 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: RonD
Date: 2003-01-19 20:10
Is there some mechanical or electronic way to determine the relative strength of reeds?
What makes a reed a number 3 or some other strength? Opinion or science?
How do manufactures grade their products?
What makes a Vandoren reed a #3 and a reed identified as a #3 by another manufacturer softer or harder?
Sorry for all the questions but I havent any idea why idenically marked reed are not identical.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-19 20:22
There's no universally recognized "standard reed strength" gauge - each manufacturer of reeds uses their own mechanical gauge to determine reed strength.
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-19 20:50
Ditto to Mark's answer, but there's a gadget in the WW/BW catalog, in the reed section, that "measures" reed strength. It's called a Reed-O-Meter and you can find it on page 78 of the current WW/BW catalog.
I'm sure it is not set to a "correct universal standard," but I know someone who has one, and what it enabled him to do is to set his own standard for knowing, precisely, what strength reed suits him.
Example:
If he has a reed that works very well for him, and it's a Vandoren #3.5, but the machine says it's a #2.5, it doesn't matter, because, within reasonable parameters, then most reeds that measure 2.5 in the machine, will work better for him than one that is stamped #2.5, but the machine says is a #1.5.
I've tried it and it's pretty accurate, when used in that way.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-01-20 03:59
We have many problems related to standards in the clinical chemistry world and there are standards agencies both in this country (National Institute of Science and Technology), in the Eu (EU Standards Bureau), the World Health Organization, etc.. All of the standards must be traceable to a mass unit or a recognized, quantifiable, standardized measurement unit. Until laboratory tests were standardized against a recognized standard, and the characteristics of a given test method were defined, physicians had no reliable way to access laboratory tests between laboratories doing the measurements. Reed strength or the deformation characteristics of the reed are only a gross measurement of the vibrational qualities of that given reed. I have been investigating various ideas which include measuring the vibration of a reed using a standardized piazo electric element pulse and then acurately measuring the frequency of vibration at the tip plane of the reed. This process could be automated at the assembly line.
It would mean a whole new scale of values but one based on a standardized basis. Think of the old measurement scales that we have discarded e.g. moving from the sundial to mechanical movements, through the frequency of a quartz crystal to the decay rate of atoms to measure time. We someday could be buying reeds that have a given frequency range within a box or individual reeds with a know frequency. This process of course does not predict the many other characteristics of reeds which make them a good reed or a bad reed but would limit one variable in the mix and remove the differences in numbered reed strength between brands. Food for thought!
The Doctor
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2003-01-20 04:19
Reed streagnth is only relative at the time the cane is cut in the manufacturing process. Then of course from the moment it is cut to the moment it arrives to you this piece of cane has then had to deal with tremendous atmospheric disturbances and humidity change. this can lead to either it remaining the same or getting hard or softer.
I would not hesitate to add a few things about reeds for your own personal use. the shape of your oral cavity will defitely affect your choice of reed. You will or should be able to figure out through play testing whether or not a reed is too hard or soft. with practice this will become alot easier.
Moost professional players will adjust their reeds according to their own personal inclinations. generally among a box of reeds one will find a few that work well and maybe the majority entirely unplayable...this leads most pros to using a reed knife in order to save money and time.
the tip of the reed is usually where I test by first of all actually physically pushing the tip backward and forward. then I try play testing and if hard I then begin the process of removing only fine dust of cane from the playing part of the reed. As always test only after you have removed cane from the area where the reed resists...the trick is to find these spots by visually looking.
On much of the Vandoren cane I tend to remove cane from the upper right hand side of the cane...I also find the rails cane be a cause for resitance and balance this by removing light amounts of cane on bulging rails...this cane be disastrous if overdone.
Harold Wright of the Boston Symphony told me never to polish the flat part of the reed until you have achieve the right resistance for the mouthpiece. the main reason being is this sealing process can cause the playing front part of reed to thicken up from even the slightest of friction from "polishing". Never rub the playing part of the reed to seal or think this will improve the reed. this I feel deystroys the reed!
Listen closely for an even and easy speech of the entire scale. this means you should be able to go to double high "c" with ease and purity of sound. If you sound airy and dull then you may have what is called an unstable reed...in fact some reeds with more adjustment get worse..I call these "bogeys". generally I put them away and wait for a rainy day in a few years ...
Most new cane is pretty green so this means more adjustment trouble than most....if you want to sound good and have excellent reeds it is a good idea to "stockpile" some boxes for a later day...say 5 or 10 years. Yellow cane really works much better and this may be the only way to get truly consistent reeds...
Best Wishes
D Dow
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-20 04:20
He has had much opportunity to experiment, but he frequents several music stores (the same ones I do) that often have open boxes of reeds that he can just use one to check how a new brand of reeds might "measure up" on the machine.
Although, at times, when "experimenting" with new brands of reeds, he has had to purchase a box (or a couple of reeds) he thinks will match what he is looking for, just to get to "test" them.
Some of the time, if he runs across a store that has an open box, either of what he's looking for or something he'd like to try, if he tests one and it doesn't work for him, as long as he didn't use it to play, they just set it aside for use in testing some instrument later on. Of course, if he uses it, it either gets thrown out or it goes home with him.
These music stores will often provide one or two reeds to an established client to use in testing an instrument, if needed. Since they also purchase used instruments, they also need to have some reeds and mouthpieces available for store use.
Nice of them, actually, but this is one of the several reasons we shop at these places.
We make a point of spending money there and if something is $20.00 less elsewhere, we still buy it from them. They appreciate the loyalty and show their appreciation by ocassionally indulging us, like with the reeds.
We do generally bring our own reeds, etc., but there are times when we'd like to try a harder, softer or different brand of reed with a new mouthpiece or instrument, etc., so they are willing to accomodate us by providing one out of an open box.
When he has to buy a box, sight unseen, he usually buys the first box of reeds (or a couple of reeds, if available) according to the established manufacturers' chart. Once he tests the first ones and gets an idea of whether they run soft or hard, according to his personal standard, he can usually pick the next ones fairly accurately.
If, for instance, he buys a box of Vandorens, which run, both, soft and hard in the same box, he can test them and come up with a few he knows will work for him and uses them, usually to good advantage. The rest, he'll either re-work slightly, if too hard, or give away, if too soft and he doesn't want to trim the tips, etc.
One thing we have done, is share reeds out of a box. If he comes up with some reeds that would suit me, he gives them to me; when I go to his house I take my new or spare reeds and if we come up with some that would suit him, I give them to him. It works out nicely, for the most part.
Basically, it's not a magical answer to all of everyone's reed problems, but it does give him a better idea of what his reeds are doing once he has established a "pattern" for a particular manufacturer, without having to guess at it.
There's still always some homework involved.
But the great advantage to it is that once he has tested a "perfect" reed that matches his idiosyncrasies and the idiosyncrasies of his mouthpieces and his instruments, he can fairly pick all the ones that are the right strength for him out of a box and check any he has to rework to whatever standard he set for himself through having tested that "perfect" reed first. (Only have to do the initial test once per instrument/mouthpiece, pretty much.)
He can also assign some softer or harder reeds to other mouthpieces/instruments he has, which might require different strengths of reeds to play the way he wants them to play, without all the guesswork and so on.
And I think this is all I can think of about it and it's use, at this time. I hope I made sense and it helps.
I've been seriously thinking about buying one of my own.
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Author: David Dow
Date: 2003-01-20 13:13
Another problem I have seen with "guages" is that especially in the area of measurement-- one guauge may read a totally differnet number from another depending on how it is callibrated. Also, what if the guage loses adjustment>?
I just find it far more easy to just test the reed and judge by the way it responds rather than spending time measuring diameter and thickness. Then I can get down to serious practice. And quickly
...
It is important to de-mystify reed adjustment and simplify what becomes a nightmare for some. Correct embouchure and playing concepts can lead to unhappiness with reeds as well...there are alot of variables....
even then the reed may become incredibly hard after a few days from when you first started playing on it and fealt it was ideal
based on how mature the cane is....THIS CAN HAPPEN ALOT WITH GREEN CANE.
I would not share reeds with any player...
I also know that after a few days of playing on what I thought was the perfect reed it CAN suddenl changes into an impossibly hard or incredibly soft reed...so the whole point of the process should be able to make adjustments as one goes along ...if not life could become incredibly "expensive".
Best regards
DD
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-01-20 14:21
Also, I don't think anyone has commented on the porousness of the reed affecting its strength yet - A friend and I have discovered that Argentinian cane seems to be (on average) more porous than French cane, but when broken in properly, works quite well. For a while now I have found myself using more Zondas than Vandorens. Anyway, the more porous cane *seems* harder and with a dull sound at first, and if oversoaked, is rendered pretty much unplayable. French cane doesn't seem to waterlog as easily, but doesn't last as long as a well-broken-in Argentinian reed. If the Argentinian cane is broken in right, then it seems to outlast and outplay French cane!
Just some observations! :-)
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Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-20 18:19
Mark,
The question was, "Is there some mechanical or electronic way to determine the relative strength of reeds?"
And there is, but it's subjective to the specific machine being used and the user's personal requirements.
As I said, it doesn't solve every problem, and among the problems it doesn't solve are the initial quality of the cane and how changes in changes in temperature, weather or humidity will affect it, but that's true whether you use the machine, or not.
But instead of having to spend the time trying every single reed in every single box, we can eliminate reeds that are too soft or too hard at once and within about one to two minutes per box of ten.
All this machine does is initially measure the relative "hardness" of the reed by it's own standard, which you can apply to what works for you, nothing else.
This part is longer:
David,
You said:
"Another problem I have seen with "gauges" is that especially in the area of measurement-- one gauge may read a totally different number from another depending on how it is calibrated."
It doesn't matter. He is using only one machine and it has been consistent for more than a year now. When I use the same machine to test my reeds, I have my own standards, as they apply to his machine, so its results are strictly subjective. I don't go by his criteria, nor does he go by mine, but both apply individually to the use of the machine.
You said:
"I just find it far more easy to just test the reed and judge by the way it responds rather than spending time measuring diameter and thickness."
This machine does not measure diameter and thickness. You press a button, put the reed in the machine, release the button and it applies a slight pressure on the side of the reed, reading the relative strength it takes to flex the tip ever so slightly. It holds all the reeds in place at the same point and exerts the same amount of pressure on them all, at the same point at the tip.
This takes about ten seconds per reed. He still has to try them out the same way you do, but at least he knows for sure, before he tries them out in an instrument, which reeds are too soft or too hard, which may actually need work in this respect and which might not.
It does save him (and me) quite a bit of time and trouble.
You said:
"Then I can get down to serious practice. And quickly
..."
There is no way you can accurately gauge the *relative hardness* of a whole box of reeds in about 1-1/2 minutes by putting them in the mouthpiece, playing them and evaluating them, at random.
Barring any initial cane quality issues, which can only be determined by trying out each individual reed in an instrument, he can tell you almost immediately which reeds might play well right out of the box with which instrument/mouthpiece combination, which will need adjustment and in which way, and do it with (so far) excellent accuracy. Hard to beat!
You said:
"...even then the reed may become incredibly hard after a few days from when you first started playing on it and felt it was ideal based on how mature the cane is.... THIS CAN HAPPEN ALOT WITH GREEN CANE."
Not much helps with what the cane was before it became a reed and you bought it, or what the reed might become after you play it for a while. This is true no matter which way you choose to test your reeds and no single answer is foolproof. As Doris used to sing, "The future's not ours to see..." Etc.
You said:
"I would not share reeds with any player..."
And neither would I. The reeds we pass on to each other are unused.
He uses harder reeds than I do. Hypothetically: If the machine says a reed is #2 to #3, +/-, I might end up with it, if it says it's #3.5 to #4.5, +/-, he might end up with it.
This saves a lot of time in not having to adjust nearly as many reeds, as we get twice the usual number of "as is" usable reeds out of a box through sharing them in this respect. (Although my experience with Glotin reeds has been close enough to 100%.)
You said:
"I also know that after a few days of playing on what I thought was the perfect reed CAN suddenly change into an impossibly hard or incredibly soft reed...so the whole point of the process should be able to make adjustments as one goes along ...if not life could become incredibly "expensive"."
The machine can tell you, accurately, in ten seconds if a reed has become too hard or too soft.
Besides, I am a woodwinds player, not a clairvoyant. There is no such thing as the perfect anything (for any length of time) in this game, and proper clarinet playing can be an expensive endeavor.
Especially the way many of us do it: I buy a clarinet today, in three months I find a... I buy reeds today, in a week someone tells me about another brand... I buy a mouthpiece today, in six weeks I read about a new one that... And let's not even get into ligatures!
The whole point of the process, to me, is to enjoy my woodwinds playing with the least number of encumbrances and/or difficulties.
If I have to adjust the same reed several times during it's useful life, I'll put it away for another time or throw it away. Reeds are the least expensive of any single item required to play woodwinds, albeit, it's an ongoing expenditure that can add up if you don't take reasonable care of them, but such is life.
Still, of the 114 reeds I am presently using (for 11 instruments I play regularly, both clarinets and saxophones) probably half are somewhere around a year old, while the other half are of various ages. (We have the reed-care issue down pat for our geographical area.)
But if I have to watch every penny I spend on reeds, I would have to quit playing because the stress of it would preclude my deriving much enjoyment from the activity.
My son, Daniel, has been playing several of his reeds for almost six months now, at school. He does this and more, on a regular basis.
Well, it may not be the "perfect" answer to all reed issues, but together with a little (hopefully) intelligent thought, it's what has worked for us, so far.
Peter
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-01-20 19:16
RonD -
For many years, music stores have sold a reed strength tester that flexes the reed tip against a spring. It's white plastic box and goes for about $35. It's totally useless and breaks a lot of reed tips.
Your thumb nail is the best strength tester there is. Hold the butt of the reed in your right hand with your thumb on top, your in index finger on the bottom and the tip facing left and slightly downward. Hold your left thumb nail-up and flex the tip gently against the nail. A few tries will let you recognize the reed's strength.
On the Klarinet board a couple of years ago, I posted a list of things to look for when going through a box of reeds in a music store. Go to
http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/2001/11/000147.txt. These should help you reject the obviously bad ones -- probably 2/3 of those in the box.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-20 19:33
Peter wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> The question was, "Is there some mechanical or electronic way
> to determine the relative strength of reeds?"
Which I answered in my 1st post.
> David,
>
Peter,
I believe that we all understand your point about a reed strength machine, but some of us think that it's not nearly as valuable as you think it is. That's all.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-20 22:11
David Dow said, "Never rub the playing part of the reed to seal or think this will improve the reed. this I feel deystroys the reed".
I am surprised to read you "saying" this--rubbing the vamp is a widely accepted practice to keep a reed from absorbing too much moisture during a performance (thus insuring some long term consistancy) and also, to help keep a reed from drying out during a performance or period of inactivity (multiple measures of rest or use of other clarinet). It works for me, and actually allows my reeds to play better, longer.
As for grading reeds, this is an impossible task given the inconsistant growing properties of cane. The best we can do is to learn to work on our reeds for optimum playing performance and make the best of things. I start with reeds that are one strength too hard, work them down and balance them with a reed knife until playable. With some reeds that are dramtically stiff, I use a Reed Wizard to re-profile them. Usually, I can get playing use out of every V12 that comes out of a box of 4.0s.. Some better than others, but all playable to a lesser or greater extent. I do believe in playing the reed instead of the reed playing me. But to rely on the numbers, or some other device to tell me if the reed is the proper strength, that's garbage!!! Playing is the only test that works with any reliablility.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-01-21 04:33
It is too late and too much has been written to dissect every phrase, but as I indicated somewhere there "could be" an electronic meter (and one exists in my basement in prototype)and would:1) self test against a circuit algorithm to calibrate the electronics, 2) apply a vibration through a piezo electric element with a known voltage, 3) accurately measure the resulting vibration in the plane of the reed tip - convert this into some reed strength value (you would just apply some standard mathematical formula to give you a number) either in arbitrary units or in the actual Hertz.
As with other areas - if the customer, or some standards committee (let's just call it the Reed Police)demands that the characteristics of a product meet certain standards - i.e. some standardized measurement of quality or range of variation then the manufacturers will comply. The power of the marketplace is awesome if it is applied properly.
I understand all (if only I could) the other elements that can change the characteristics of a reed but those cannot be factored into the initial value printed on the unopened box or stamped on the reed.
The Doctor
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