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Author: Cindy
Date: 2003-01-21 03:17
Can one become a professional clarinetist on a 3.5 reed? Or is there some unwritten law that the harder the reed, the better the player? I have been getting a lot better on a 3.5 and have really nice tone, but my teacher is pushing me to a 4 because I need it. Can one become good on a 3.5? I relaize I should listen to my teacher, but I am just curious, because it's really frustrating finally having really nice tone and decent tonguing then being on a reed where both are horrible.
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Author: chuck
Date: 2003-01-21 03:23
Cindy: There is a saying, "different strokes for different folks". If it works for you, stay with it. Chuck
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Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-01-21 03:34
My undergrad clarinet professor is a former student of Peter Simenauer, Assoc. Principal of NY Phil. According to her, Mr. Simonauer told her that he played on 3 1/2 reeds.
It all depends on your mouthpiece, your embouchure, and your sound concept.
Best of luck,
Mitch King
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Author: Paul
Date: 2003-01-21 03:43
I'm not sure your teacher knows what he/she is doing. Maybe there's more facts we don't know about. Paul
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-21 03:47
In my un-humble opinion, Cindy (after much input/output among Pros and Cons: with careful contemplation, and years of fond associations with folks in the business)...
>Can one become a professional clarinetist on a 3.5 reed?
...YES.
>Or is there some unwritten law that the harder the reed, the better the player?
...NO.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2003-01-21 05:22
The strength of the reed should match (inversely) the tip opening of the mouthpiece. Narrow tip--hard reed. Open tip--soft reed.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-01-21 07:15
It all depends on the facing of your mouthpiece. But yes- I'm a professional clarinetist, and I'm currently using no.3 reeds!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-01-21 07:27
One very fine player in Los Angeles uses # 2 1/2 Vandorens. I've never found a #4 that I could use on any mouthpiece that I would use. Good luck!
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-01-21 08:31
Has the teacher explained the actual benefits? If the teacher was pushing you from 2.5 to 3 it might be a different matter.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-01-21 08:44
There is absoloutely no reason why your teacher should dictate what strength reed you play on. It is such a personal thing, and if you feel comfortable on a 3.5, stay on it.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-01-21 12:17
Here's my experience with reed strength. I've been using #4 Zonda Classico for a long time. However I was struggling to be able to play f or ff, could never do it, and the suggestion was made to increase the reed strength. I didn't want to because my jaw was already getting sore. Instead I switched mouthpieces from a Vandoren M13 to a B40. Now the same #4 reeds give a LARGE sound that can rattle my eardrums. Since I didn't have to increase the strength of reed, the same reeds will allow me to play the quiet parts of the music delicately and then increase volume and intensity at will.
There's a time when a reed is too soft for your needs. But by experimenting with these yourself you should be able to tell the difference in sound quality. You don't want a reed that's so hard for you that you strain to produce a sound, or it sounds like it's hissing or it's fuzzy sounding. Sometimes a little fine sanding down will do the trick, enough to make a hard reed usable. But certainly do a lot of experimenting with mouthpieces and reeds and see what set up suits your needs.
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-01-21 12:28
Cindy,
I never managed to become a professional on 3.5 reeds. I couldn't manage anything harder than a 3.
Of course it depends on your mouthpiece but don't let anyone tell you that you've got to go harder as you get better.
If I play on cane reeds I use regular Vandoren 2.5 although at the moment I'm using Legere synthetic ones strength 3.
jez
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Author: Mark Sloss
Date: 2003-01-21 13:47
Bil Jackson plays on 2X4s, David Hattner plays on wet egg noodles. Both get spectacular sounds and have incredibly precise articulation. I play a Gonzalez 4.25 because I like the density of the cane, but I cut them down to play more like a 3.5. The appropriate strength is driven by your equipment and your technique.
I have personally pushed students to harder reeds when it becomes clear that something about their playing is being hampered by the softer reed that cannot be fixed with air or embouchere. At least give your teacher a hearing on the subject. If it sets you back in terms of your playing, I'm sure he/she will put you back on the 3.5 in a hurry.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-01-21 14:28
Perhaps what your teacher is you toward is more depth and fullness in your sound. A harder reed has more 'spine' and should be able to support more lower frequency sound (the 2x4 approach).
If you are playing a long facing, close tip mouthpiece, then your reed probably doesn't have a long excursion to generate lower frequencies and needs a strong impulse from the reed itself.
If you can play a reed comfortably, and feel little strain while covering your range then it is adjusted properly.
If you're stuggling at the lower extremes (mp and lower) then the reed is probably not bending over the mouthpiece curve properly.
If you can't reach the upper extremes (mp and lower) then the reed tip is probably too stiff to vibrate readily along the last few mm.
Have a look at the reed adjustment guides online and in the texts offered by the Woodwind sponsors. That's an important tool for your quest.
Me, I have no orchestral aspirations, and went after an all around mouthpiece and reed combination that doesn't require constant strain to stay on pitch or cover a given dynamic... a balanced reed.
It's like golf or tennis, when you hit the sweet spot with your gear, it is no longer your focus... expressing the music is!
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-21 14:38
What Mark says is true, I play very soft reeds. My teacher played reasonably soft reeds. Clark Brody played very soft reeds.
I am an extreme case, I suppose. I have yet to play a lighter setup than my own. Most other clarinet players can't even produce a sound on it, they close it up immediately (for those who keep score, I play on 3s of various brands). But the plus for me is the gradations of dynamics I can achieve between absolute zero and mp (which is a very important range of dynamics that far too many players have no interest in).
It actually requires greater development of the embochure to really play a light setup, which is why some people just slap those boards on there and work so hard.
Now don't get me wrong, Bil Jackson, Ricardo Morales, etc. have amazing sounds and they are able to get huge volume without a big change in character (which is much more difficult on a light setup). And somehow they can play extremely softly on their setups.
Daniel Bonade made, for me, the most sensible argument against super hard reed setups. He pointed out that, especially in the low register, a quick diminuendo will result in a HUGE tendency toward extreme sharpness (whereas it still goes sharp with a soft reed but not as much and is more controllable).
As a teacher, I would encourage young players to play a lighter setup. There is no need for the extreme loud volumes that the players I mentioned above are required to produce. And you really have to learn great control of the entire interior embochure. If you need more resistence later you can move up in strengh/resistance.
Just a few thoughts based on my experience.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-21 15:26
Gregory Smith (Chicago Symphony Orchestra Second Clarinetist extrordianire) says that "most clarinetists use reeds that are too hard" and that you should avoid faiing prey to the "hard reed syndrome." BTW, come to think on this, my old college clarinet teacher used to say pretty much the same thing. I play on reeds that are around 3.0 to 3.5 with a Chicago Kaspar #14, and can play loud or soft throughout the entire practical range of my R13s (low E to double high C)
The important thing is not how strong your reed is, but the end result--your sound and musical expressiveness. If your present reeds are allowing you to be all that you can be, IMNSHO, there is no need to change.
"Reed strength is as reed strength does"--Forest Gump (if he played clarinet)
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Author: Bob
Date: 2003-01-21 17:40
If it were me I'd ask the teacher why it is that he thinks I need a harder reed. Years ago there was a macho thing among guys based on heresay that one should strive to play harder reeds.
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Author: brenda siewert
Date: 2003-01-21 18:20
You need to use whatever suits you best. I've played with many professionals around the world who use #3 reeds. One Russian clarinetist I played with used a Vandoren V-12 2 1/2. He was excellent. You might be surprised at a lot of things that don't fit within most teacher's "rules" on playing clarinet. You do whatever works. If it makes your tone better and your intonation and scale are good--don't worry about the strength of the reed. If you can't reach the high notes without the harder reed--or if you can't project, get the harder reed.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-01-21 18:42
I get my best sound with a 3 1/2 reed. I can play # 4 reeds but I go for the best sound. # 3 reeds have a more mellow sound and are easier to play.
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2003-01-21 20:26
Only you know what strength you are playing on. if anyone asks tell them it a #5 and really impress them.
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Author: Fyrespryte
Date: 2003-01-22 10:55
Try smudging out the reed strength number on your reed and just tell your teacher its a #4,anything for a quiet life.
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Author: CrLag
Date: 2003-01-23 06:52
In my opinion, you need to use what is most comfortable for you. I spent about 4 years trying to play 3.5's and 4's (V12's). I was able to achieve a high level of technical ability, winning awards and full scholarships to music schools/conserv., but I was never personally happy with the sound, or my MUSICAL output. I just played how I was told and tried my hardest to make the music "my own". Furthermore, my jaw has yet to forgive me due to the intense pressure I subjected it to. After being fed up with the factory tone quality, I did extensive listeing and research on reeds. I settled on Vandoren V12 2.5's. (3's in the severe winter months). I am much happier with my sound and I am able to achieve more tonal colors and dynamic range. When I hear someone playing on hard reeds, I find their performances quite impressive, but it is merely that. A show of endurance and a lack of musicality. (Not entirely accurate - I believe Franklin Cohen is one of the most expressive musicians in this era, and I am sure there are others out there), but anyway...
Some hard reed advocates say that harder reeds give a much better tone quality, (which we are guided here in the U.S. to believe is the desired tonal ideal). So I tried an experiment, and used my 2.5 V12's in a grad lesson (without my teacher knowing). After that lesson my teacher asked my if I was still using my same mouthpiece and that my sound was "extremely warm and beautiful". To sum up: A hard reed supporter congratulated me on my sound - using a 2.5. Sneaky, I know, but I am not one to fall into a trap of following the herd. Everyone is different and you need to play on equipment that will get you the sound you hear in your head.
While I am ranting, bear with me, I want to know what others think of this reasoning. In the U.S. we use french instruments to achieve a certain sound. When we are working on our sound - at least I was told to study recordings of Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer, etc. The German School. Seems odd to me, use french instruments and specifications to achieve a german sound. I have always been told to stear away from English recordings, but does anyone out there listen to Emma Johnson. I dont think I have ever heard a more "singing" clarinetist out there. Her interpretations are brilliant!!!!
One more thing, getting back to the orginal topic. If someone tells you that if you are uncomfortable using harder reeds that you must not be utilizing your breath correctly, get a second opinion. I am positive I do not have major breathing issues. I study Alexander Technique and am good friends with many vocalists who have coached me for about 3 years on maximum use of the lungs and air control/speed. (I believe these vocalists are breathing correctly due to the success of their studio history, with singers at Berlin Staatsoper, Chicago Lyric, Houston Grand, Metropolitan Opera, Cincy Opera, and N.Y. City Opera.) Maximizing your breathing potential does not mean cramming yourself with as much air as possible to get a piece of lumber to vibrate against some hard rubber!!!! If you make sure you are breathing low (not raising your shoulders), into your back, and feeling the "gentle antagonism", you are on the right track with your breathing. Here is a test - bend at the waist and breathe in like a yawn. Being bent over forces the air into your back - This will give you the feeling of your waist expanding from all around and it should help you solve some questions if you have them. If you are doing this and making sure that you are pushing air through the instrument, not just into it - that should help with any air speed problems. With this in mind you should be able to find what suits you best, be it hard or soft, I just hope that everyone has a musical goal in mind when they choose their reed equipment. Another side comment - if you use a piece of lumber for a reed you are no doubt going to build unnecessary tension from it, starting (probably) in your abdominal muscles, which will spread through your body all the way to your fingertips. Tension is music's worst enemy - shouldn't that be an alarm to people?
I once read a quote from Dorothy DeLay - "To be a great musician, you must trust yourself."
...how can you trust yourself if you dont trust your equipment?
All of these things are just some of my opinions that guide me as a musician - take what you want from it, if anything, and combine it with other ideas you have heard or thought of, and most importantly - be musical.
Here are some soft reed players that I feel you will benefit listening to: Emma Johnson, Harold Wright. It is some of the most expressive musicality and maravelous technique out there. Definitely get Harold wright doing "Sheperd on the Rock" with Benita Valente. It doesn't get much better than that.
The benefits to studying recordings is insurmountable - I have about 200 cd's of clarinet artists - Brymer, Kell, Johnson, de Peyer, Cohen, King, Portal, Sabine and Wolfgang Meyer, Paul Meyer, Boeykins, Marriner, Leister, Shifrin, Combs, Soames, Stoltzman, Carbonare, Frost, Kam, Collins, Lluna, Verdehr, to name a few. I have studied their recordings forwards and backwards, up and down and sideways. I highly suggest getting out and listening to as many players as possible.
Ok, last thing, for real this time: It would be cool to find out what people's frame size, head/throat size, and mouth cavity size are in correlation to what size reed they use. Personally I have a small frame but am 6'. I have a very thin neck, small head size, but have large resonating space in my mouth. I wonder how all of this effects are reed choices and tonal characteristics? I have my ideas, but its have no time really to research it right now. Anyone out there with any research? k - I am done.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-01-23 07:27
"I was told to study recordings of Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer, etc. The German School."
Using hard reeds doesn't guarantee that you get a "German sound". Karl Leister uses VERY soft reeds!
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2006-11-14 23:59
It depends on your mouth piece too eh?
My teacher uses 3.5's and he plays in the Symphony Orchestra in my City (Vancouver, BC)
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-11-15 00:16
Quote:
Karl Leister uses VERY soft reeds!
Really? HOW soft?
I was just listening to his Hindemith Sonata ('92 recording) last night- what tone!!!
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2006-11-15 00:16)
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Author: packrat
Date: 2006-11-15 00:44
I agree with those of you who say play what feels comfortable both for sound and articulation. I would also suggest playing in different situations. Do you project well in those situations with the softer reeds. Years ago (talking 35 or so) my teacher had us playing on German faced Vandoren 5's (he was the principal clarinetist the orchestra where I lived). He felt that the heart of the reed cane was not thick enough and would have us buy the 5's and then cut them down to our individual specifications. We were probably cutting them down to about 3.5-4's. But by the time I graduated from college he had us buying Morre reeds (which we had to get by mail order) that had a thick heel (sort of like 56 Rue le Pic) and then he suggested we use no harder than 2.5-3's.
By using the harder reeds we learned about reed adjustment. Since I don't know where you are as a student I'm speculating here, but maybe your teacher wants you to learn to fine tune your reeds as well as increase your projection. l think you should discuss it with him. A good teacher will explain his/her reasoning, because it will give you perspective into what he wants you to learn and you'll learn faster. You can always try and if it doesn't work out back down to the softer reed.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-11-15 01:27
anyone know if cindy ever made it to professional level? after almost four years (when she first posted her question), she's probably playing on a #7 reed.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2006-11-16 00:00
I'm sure she made it if she uses really-really hard reeds. I've been using #5 Vandoren "Rue de Plywood" with my 0.01-mm tip, 27-mm facing Zinner mpc (there's actually no curve ... the mouthpiece is entirely flat) and my tone is so dark I can't read my music. But Boston Records still hasn't called back.
Bill.
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-11-16 00:13
Childsplay! Why, when we were kids, our dad made us practice 25 hrs. a night on a shawm carved from a rotten broomstick- with 2 #5 Rue de Plywoods duct-taped together! NO mouthpiece! ALBERT SYSTEM!
If we cracked a note of Brahms First Sonata (with dear ol' mum playing the piano part on ocarina) he'd run us over with a steamroller, etc.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2006-11-16 00:20)
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Author: k_leister
Date: 2006-11-16 02:21
Karl Leister does use very soft reeds indeed. He used to play the Whitemaster Strength 21/2-3. Now he is playing V12 and Rue Lepec 21/2 - he uses a special German mouthpiece that has a wide table for French reeds.
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Author: packrat
Date: 2006-11-16 12:57
Oops! I'm new to bboard posting. Sorry I missed the date of the original post - I'm still learning. Thought I was helping someone. I just won't post anymore, just read and learn.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-11-16 13:26
Well, it was nice to hear from Karl anyway.
Bob Draznik
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2006-11-16 13:31
Thanks very much, Mr. Leister! Your playing is a huge inspiration to me.
www.johnmcgann.com
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