIECE with their tongue when articulating. I'm suprised that no one else has commented on it as i've never heard of any successful player doing THAT.
As i understand it the TIP of the tongue (for an ideal result) has contact with the reed a few millimetres down from the tip, and as only the very end of the tongue need move- how could it do this and additionally touch the mouthpiece? i am sure that there are variations on this tongue/reed contact depending on individual anatomy etc, but touching the mouthpiece seems like a bit too much variation for me.....
Anchor tongueing or not, it sounds like something has to change if indeed the tongue comes into contact with the mouthpiece?
donal
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Author: Clair
Date: 2003-01-23 19:38
sorry, didn't mean to say I tongue that way---It's just that since the reed is on the mouthpiece I sort of figured people would know what I was talking about. Sorry. But no, I tongue the 'orthodox' way I believe, tip of tongue to (near) tip of reed like nzdonald described, not tip of mouthpiece. And as the new tonguing I've been suggested to use was described to me as keeping the tip of my tongue right behind my lower teeth and using the middle part of my tongue, I'm pretty sure it is anchor tonguing.
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Author: earl thomas
Date: 2003-01-23 21:03
Clair:
That which you described is anchor tonguing, and I'm glad to read that you've not actually contracted that "disease".
If Leister is anchor tonguing it would be in line with the old German teaching (and it is definitely "old") that I saw illustrated in a paperbook book by Eby. I have it somewhere, but don't refer to it except by accident, because I fear it's contagious. As a self-taught Houston beginner in 1936, I started by anchor tonguing and was highly complimented by one an all for a very "bell-like" staccato. But, thankfully, Joe Allard spotted the malady within seconds of my first cherished lesson with him, and I was able to change fairly fast. I've had one student who corrected the problem in a week, and others who took longer to become comfortable. While I never really discussed or argued the situation with Mr. Allard, I think he did come to rationalize anchor-tonguing as being dependent on the length of one's tongue, but of this, I'm not certain. I do know that a lot of saxophonists do anchor tongue, but that's their preference. His better pupils, I'm sure, had the matter under discussion with him quite often.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-01-23 21:05
HAT -
I've read about Leister anchor-tonguing here and on the Klarinet board, but I've never met him and don't know any of his students. From his otherwise boring Spohr Concerto recordings, I know he can tongue very fast, so maybe I'm wrong.
Any Leister students out there?
I've been told many times that Lurie anchor tongues. From my own experience, before switching over, it's possible to anchor tongue 16ths at 136.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lollypop Stick
Date: 2003-01-23 22:52
NZDONALD, commented on me saying that I touched the mouthpiece with the tip of the tongue when tongueing, this was a mistake on my part, I DONT, when I read my mail the day after I went cold, I snook reluctantly to my clarinet and tested myself, I was wrong, I apologise profusely all over the place, thanks for commenting on it.
Barrie Marshall
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2003-01-24 02:39
sorry if i sounded.... testy? judgemental? but glad that it's all cleared up... this means i STILL haven't heard of anyone tongueing on the mouthpiece! maybe i never will.
donald
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-01-24 08:30
Just for the sake of clarity I will repeat that I do not do anchor tonguing, and wouldn't know how to approach that convoluted sounding system. But there is a range of possibilities between absolute tip to tip, and all the way down to the anchor. And if someone can achieve a bell like stacatto and rapid articulation with the anchor technique, what is so bad about that anyway? What has been improved so dramatically by the change that makes tip to tip so sacrosanct? Personally I have never been that keen on burning heretics.
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Author: david dow
Date: 2003-01-24 14:50
Let me add a few thibngs here to this already full bodied discussion.
One thing for sure tip tongueing is the easiest way to go to get speed and quality of staccatto.
I know of no professional who uses anchor-tongueing and would seriously be concerned if this is the way you are being taught. the majority of pros and amateur players all work with tip to tip tongueing.
Alfred Prinz is one of the all time great anchor tongue players,but to be truthful he probably had the advantage of the finest teachers and came upon the system as a result of what best for himself.
I think that if this technique does work well, then certainly go with it. I would also think that you should make sure that you have tested normal tip to reed technique and make sure you feel the anchor technique is easiest.
I agree with Hat that anchor tongueing is quite a tricky technique to develop...be sure to get some good advice on how you are articulating....
I would like to add to the list of tip tongueing people I know are:
Pascal Moragues Orchestre de Paris
Guy Desplus Domaine Musicale
Guy Dangain Orchestre Nat. de France
Robert Fontaine Orchestre Nouvel Philjarmonique de France
Serge Dangain
Yona Ettlinger
Sincerely
David Dow
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