 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alex
Date: 2003-01-15 14:57
Who know. What is better.
Vintage Gebruder Monnig bass clarinet or Buffet or other?
Thanks
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-15 15:34
I can offer one data point only --- about 6 months ago I meticulously restored an old and very interesting Moennig Brothers bass clarinet, and was quite disappointed in the way it played even though I spent an enormous amount of time trying to get everything right on it. It was simply a poorly-designed instrument (acoustically). I don't believe the same can be said of Buffet basses, especially the latest models. If you're serious about playing bass clarinet and have money, I'd consider the latest Selmer 35/37 and Buffet 1183/1193 instruments, and forget the rest. If you're on a budget, however, you'll have to significantly expand your list of possibilities.
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Author: brenda siewert
Date: 2003-01-15 17:08
According to some of my friends who own music stores and have access to any kind they want, the Buffet bass comes out on top. To quote one of my friends (owner of one of the largest repair and sales centers in the country), "The bass clarinet is a bad mechanical instrument from its origin. There are many things that can go wrong with their mechanics." The only one he recommends is is the Buffet." And, I might add, he is not a member of the "Buffet Mafia." He carries a lot of Leblancs and has always liked them.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-15 17:48
I have a Buffet Prestige bass 1193-2 and like it very much. I selected mine from a group of six, and the decision was quite difficult--they all played well. As far as I know, it is really a question of Buffet or Selmer in the bass clarinet world. Buffet, my choice!!!!
(aside commentary) The (Buffet) Mafia???--I left it for a while and hung with the LeBlanc guys (Concertos) for a few years, but like "T" (Tony Soprano) say's, "Once your in, there's no getting out." So I'm back "in" with my R13's.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2003-01-15 17:52
The bass clarinets with the best reputation are the ancient Selmers, with the manual register keys. However, you're not likely to find one, and it's as much a matter of unavailability as quality (like Chedeville/Caspar mouthpieces). Stephen Freeman, in the New York Philharmonic, plays one, which he inherited from his predecessor. (I saw him playing it in a recent broadcast.)
My 1967 Buffet bass is a design prior to the current one, and I love the sound, which is, I think, more resonant than the current model. However, mechanically, it's a nightmare and needs frequent adjustment, particularly on the automatic register key mechanism. I'm told that Ron Reuben in Philadelphia plays this model.
Selmers from the 70s and 80s are very popular. They respond more quickly than the Buffets and are physically lighter and mechanically more reliable.
The current Buffet model is greatly improved mechanically. It responds quickly, and the keywork is as reliable as a bass gets. I put it and the current Selmer on a par. The Yamaha is also excellent. (Ed Palanker in Baltimore plays one, and, presumably, John Bruce Yeh uses one when he plays bass in Chicago.)
The upshot is that you try everything and get what works for you.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-15 19:49
I agree with you, William. I'm back with the R-13 as well. So, guess once you're in you can't totally get out. I do like other instruments for a change, however.
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Author: Jean
Date: 2003-01-15 21:12
I am nuts about my Buffet 1193 purchased in 1997. On ocassion I have had the register key adjusted, but that is the only thing on the instrument that has needed work. This is a beautiful instrument and worth every penny. I plan to take care of it so that I never have to buy another bass.
I played a Selmer pro model that belonged to a university about 10 years ago and really disliked it. Felt clunky and cumbersome. I admit to having no love for any of the Selmer clarinets however.
I am not a card carrying member of the Buffet Mafia. My Eb is a Buffet, but my sopranos are Rossi and LeBlanc. Truthfully, if Rossi made a complete line of clarinets they would ALL be Rossis.
Jean
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Author: Robert Hoit
Date: 2003-01-15 23:01
Well I have to go on and put my vote in for the selmer. I owned the last iteration of the buffet low C horn for about 3 years. One i selected stringently and had lots of additional work done to. In the end I could never get it to do everything I needed it to do.
I switched to the new selmer last spring and have been unbelievably happy. I get to spend all my effort on style instead of trying to get it to "sound" a certain way.
now the main question you need to ask yourself is "what am i going to use this horn for?" If you are looking to do straight orchestral stuff with no real desire to explore the solo world very much, the buffet is the better horn. The sound blends a bit more in the orchestral setting as well as having a bit more projection.(not really a lto of difference, but it is a judgement call on where you want to spend your energy.) The downside to the buffet is that it basically sounds one way and there is very little to change that.(thus my problem)
I play mostly solo and chamber music, with the occasional orchestral gig. I needed a horn that had character and an ease throughout all the registers. The selmer for me does that much easier.
feel free to ask me anything. hope this has been at least slightly helpful.
cheers,
bob
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Author: Alex
Date: 2003-01-16 07:52
Thank you for information.
I need in the true information because I plan to buy Gebruder Monnig bass clarinet pre-war (WWII), S/N 44 ** and I do not know the prices for such clarnets. The seller wants 1500,00 US dollars.
It is expensive or normal?
Thanks, Alex
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-16 09:07
My cranky opinions (one last time, then I'll shut up):
-- I think $1500 US is too much to pay for an old Gebruder Moennig bass clarinet, UNLESS you've played the instrument thoroughly and it plays really well, in which case, go for it!
-- I'm not sure I agree with Ken Shaw that the ancient Selmers with manual double register key are so great, if his sole piece of evidence is the playing of Stephen Freeman of the NY Phil (whose sound I've never liked, not that I'm anybody nor is my opinion of any symphony player worth a plugged nickel). I've got lots of recordings of that orchestra where the bass clarinet sounds thin and strained and/or fuzzy/spitty --- not my personal concept of great sound.
-- During the 70s and 80s I tried lots of Selmer basses and never found one I liked at that time, so I stuck with the Leblanc products I had been playing on previously (although, were I to go back in time now and retry those same horns, I'd probably prefer them to the Leblancs after all).
-- I don't understand Robert Hoit's comment about the Buffet sound blending better with the orchestra yet having better projection. Aren't these characteristics more or less opposites? And as for lack of flexibility of tone color, I'd say that that is driven more by the mouthpiece/reed combination than the instrument, if the instrument plays well to begin with. But enough griping, it's tired and I'm getting late.........
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2003-01-16 10:17
in my experience......
on the Selmer and Yamaha horns, you feel that you have "more flexibility", but whether this translates into anything that the audience can percieve is another matter..... i can relate to someone saying that they FEEL the Buffet is less flexible.... BUT in my experience the Buffet has always sounded better (closer to MY IDEAL at any rate) OUT IN THE HALL.
aaahhhhhh, but do they have a flat spring for the C#/G# key?
play good tunes
donald
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-16 15:30
Both Buffet and Selmer, in my opinion, are currently making the finest bass clarinets they have ever made.
I know there are some players who are lovers of antique bass clarinets, but in virtually every case they are older guys who grew up playing the instruments in question and have mastered thier various quirks. I would not trade to an old bass clarinet for anything!!!
The latest Selmer and Buffet models are quite different from each other, and offer relative strenghts based on how you play the bass clarinet and how you feel it should sound. They are both absolutely superb instruments.
My opinion from playing both models extensively (I own a Selmer 37, and have always played Selmer basses) is that the Buffet is an 'easier' instrument to play for the person who hasn't played a lot of bass clarinet or who doesn't play much or often.
The mechanics of the latest Buffet are the smoothest I have ever tried. . .wonderful. The response is the clarion register is also superb.
However, I hate the sharply curved neck that comes with the Buffet and will never play on such a neck. I am told that you can get a 'normal' buffet neck in France, but they don't ship them over here as far as I know. Again, some less experienced players love this neck.
I love my Selmer, the way it sounds and the way it plays. I owned a superb 33 before this, but I believe this horn is even better. I actually liked the 'wierd' extension key arrangement of the model 33, but that horn was stolen and that's that.
Both Buffet and Selmer feature superb intonation (for a bass clarinet, it will never be as close to ideal as a great b flat clarinet. The Buffet probably gets the slight edge here, but the Selmer is very manageable (general improvement over the model 33, the middle b is not horribly sharp but the low e is now somewhat flattish). In any case, as with any clarinet, it is the player who plays in tune, not the horn (although a horn can make it IMpossible to play in tune).
I personally would not consider playing any other model of bass clarinet at this time.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: james
Date: 2003-01-16 15:33
I am a proud member of the buffet mafia. They are great horns. When it comes to basses though I don't have to much expierence trying them out but out of several I have played over the years, I have found two to just be absolutley amazing pieces of work.
One was at my old high school. I don't know exactly model it is, but it's an older selmer (low Eb) clarinet. It has this georgous tone quality. Like that tone that gives you chills becuase is so rich and resonant yet respectfully dark. Go figure it was used in marching band for thirty years. I recently took it on a trip to carnagie hall. Only if i could buy that horn.
The other horn I tried was a Buffet Prestige Bass (low C) which had been worked on by Brannen Woodwinds. I do have to agree that the bass has a weak mechanics aas it is, but the brannens really know how to make a horn work. If you take a bass to them, your problems will be at a minimal. Rick sayre also does the same quality of work with out requiring the 650 servicing first
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2003-01-16 16:19
Hey HAT, RE: "I know there are some players who are lovers of antique bass clarinets, but in virtually every case they are older guys who grew up playing the instruments in question and have mastered their various quirks." as THE SONG GOES, "IT AIN'T NECESSARLY SO....." You forgot to factor in retired pensioners who can't afford the "best". Bob A
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-16 18:02
And to add to Bob's comment, Hat forgot to factor in "house- and family-poor part-time musicians' who also can't afford the best. I'd love to have a Selmer 37 or Buffet 1193, but until the kids are through college it's gonna have to be the old hard-rubber low-Eb Kohlert for me. (What the heck, could be worse ---- I could be playing an ALTO clarinet!!!)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-01-16 19:22
Sorry guys, I hope you didn't take it the wrong way. I was not putting old instruments down at all. I was only giving my perspective as someone who has played a lot of bass clarinet in a lot of orchestras since I started playing in 10th grade 20 years ago.
There are people who read this board who have played thousands of top drawer recording sessions on bass clarinets from the 1970s and before. Legendary stuff. Eric Dolphy by necessity played such an instrument, as did Buddy DeFranco on 'Blues Bag' (although his was a Leblanc, for the record).
I was just saying for me personally as someone who has been playing either a model 33 or 37 since 1985, I couldn't cut it on those old bass clarinets.
Which, if you think about it, says much more about me than it does the instruments, frankly.
The guys who sound good on them do so because they can flat play.
Another interesting thing I have noticed since I moved to NYC. A surprsing number of guys here who play the bass clarinet well also play the saxophone. Coincidence? I no longer think so. Think about that!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2003-01-16 20:37
HAT,
No offense whatsoever taken, at least on my part -- I understand your point, and it is well taken.
As for the link between bass clarinet and sax, it's very common (I've played as much sax as clarinet/bass clarinet in my own humble 'career' and I'm equally adept/inept on all the saxes as I am on clarinets). Fact is, if a bass clarinetist (a) wants to make any money, and/or (b) likes to play jazz or rock or fusion or big band or just about anything outside of classical and concert band......he/she's gotta play sax also.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-01-16 20:59
I do enjoy these "exchanges" with skillful musicians re: my favorite clar [the last 10 years]. I have one of the old "goodies?" a Selmer 33 [1970's] and would sure like to "push" it further than my mediocre abilities and opportunities allow. Several years ago at an OU Symp. I tried out both the Buff and Sel low C's, and figured out the 3 low-note fingerings with little pain. I recall slightly preferring the Sel, prob. due to make-familiarity, and I wished #1, needed and #2, could afford the new-best, and still do! Have much fun, Alex. Don
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-17 14:58
Hat's characterization of the Buffet as being easier for a beginner--or someone who does not play a lot of bass clarinet--to play, is "right on." I am relatively new to playing bass clarinet (although accomplished with years of experiance on the sops) and am currently playing bass about once a month. Having previously tried Selmers and LeBlancs (used and new), when I tried the Buffet Prestige 1193-2 model at IMS, it was like "instant bass" in my hands. I selected the one--out of six--that responded best in the clarion register, especially G# & A, but I was able to easily play with success of all that were available for audition. My point is, that, although I am relatively inexperianced on bass clarinet and play it, at best, infrequently, I find playing the Buffet Prestige quite easy and enjoyable.
Also, regarding the curved neck--I like it. I am short in stature and must hold the low C bass out in front while playing. The sharp curve puts the mouthpiece at the exact angle that is best for me, which is more sax-like than clarinet.
My recommendation is, if you've got the "big bucks" laying around, go for a new Buffet bass clarinet. You'll never regret your choice. BTW, I liked the low C basses as compared to the Eb models--richer sounding plus, those low C's are so neat to play)
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-02-01 22:53
Dave said,:
(What the heck, could be worse ---- I could be playing an ALTO clarinet!!!. Dave you made me feel so guilty that I sold mine.Bob A
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