 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Nick
Date: 2003-01-16 17:53
Recently I've realized just how much I love the Mozart concerto. Up until now I never really sat down and listened to it or appreciated what a true masterpiece it really is.
I have heard very few recordings of this piece.
If there were ONE recording that you guys would say is the absolute best done for this piece, what would you say it is? I would like to go out and buy a copy of this on CD, instead of just ripping it off from the library (which often does not have several recordings of the same piece, either).
Thank you!
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-16 18:50
This BB has "been there, done that" many times, but here, neverthelessIMHOonemoretime, is my choice: Robert Marcellus, clarinet, with the Cleveland Orchestra.
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Author: ALOMARvelous12
Date: 2003-01-16 21:29
well i've never heard the marcellus recording, but i can really assume its just perfect by listening to what others say.
however, when it comes to the opening movement, i don't know how anybody could top miltos mumlides and the cologne new philharmonic. i haven't heard anybody talk about them yet, and i think people haven't realized how good of a recording it is. the first movement is available for download at mp3.com and the other two are available for streaming. (although the last two movements didn't impress me as much as the first)
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Author: Mike
Date: 2003-01-17 01:52
Robert Marcellus. There is no other recording. If you want to hear the perfect clarinet tone, just listen to the second movement. It doesn't any better than that.
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Author: Nick
Date: 2003-01-17 02:54
Thank you, everyone, and Ken especially for finding me the link to that topic. I can't believe I managed to look over that one.
I will have to take a good look at finding the Marcellus recording if I can, after hearing what everyone was had to say about it!
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Author: classifan
Date: 2003-01-17 04:06
Sorry to upset the Marcellus fans, but there are very good recordings of the Mozart clarinet concerto from Jack Brymer, Karl Leister, and some others. Personally I don't like Marcellus recording because the sound is a bit too flat and I don't find the performance very enlightening. Just my honest personal opinion. I can't believe there are so many people that just go with the majority's opinion on things like this. Listen to many recordings and decide for yourself.
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Author: Mark Sloss
Date: 2003-01-17 13:18
True there are many other good performances as well, but don't dismiss Marcellus based on the sound of the recording. Most of the prints of this performance in circulation (and who knows, the master might stink too) have a rather veiled sound, so the clarinet doesn't have that last bit of sparkle. You can tell this is the recording and not the artist because the entire orchestra sounds similarly covered.
Let me assure you, and HAT will chime in as well -- I have been across the hall as well as two feet away from Mr. Marcellus when he played and taught, and his sound is not "too flat". Listen to any number of other Cleveland recordings and you will find a very rich, resonant, and clear sound.
Also, Nick did ask for "One" above all others, and a lot of people think of Marcellus'. If you want to participate in the thread, just pick one of your favs and throw it out there. Doesn't have to be the consensus pick. No need to pick on other people's taste.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2003-01-17 14:52
As much as I find Marcellus recording wonderful, I think it is starting to date.
Since his performance, a number of artists have been working on finding the true text of the concerto. The work is written for basset clarinet and as such Marcellus's recording is in my humble opinion not the definitive recording.
I am particularly found of Savid Shifrin's version on Basset Clarinet.
-Sylvain
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Author: George L Smyth
Date: 2003-01-17 17:09
> I am particularly found of David Shifrin's version on Basset Clarinet.
This is my particular favorite, though I admit to not having heard all of the above-mentioned versions.
Cheers -
george
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2003-01-17 17:22
I bought the Marcellus recording soon after it was released 40+ years ago. Still have it. Still love it.
However, I prefer the German system and sound for the Mozart Concerto and Quintet. Of all the fine recordings from east of the Rhine, my favorite remains Alfred Prinz with the Vienna Philharmonic.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-17 17:38
Look, any recording is just a snapshot of how the player(s) felt about the work on the day of the session.
Marcellus was certainly proud of his K622 recording but was also not satisfied with it. It was recorded in just a few hours (when he was in his early 30s, about the same age I am now. . .whoa) and that was that. He was much more proud of the recordings of Schubert and Wagner, etc etc etc.
The ideas of how music of that time period may be performed have changed tremendously since the early 60s when that recording was made. This and other factors do make that particular recording a document of its time.
While George Szell, who bears the majority of the responsibility for the overall structure of that interpretation, was considered a stylish interpreter of Mozart's music in his time, now there are other ideas which also have legitimacy. It doesn't change the greatness of Szell or his music making, it just allows the open-minded person to enjoy other approaches as well.
Now, in terms of clarinet playing, Marcellus's recording is special in many ways. Hopefully I don't need to expound on that.
I heard the man from 3 feet away almost every week for 4 years (during school months, of course). Although I remember well many things he said to me, the MOST VIVID memories of those years are from the days when he had a good reed and felt like demonstrating a little more. That sound was vivid and beautiful in every way up close (and through the door while waiting for lessons too) and the lightness and clarity of the articulation was special.
WHen you hear playing like that close up, it helps more than a thousand verbal explanations, believe me.
First semester of my freshman year, all of us had to learn the 1st clarinet parts of the Brahms symphonies for our lessons (he sometimes did that, assigned everyone the same thing if it was important). The lesson I had on the 1st symphony he was 'feeling it' that day and played the articulated triplet arpeggios from the 3rd movement a bunch of times (because I was so far from getting it just right). He couldn't see the expression on my face, but I was totally dazzled (I still remember just sitting there with my mouth hanging open). To this day I have not heard its equal. Whenever I play that symphony I think of that day and try to imitate it. He did it with no effort and while completely relaxed in every way (which is a lesson all it itself).
Just thinking about it now over 16 years later is still inspiring.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-17 18:47
HAT,
Your terrific post reminds me of a question I wanted to ask you and maybe the other performing professionals who 'tune in' to the BB here (John Moses, Larry Liberson, David Dow, hope I didn't leave anyone out!): how do you stay motivated to keep striving, rather than getting depressed and giving up, when you hear such fantastic, seemingly effortless playing as demonstrated by virtuosi of the clarinet such as Marcellus, Drucker, Leister, etc.? I just can't imagine trying to compete with players who can do things in their sleep that might take me months or years (or maybe forever!) to do. I realize that at your level, you have at least a good percentage of the talent that the aforementioned prodigies do, but nevertheless, I find the whole thing daunting --- what is your 'philosophy' of success in the art of playing?
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-17 19:37
For me it's as simple as I play as well as I can. Hopefully it's good enough. At that point there is nothing you can do about it anyway!
Now Drucker. . .it's impossible to describe how deeply I respect him. He's truly an awesome specimen. I am scared to think about what I will probably sound like at his age. But besides that it's the absolute mastery of the mental aspect of orchestral playing (which of course includes sense of rhythm) and the total knowledge of the repertoire. And many in his orchestra feel the same way. And there are other players who frequent this forum, even, who have played more concerts already in their careers than almost everyone else here combined. And played them at a level that, frankly, is hard for people on the outside to comprehend (Marcellus used to say 'you won't understand this fully until you've done it for a while'). Let's just say there is a vast, vast, VAST difference between playing one or two orchestra concerts a semester (or quarter year) and playing 100 performances of 35 or so different full-length programs.
Leister, funny you should mention because he came to NU also my freshman year, either in the winter or spring, to play a concert with his quintet. And Marcellus got him for a master class. I played at the class, but what really made the impression for everyone (including Marcellus and also Clark Brody, who still talks about that class like I do) was when he played beethoven 6. No one who was there could possibly forget it. It was revelatory in so many ways. But the main one was the impossible lightness of the articulation. . .effortless. And he talked about ways to work on it and such (which because the basis for some great lessons for all of us and a way of life for me). His Tosca was also mindaltering.
But let me tell you, there are guys my own age I feel almost the same way about. Stoops also knows Dan Spitzer, who plays in a clarinet quartet with us. Dan doesn't believe us when we tell him he's one of the world's great clarinet players. But it's true. His sound is impossibly creamy in all registers. He can slur anything... total mastery of registration. Light touch on articulation. And he'll do this on a reed he just removed from the box. Every time I play with Dan, which fortunately is often, my tone sounds better for several days afterward.
And there's other guys and gals too. Some older some younger. We're all trying to do our best. Circumstances that are hard to explain make that almost impossible at times, but the average musicianship standard on the street here is ridiculously high.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-01-17 19:48
HAT's very excellent posts exude one very important underlying message (one at least, which I've always followed):
When possible, try to play with (and for) musicians that you consider superior to yourself. It makes you bring your "A game" to the performance, and instills a sense of reaching to a higher level.
As usual, well written comments from HAT...GBK
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Author: Mark Sloss
Date: 2003-01-17 20:17
HAT couldn't be more right. Being around that level of greatness is pure inspiration. I learned more being humbled in the presence of Marcellus, Gigliotti and Brody during a single 1-hour lesson than countless hours studying and practicing. There is so much information, experience and artistry packed into those little moments when they casually demonstrate than you can't imagine. I was at that same Leister master class, and I still can't fully describe the impact it had on me. Changed my view of German players completely -- unbelievable beauty and delicacy in his playing. And, what a statement that Marcellus and Brody were "wow'ed" by his presentation. Even the greatest have the capacity to be inspired!
And yes, Dan Spitzer is one of those players. He's that good, and his humility makes it all the more impressive. Every time I play with him, I am forced to re-examine something about my sound, technique, or musical interpretation. Wish I could bottle it and keep it in my case for every time I start to doubt I could do more with the instrument.
I'll even throw props to HAT even though his posts are longer than mine ;->. First time I heard him in college, it p*ssed me off. Freshman who could play with that sweet a sound and such fluid technique. My playing sounded labored in comparison. Have to say I learned plenty being around him as well... except for in music theory class, but that's a whole other story.
What the greats give you is a sense of what is attainable with the instrument. They use the same darn equipment everyone else does -- no magic barrels or diamond-encrusted mouthpieces -- and do such incredible things.
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Author: Mike
Date: 2003-01-17 21:50
It just shows you how objective tone is. To me, Marcellus's tone is sweet, clear, and rich; and Leister's tone is flat and thin.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-17 21:53
Mark S. leaves out the fact that he is also in the clarinet quartet. Although Mark actually took some real classes at NU (and actually paid attention part of the time for some reason in the terrible jokes of music ones we had to take together), his hard work on clarinet and saxophones has paid off. There would be no quartet without him.
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Author: Ben
Date: 2003-01-17 22:33
I haven't heard anyone mention the Harold Wright recording of the Mozart with Boston/Ozawa. I certainly haven't heard every Mozart recording there is, but out of the ones I've heard so far I really enjoyed Wrights' rendition.
Ben.
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Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2003-01-17 22:59
Dave S. asked "...how do you stay motivated to keep striving, rather than getting depressed and giving up, when you hear such fantastic, seemingly effortless playing as demonstrated by virtuosi of the clarinet such as Marcellus, Drucker, Leister, etc.? I just can't imagine trying to compete with players who can do things in their sleep that might take me months or years (or maybe forever!) to do. I realize that at your level, you have at least a good percentage of the talent that the aforementioned prodigies do, but nevertheless, I find the whole thing daunting --- what is your 'philosophy' of success in the art of playing?
Silly as it might sound, Dave, but you just take it one day at a time. In other words, I try to make tomorrow an improvement -- no matter how miniscule -- over what I did today.
I suppose I will never reach my ideal of what I would like to be as a musician; but rather than letting that be a constant and nagging (was that a redundancy?) frustration, I use it as a motivation to always try to do more justice to the clarinet and, more importantly, the music. Performing is always an internal competition, each time out an attempt to acheive one's personal best.
I don't mean for this to sound lofty or ultra-philosophical -- only that I'm the only one responsible for what comes out the other end. It's pretty futile for me to try to compare my playing to ABC or XYZ (or even GBK! ) -- there's gotta be at least a zillion guys and gals who can play circles around me. That, along with the exponential number of concepts of clarinet tone, approaches to phrasing and interpretation, articulation issues and, of course, the ever-growing infestation of ligature choice makes it imperative that I find my own way (I would hope that, by now, I'm smart enough and experienced enough to make some of my own decisions) and proceed accordingly. And, of course, that path has been guided by what I have learned from others, what I hear day in and day out and what I experience in my own playing and those around me (I've been fortunate to have spent many, many years now playing with great musicians each and every day). To worry about who's better than you (or me) really becomes a huge waste of energy and angst that can be better spent discussing the perfect thumb rest cushion.
Anyway, I've already lost a good deal of my hair.....
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-18 01:40
Larry Liberson wrote:
>
> Anyway, I've already lost a good deal of my hair.....
Which is all the more apparent since you have to sit next to Ted most of the time ...
:^)
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Author: Meighan Stoops
Date: 2003-01-18 05:13
Unlike Hat and Mark, I didn't have the good fortune of being hearing Marcellus on a regular basis and it's one of my greatest regrets. My first year at NU was his last. It wasn't until I delved into his orchestral recordings that I really appreciated what he could do. A bootleg of a masterclass comes to mind in which he demonstrated that sparkling articulation and liquid gold sound. An utterly refined and consistent player. It doesn't always come across in that Mozart recording.
I have to agree with Greg and Sylvain; David Shifrin's recording is very special to me. He once told me that it is the recording that he was most happy with as well. There is an overall levity and elegance that I haven't come across in other recordings. And no one else plays with that supra legato. I can spot his playing a mile away.
I remember when I was in high school (in a very small town in RI) getting up in the middle of the night to listen to his Brahms Sonatas. He's a consummate musician.
There are so many excellent clarinetists in NY right now and I am lucky to hear and play with some of them on a somewhat regular basis. Yes, sometimes it's frustrating knowing that I'm not "there" yet, but knowing where I want to be helps me get there. It's hard not to be inspired by who's out there right now. To name a few that I haven't played with: Manasse, Nuccio, Drucker, Morales, Jim Ognibene, Steve Hartman and a couple that I have: Hat, Spitzer. Wow, just looking at those names is inspiring. And that's a tiny drop in a big bucket. Makes me want to get out my horn and practice but my neighbor would kill me.
Positive threads are nice, aren't they?
Stoops
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