 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-01-15 03:22
Ever time this piece comes up in my life there appear to be more version than the previous time. Exactly how many version of this are there?
Also, I have a student auditioning for Music Academy of the West where this is one of the audition pieces. Actually, the audition piece is the 1911 version. I have yet to find a version on which it is noted "1911 Version."
Unfortunately, in all of my years as a clarinetist--both in universities and professionally--I've managed to, inadvertantly, avoid playing this piece in rehearsal or concert. The excerpt that I have reads "reorchestrated 1919."
Sorry to be long-winded about this, but while I'm on the subject: In the Bonade excerpt book there is a measure--one measure before rehearsal 14--that seems to be creating some controversy. Is that measure a mis-print? Is it actually a measure from the flute part, or is it correct? I ask because I don't remember hearing it in either live performance or on recordings. And, if it is a clarinet measure, what is the rhythm? There appears to be one too many eight notes in that measure.
Thanks much,
Mitch King
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2003-01-15 05:20
Mitch...As to the history of the Firebird:
There are three different concert suites which emanated from the original 1909 ballet.
The first (1911), often called a "symphonic suite" has the same orchestration as the ballet score.
The second (1919), is for a smaller orchestra, but a little longer in duration.
The third (1945), often called a "ballet suite" has essentially the same orchestration as the second suite (a snare drum is now added), but is slightly longer in duration than the second suite...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: d dow
Date: 2003-01-15 12:52
I believe the same applies to Petroushka, but here I believe there are only 2 versions.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brian Peterson
Date: 2003-01-15 14:55
Mitch,
When you talk about one before 14, I am assuming you are talking about the Firebird Variation of L'oiseau de Fue Suite.
If so, then let me share the result of a little investigating I have done recently.
Some time ago, I ran a BB search on this very issue. Jonathan Cohler replied to a similar question about this measure some years ago. He indicated that it indeed was a mistake and one should under no circumstances play it. I got his e-mail address from the help section of the woodwing.org site and actually asked him about it myself, probably four months ago or so now. His reply was very similar to what he had said before but went a bit farther suggesting that anyone who asked someone to play one before 14 in shouldn't be judging an audition.
Hope this helps.
I saved the e-mail and would be glad to share the specifics with you. Drop me a note if you wish.
Good Luck.
Brian Peterson
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aaron
Date: 2003-01-15 15:21
Brian is correct, the measure before 14 is a misprint by the copyist, and was intended for the flute. It was not intended for the clarinet.
Aaron
University of Northern Colorado
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brian Peterson
Date: 2003-01-15 15:35
Of course even without the above mentioned measure, I find this to be an incredibly difficult exerpt.
I've been working on it for a couple of months now and slowly I'm seeing some improvement. I started out in a very slow 6 and am gradually bringing it up. I guess at some point I need to switch into two, especially to get the section between 12 and one after 13. I think there is a groove developing in my cd recording of Berstein and the NY Philharmonic just from listening to this movement.
I would really be interested to hear how some of the others of you have worked on this excerpt or any other suggestions from any of you pros who might be out there reading this thread.
Thanks.
Brian Peterson
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vin
Date: 2003-01-15 16:47
I played this with an amazing flute player from Curtis and what we did was just the two of us sit down and play the whole variation a few times slowly with the metronome on eighth notes. We gradually sped it up until we got to it to tempo. Peter Hadcock has some helpful things to say in his excerpt book (including fingerings) "the working clarinetist." Anyhow, working with the flute player really helped in general because I got to know how the part fits in exactly in the music (the flute often seems to play whenever the clarinetist doesn't and vice versa); it ended up much more comfortable, rhythmical and flashy. If you don't have a good flute player handy, a recording is ok, but I got more out of playing with other people.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2003-01-15 17:22
Mitch/Brian...Since we are speaking of mistakes in the Bonade excerpt book, just a reminder to correct the second measure of rehearsal 9. The third sixteenth note in that measure (the printed D6) should be a C#6.
Amazingly, the International book (McGinnis), known for its high number of mistakes, has it correct...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2003-01-15 18:04
I know we are not supposed to comment on spelling errors on this BB but I must point out that it is "L'Oiseau de Feu", NOT "Fue", even though most Americans would probably (and incorrectly) pronounce it as the latter. A spelling error in English is one thing but we should be particularly careful when handling foreign languages. The French would understandably cringe! (I am of Dutch origin myself and I know how anything Dutch tends to get totally mangled in the American press, to my considerable annoyance!)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-15 18:15
Henry wrote:
>
> I know we are not supposed to comment on spelling errors
> on this BB but I must point out that it is "L'Oiseau de Feu",
> NOT "Fue", even though most Americans would probably (and
> incorrectly) pronounce it as the latter.
Please don't go and break that rule. Instead offer up some new information and spell things correctly.
Perhaps I'll even have to have yet one more rule - no characterizations of another country, lest people start characterizing yours.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2003-01-15 18:21
Well, if anyone wishes to characterize the Dutch as cheap, I'll be the first one to agree!
Henry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brad
Date: 2003-01-15 19:15
This excerpt has always given me chills. I have to agree that Peter Hadcock in his book "The Working Clarinetist" offers a "corrected" version of the variation as well as some pretty good fingerings. I think the important thing to note is that while a partiular excerpt book or edition maybe the most correct musically, it may not be what the audition panel is looking at. When facing this excerpt on an audition I think that one must ask (prior to the audition) what edition is expected if it was not specified, and if that edition contains the infamous bar before 14, one must also ask if this should be omitted.
As far as practicing the excerpt goes: what works for me has been to work it up very slowly. I regularly practice it slowly with the metronome at eighth=144. I almost never practice it faster than eighth=180. If I start practicing it faster than that I find I start rushing when I turn the metronome off. When the time comes to play it at tempo I can usually pull it off with no problem.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-01-15 19:50
Henry,
"Fue" was simply a typing error; I typed the original post late last night after a couple glasses of Johannisberg Riesling.
Everyone,
Thanks for all the feedback. My student actually emailed Mr. Ormand, and as it turns out, "1911" was a misprint. Me meant the 1919 version. All is now copacetic.
Hopefully I'll get to eventually play this piece before I retire.
Brian,
Don't give up on the excerpt. I've had to prepare it for auditions before, and I know how much of a pain it is. But know this: it does get easier. The more you build your technique, and the more successful you are at slower tempi, the easier it is to play. And this except, at least in my own practice, is littered with alternate (fake) fingerings.
Best of luck, and many thanks,
Mitch King
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Henry
Date: 2003-01-15 23:17
Mitch:
Anything can be forgiven after a few glasses of Riesling! I'd had a few glasses of Burgundy when I sent my post. So we are even. By the way, I'm impressed with your use of the word "copacetic". I had to look it up and it was very appropriate!
Although most of us Dutch may be admittedly cheap, I'm told that we have some endearing qualities as well. I hope you agree.
Good luck with the Firebird!
Henry
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: earl thomas
Date: 2003-01-16 15:47
Having checked the score, Bonade and McGinnis excerpt books, and performed the piece in many halls, I think the copyist left out an
eighth rest on count 3 of the 6/8 measure before rehearsal number 14. BUT the 1919 score DOES have seven beats in that 6/8 measure; so, we just have to deal with it and crowd seven beats into that measure, OR start the 1/32's on count 3. I've asked a few "conductors" about this passage, and they seem to either ignore the situation or expect the "crowding" of seven counts in a six count measure. No problem, just deal with it. I, personally, love the measure and play the high D open, followed by a 12/12 fingering for the following F# and let the rest of the passage just roll down as-is. It can be done. Perhaps it is valid to recall that the original ballet first clarinet part was for D (piccolo) clarinet, hence, through some transcribing error, an extra count found its way into that famous 6/8 measure. It's still delightful Igor. Just do the best you can. Refusing to play the passage may have merit, but, like many sagacious letters to the editor that one may come across, it won't help your situation on bit. E.T.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2003-01-16 18:14
Earl said: "Perhaps it is valid to recall that the original ballet first clarinet part was for D (piccolo) clarinet, hence, through some transcribing error, an extra count found its way into that famous 6/8 measure."
Well, not exactly. While some of what the the piccolo clarinet does in the complete ballet is assigned to the first clarinet in the suite, plenty of it is not or is different. As far as the meassure in question is concerned, the first clarinet part of the suite is not at all similar to the D clarinet part of the ballet.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: earl thomas
Date: 2003-01-17 15:24
Inasmuch as the original question on this topic was about the rhythmic descrepancy of the measure in question, in my response, I tried to help solve the problem. However, I see by the post above that I'm being corrected regarding the similarities between the D clarinet part in the original Ballet and the 1st A clarinet part in the Suite (1910). The very valuable Hadcock "Orchestral Studies for the E-flat Clarinet" reveals that in the first two measures the D clarinet and the 1910 A part are identical. There may be other such measures, but that's not the point, is it? With all due respect to the thoughts expressed in the post above, I believe the point is that a copyist or editor added an eighth-note rest on count 3 in the measure cited in the original question. Hence, I'm prone to think that we should ignore that rest and commence the passage on beat 3 which would put those two high clarinet parts in harmonic agreement as to beat 4 of that measure. I stand corrected re my statement about the 1st clarinet part being the D clarinet. I recall from Stravinsky's "Oedipus Rex" and from his short opera "Mavra" that the E-flat clarinet was quite separate from the "1st" clarinet part. I did'nt see the scores to those works, but was so fortunate to have performed both and recorded one of them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2003-01-17 17:02
Dear Mr. Thomas,
As I am sure you are well aware, threads on this BB often deviate (shall we say ‘wander,’ perhaps?) from the point of the original post. Please bear in mind that my response was referring to one aspect of your prior post which I quoted directly.
I would agree with your suggestion as to how to approach the measure in question, assuming that it should be played at all. However, your comment as to what the copyist may have done (in, perhaps, adding another eighth rest in the measure) doesn’t exactly make sense, assuming you are comparing it to the D clarinet part of which you spoke. The D clarinet part (in the ballet) simply does not have anything remotely close to what the first clarinet part (in the suite) reads in that particular measure. This is what I stated in my above post.
The details: whereas the the suite's first clarinet part (right or wrong) has a passage with a quarter-rest, a (disputed) eighth-rest and four thirty-second notes followed by three groups of sixteenth-note triplets, the complete ballet’s D clarinet part has but a quarter-rest and eighth-rest followed only by a sixteenth-note triplet and and eighth-note, with another eighth-rest to complete the measure.
Yes, the two parts are similar -- but not identical -- in the first two measures. The significant difference is that they are not in the same key (the D clarinet/ballet version starts on a concert E whereas the A clarinet/suite version begins one-half step higher). However, if you are to look carefully throughout the entire 43 measure variation, you will see that, between the two versions, there are only (parts of) 10 to 15 measures that bear similarity to each other.
Like you, I have had numerous opportunities to have performed this music, both the first clarinet parts of the suites and the 3rd part (which is the D, along with A clarinet) of the ballet,which I recorded in the early 1980’s (and it’s quite a good recording, BTW!).
Anyway, please regard my comments as a clarification, rather than that as a “correction.”
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Larry Liberson
Date: 2003-01-17 17:08
Sorry....my mistake about the difference in key!
They are the same!
So much for my credibility.....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2003-01-17 20:55
In the 1910 version the measure in question {1 before 18 in the original version, 1 before 14 in the 1919 version} has 6 beats and the 32nd notes start on the third beat in the piccolo. Source-Dover Publications 1987 reprint of the 1964 publication of the State Music Publishing House, Moscow.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
