 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: brenda siewert
Date: 2003-01-21 19:09
A pet peeve, if you will, is clarinets that have unsmooth key action. The right hand lower keys "klunk" when you play them. I used to attribute this to most of the Leblancs I played, but I've found a few new Buffet R-13s that do it as well. After having expensive "tweeking" on them I can get them smooth--but what are some brands that have nice smooth action from the start? I've heard Rossi is a good one.
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Author: Ken
Date: 2003-01-21 22:15
I've endured the annoying thuds and unceremonious pops on my R-13 134XXX lower right/left E/Bs for years, and the bell resonates the sound even more. I've had it looked at by a number of folks; Mike Hammer, Leonard Zopf and Tim Clark come to mind. They tried everything, take it all apart and put it back together, examine the posts with a loop, adjust spring tension, install lighter springs, add/remove layers of cork and/or teflon, etc ... nothing seemed to work. I came to the conclusion most of the klunking and popping was ME just being "ham-handed" and too heavy on the keys. Interestingly, it's not nearly as prevalent on my Opus and barely distinguishable ... of course, that horn's hardware history is another topic altogether. Overall, not that big a deal; as long as my horn is in top repair it's never been audible on a recording. v/r Ken
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-21 22:36
One possibility that comes to mind is that the pad holders might be heavier than ones that don't klunk.....
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Author: Heidi
Date: 2003-01-21 23:15
I am right with you on that problem. On my Yamaha instruments, the klunkiness is a non-issue, until you play it for a while and needs to be readjusted. I just got mine tightened up and it plays beautifully and without the annoying clacks anytime I play. so it is possible!:)
Heidi
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Author: Jean
Date: 2003-01-22 02:14
As the owner of two Rossis I can tell you you are right. The key mechanism on these two instruments is amazingly smooth and quiet. No cliky keys on recordings.
Jean
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-01-22 10:51
It is all to do with three factors:
1. Precisely adjusted pivots - minimal 'play'.
2. Appropriate lubrication.
3. Very important - sensible choice of soft, silencing materials at linkages and key stops. Cork, leather, and old-type, 'squishy' felt are often NOT appropriate.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-01-22 12:47
What about this thought, guys? My repairman placed one of the Buffet key clamps on the lower joint for storage, the little gadget that holds the B/E key down and thus holds the lower pads in place during storage. Since then I've noticed the same sound you're talking about when I use this key. The notes respond beautifully now, that is they're there instantly when required. Would the sound be generated, then, because the pads are so accustomed to being molded around the tone holes that they sit too solidly and make noise as the key comes down? I've considered taking the key clamp off for a spell just to allow the pads to inflate a little. Does this make sense?
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-22 13:14
It's amazing that the sound doesn't seem to get picked up in recordings. I used to think it was a simple matter of adjustment, but now I am beginning to think it's a design thing. It seems those bottom two keys "travel" more in order to close. I've played clarinets that did not have this problem, so I know it is possible to acheive a smooth action.
And, Brenda, I certainly would take that key clamp off unless you're transporting your instrument. There's no need for it in normal day to day usage. Although I don't think that's the problem with your klunking sound.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-22 14:08
To add to Gordon's fine response:
1) I've found much of the noise at the lower joint (as well as on the upper and lower 'ring' stacks, etc.) to be caused by too much DIAMETRAL clearance between the key tube and the pivot (or rod) screw at one or both ends of the key tube -- this causes the key to rock imperceptibly and actually bang against the screw when the player presses the key (thus applying torque to the key). A partial solution is to take up the AXIAL gap as Gordon suggested, but the best solution is to 'crimp' (or 'swedge') the end(s) of the key tube to shrink it down over the screw until it can just barely rotate with minimal friction.
2) The best material I've found so far for shimming out axial slop is very thin Teflon (PTFE) sheet --- very slippery and reasonably resistant to tearing. But again, swedging is the better long-term solution to axial slop.
3) On some typically noisy keys (e.g. the r.h. pinky Ab/Eb key and the l.h. C#/G# key) it often helps to substitute a softer felt bump stop for the more traditional and harder cork slab.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-01-22 22:39
It is inevitable with the Boehm clarinet design that there is going to be some key noise in the linkages. A repairer should silence these as a matter of course.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-01-23 02:25
I'd rather have clunky than mushy. Have you ever picked up an old clarinet where you couldn't be quite sure when you had pushed down hard enough . . . because the keys never seemed to hit bottom? Had one once. Bad clarinet . . . very bad.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-01-23 11:13
Some random thoughts:
The noise of the 'slap' of a pad CLOSING is quite different from the other mechanical noises discussed.
Using key clamps permanently compresses the felt around the tone hole rim, and hence increases slap. Compressed felt decompresses very little when the force is relaxed.
Key clamps should definitely not be necessary if pads are well aligned with tone holes. This does not mean a mushy feel. A mushy feel is when alignment is poor.
The gentle 'pop' (euphemism for mild slap!) of a well adjusted pad closing may well assist in the attack of a note.
Some pad felts are much harder than others, and hence slap more.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-23 19:01
I'm always amazed at the technical knowledge on this board. It's not just the sound of the key mechanism/pads that I dislike--it's the "travel distance" of the lower right hand keys. They aren't equal to the left hand side and I'm sure there's a way to make a better key-action. The Selmer Signatures I've tried are better at this, but they're all so stuffy that the tone on the R-13 has always won out in the end.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-23 19:44
You are correct, Brenda. A properly adjusted and regulated clarinet should have a good feel all around. The keys should have equal travel(pad height clearance), and spring tension. Individual players might like some variation from this but, generally, key travel and touch(feel) should be fairly equal overall for that instrument.
The worst offenders are probably what you pointed out in your original post - the big lower keys. There's more room for 'play' to develop in the pivots, linkages and silencers than in the shorter and smaller lightweight keys.
Pivots and hinge screws should fit well so they can be adjusted to eliminate excessive play. Regardless, whether it's an inexpensive student model or a top-o'-the-line pro horn, the goal is to make that instrument as mechanically sound, effortless and quiet to play as possible. A competent tech can do this.
Once the instrument is correctly adjusted, whether it's brand new or just overhauled, it can then be modified to suit the individual if there's a particular need to do so. Most folks I know who get their hands on a properly adjusted instrument don't want anything changed :]
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-23 19:54
Ron, if I ever get ahold of one that is properly balanced I'll hang onto it. At least you have confirmed what I have always believed--it is possible!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-23 20:32
It's not only possible, Brenda, it should be the NORM Anything else makes the horn 'not right' and it needs to be corrected before leaving the shop, at least among the techs I hang out with.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-23 21:03
Ron, you're absolutely correct that in an ideal world, all clarinets regardless of price would be correctly adjusted, regulated and balanced. But remember a few things:
(a) Setting up a clarinet 'just so' is a very time-consuming, laborious process that can only be partly automated --- even today much of the task can only be done by a human-type person --- and the larger clarinets (anything with plateau-type mechanisms) take three times as long to set up as soprano clarinets.
(b) Even a perfectly-regulated clarinet will eventually go out of regulation in some ways, because of wear, slow bending of the keys, mechanical damage if the owner is careless, etc. So Brenda's perfect clarinet, even if found, will only be perfect for a limited time.
I don't believe it's cost-effective for manufacturers of student (and probably even intermediate-level) clarinets to do such time-consuming setup --- if they did, then yes, finicky buyers such as yourselves would appreciate their efforts, but most buyers would be turned away by the extra $100-$200 (I'm guessing) that the manufacturers would have to charge to cover the extra labor! It all comes down to economics, after all. I will concur, however, that any new clarinet marketed as a "professional" instrument should be properly set up in every way prior to sale.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-23 22:27
You are correct, Dave, and I agree with most of what you say. Certainly, there is no such thing as a Perfect Clarinet. But we can get pretty close. All instruments eventually get out of adjustment from normal use. And larger horns usually take more time to fix. Right on.
I really don't find that it takes a lot of extra time to do the job right though, the first time, whether we're talking about a new instrument or an overhaul. If the corks are the right thicknesses, the keys are 'tightened' (swedged if necessary) and the pads are seated correctly, it doesn't require a lot of extra tinkering to get it to go together right. You may need to bend a key or a cup slightly - but not much, unless it's been damaged. The pad clearances will then be right with little noticeable play in any of the 'linkages'. It'll feel solid yet move freely with no clunkiness. If not, then some adjustment to cork thinkness may be needed. This procedure applies to all instruments, student and pro alike - no exceptions. Pro horns, in general, will stay adjusted longer (and sound somewhat better:) than cheaper ones do.
I've seen new horns (Buffets, sadly) right out of the shipping crate that need a bit of tweaking before they can be displayed for sale. The store owner isn't happy when he has to fix 'em to sell 'em and that may be due to modern mechanization. Some makers use ultra-sound to seat pads and machines to put sticky-back corks on, so we know that some of the human touch is going by the way. The extra work to correct 'mistakes' the machines make needs to be dealt with somewhere along the line - whether it's a student or pro instrument. It can't leave the store unless it's working -- right?
I hope we're not drifting too far off topic here. I mean, I also don't like klunky keys... anywhere. They just don't feel good and they're a distraction to the fun of making music. We should strive, whether we're into fixing our own instruments or helping others, to eliminate the problem; and do it as close to right as possible.
Finally, I guess your initial response is quite correct, Dave - I'm looking for an ideal world [of yesteryear? Yeah, I think so too]. Anyway, I often do spend an extra half hour or so, but the instruments that leave my bench feel good... for a year or two anyway....
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-24 00:30
ron b wrote:
> The store owner isn't happy when he has to fix 'em to
> sell 'em and that may be due to modern mechanization. Some
> makers use ultra-sound to seat pads and machines to put
> sticky-back corks on, so we know that some of the human touch
> is going by the way. The extra work to correct 'mistakes' the
> machines make needs to be dealt with somewhere along the line -
> whether it's a student or pro instrument.
Nah, it ain't the machines - machines make far fewer mistakes than humans.
However, it cost time and money for the humans that need to set up and monitor the machines ...
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-24 00:57
Hahaha
Machines make way fewer mistakes than people do, that's true. Very good point, Mark. They're also super-fast and tireless.
However, machines also don't seem to have the capacity yet to monitor themselves so they correct their mistakes when they do make them. Only people do that :] How else do those bum horns slip through and wind up in my friend's store? Shoddy Quality Control inspectors? Well, anyway, tweaking 'em keeps him busy if not out of trouble - hahahahaha.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-01-24 01:04
Perhaps a parallel can be found in the auto industry. Some years back, Detroit autos had a poor reputation and a good bit of "make-ready" was necessary before they could be sold. Even then, the new owner made a checklist of things that needing fixing by the dealer when they brought it back for servicing.
Detroit's autos have gotten quite a bit better, but it happened because quality-conscious foreign companies were kicking their collective rears. So Detroit learned how to implement quality systems and build a decent automobile. But I believe the quality movement found a more welcome home in Detroit than it did in the established instrument manufacturing industry.
(Begins highly opinionated tirade now . . . )
In general, I have never felt that clarinet makers cared about answering emails, telephone inquiries, etc. They are simply not customer-focused. They apparently don't realize that every contact is a potential customer, there to be impressed or turned off by their response (or lack thereof). I haven't had any contact with Yamaha or Yanagisawa (saxes), but I'd be willing to bet they treat their contacts better than Buffet, Leblanc, or Selmer. If I'm right, I predict they will continue to grow in market share until the one day Buffet, Leblanc, and Selmer realize that their very existence is threatened. Like Detroit . . . all over again.
(Tirade over . . . descends from soapbox.)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-24 16:13
Everyone seems to enjoy the personal attention a clarinet can get from a good set-up. It's just hard to find these days without spending the $400.00 extra for the Brannens to do it up right. And, few shops have techs who really care about the instrument. It's sad but true that more and more people are only interested in getting through the day and getting their paycheck than taking pride in their craft. I guess I'm getting old.
Fred's analysis of the automobile industry is correct. The 70s GM cars were awful and everyone raced off and bought Japanese and German autos (including myself). But, the last few years have been good for GM cars and even I've gone back to them. It's because of set up and service and a desire to improve quality.
I stopped recommending Leblanc Opuses a year or so ago when their quality seemed to take a nosedive. We're watching Buffet pretty closely these days.
I still yearn for that properly balanced instrument with the smooth key action, wonderful tone and deep satisfaction. Sigh.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-24 17:36
I know this thread is probably dead, Brenda (as he ascends Fred's vacated soapbox).
For whatever it's worth though, I launched a thread several weeks ago about why some techs charge more for 'pro' instrument work and what's the reasoning for it. After all, the work is the same - you either get it to work right or you don't. The scale was tipped in my favor I think, that the rate should be the same for all. There were strong arguements for paying a higher amount for entrusting their horn into the hands of a 'professional' tech. Don't get me wrong. Techs earn their money. It takes lots of skill and dedication and knowledge to become proficient at fixing musical instruments correctly. And one must be cautious to avoid the 'butchers' who are among us.
I have an acquaintance who is a tech and owns his own music store. When he was starting out, many years ago, he advertised some reconditioned horns for $XX.xx in the local classifieds. Nothing, not even a phone call. Couple of weeks later same thing, but this time with a price tag of $XXX.xx and sold every last one within a week. No particular point to this story and I'm sure it's been told and re-told in many different ways. Some people just believe that if it costs more it's better, I guess.
I have nothin against 'high end' shops or their work other than I still can't understand how someone will only touch pro horns, charge way over the 'going rate' for the service and expect me to believe it's a better deal or better quality than any other skilled tech who services everyone's horns, at a reasonable rate, and does a good job.
I'm talking about inexpensive student horns, not cheap junk (I won't work on those either): But the principle is that pro clarinets do not differ that much from student ones to warrant the difference some shops charge for working on them. The time and materials factor is the same for both.
(decends from Fred's soapbox, strolls off into fading sunset.... )
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-24 18:14
Ron B,
This is off-topic I realize, but I can believe your story about the guy who couldn't sell a single clarinet at a low price, but merely raised the prices and then sold 'em all. I've been advertising low-priced clarinets right here on this site's classifieds for a couple of years now, and have not sold A SINGLE ONE from the ads on woodwind.org (ex-sneezy). As an experiment, I'm going to raise my prices significantly and test your theorem! I'll keep you posted on the results......
To get back 'on thread', I can understand why, if I were in the catbird's seat as apparently the Brannens are, they would choose only to work on high-end horns --- hell, it's easier to work on them! They generally have fewer problems to begin with than cheaper horns -- less slop, better-quality materials, no brittle metal that breaks when you try to bend it back to proper shape, etc. etc. Must be nice to be able to pick and choose one's jobs... And besides, the owner of a $2500 clarinet is more likely to be able and willing to pay for a $500 Brannen job, than the owner of a $300 clarinet, right? Brenda, I understand your wish that everyone would always do their best out of pride, but the fact is, people gotta make a living, and nobody (except maybe the Brannens??) gets rich doing clarinet repairs --- as I wrote before, it takes a LOT of time to do everything right, and time is money, and money puts food on the table.........Just like car manufacturers have to build to price points, musical instrument manufacturers and even repair techs have to limit what they do, to what they can make at least a small profit on. Otherwise they go bankrupt, 'pride in craft' notwithstanding.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-24 19:46
Good points, Dave, and I agree. I usually find myself doing a bit more than I anticipate and not charging extra. Some horns almost fix themselves and I coast home. It pretty much averages out at the end of the year and everyone's equal. There's a certain minimum we *must* charge - or we're out of business.
You might enjoy this; My friend also had some total junk horns, instruments that would be impossible to ever get more than the sound of rushing air out of. They weren't even decent scrap. He sold them all as do-it-yourself 'art objects'. One fella actually got a trashed saxophone to make a sound and he was so proud of himself he came back to the store and bought a playable reconditioned one. So my friend started his business on a few rebuilt horns, some decorative 'art things' and lots of good will. He's been thriving for more than forty years.
He's also know amoung techs around here as the one you go to when you're at the end of your resources, you've tried everything and you just can't fix it. He'll invariably show you how
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