 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Dan
Date: 2003-01-12 04:37
I like to post thought provoking questions but I'm not sure this one falls into that catagory. I've sent the following question to a professional jazz player but wanted to get more opinions on what may be quite a basic question.
Is a "great" jazz mpc also "great" for dixieland playing? I sense that "jazz" could possibly have many interpretations but dixieland,IMO, is pretty straight forward. I believe that because the styles of playing could be so different, that the mpc would also have to have different characteristics.
For example, I believe that a jazz mpc requires more "flexibility", i.e., note bending qualities, than one for dixieland. But, then again, I could be all wrong.
Any opinions?
Thanks in advance.
Dan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2003-01-12 05:05
I play one Bb R13, mpc and set of reeds in my sax case for jazz and keep another Bb R13, mpc and set of reeds in my double case for concert, simply to avoid a lot of constant switching back and forth from case to case. But with both set-ups, I am always trying to acheive the same standard of sound, regardless of orchestra, wind ensemble, big band or jazz. My opinion is that a good clarinet sound is good no matter where it is used--it is basically the style of playing that is different.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-12 05:19
For jazz, dixieland and all such endeavors, I use the Vandoren 5-JB on the Bb clarinet, the Vandoren B-40 on Eb (soprano) clarinet; the Selmer S-80 C** on soprano, alto and tenor saxophone; and a Goldbeck #3, vintage 1920 mouthpiece on the C Melody saxophone, although I'm looking around for something more modern that will work for me for the C-Mel.
The #3 Goldbeck is like a straight, wide open piece of pipe with a place to put a reed!
For more structured music on the Bb clarinet, I use the Vandoren 5-RV, and the Selmer S-80 C* on the soprano, alto and tenor saxes.
I have a couple of custom mouthpieces somewhere, but for some reason never use them. No particular reason why this should be.
I'm not really sure that I see a reason to use different mouthpieces for "jazz" or "dixieland." Not for myself, at any rate. The best thing you can do is know what you want to play and go out and try different mouthpieces to find something comfortable to you that will give you a reasonable compromise between volume and control.
In my opinion, in determining that a mouthpiece is suitable for, both, the horn and me, tone and volume are the more important initial issues, as with some diligent work, and within reasonable parameters, I can achieve better control of almost any mouthpiece. Some better than others.
The mouthpieces I mentioned before suit me well enough and if I drop, lose and/or break one, I can just walk into any almost any music store and replace it.
Well, maybe not quite that easily, but just about.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank
Date: 2003-01-12 12:15
Hi,
First, as a long time jazz musician that plays a lot of Dixielnad, I must state IMHO there is no difference. Dixieland is jazz and jazz can be Dixieland. However, when I play a lot of small group gigs, I play mostly sax and flute and use the clarinet exclusively for Dixieland. I don't play too many ballads on clarinet other than Moonglow or others that seem to traditionally be "clarinet" stuff (ala Acker Bilk, etc).
I use the same setup for concert band and for small woodwind groups as well; I just use the legit tone and can even do a pretty fair Klezmer as well. I, through how I phrase things, how I choose to project the note, make the difference.
Ron B is right on, I control the instrument - not vice versa. Dan, take charge of your clarinet and yes, you are all wrong.
Hank
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2003-01-12 15:27
I would use the same mpc because there's not much difference in the tone, etc. of dixieland and jazz.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dan
Date: 2003-01-12 18:04
Hello everyone, thank you for your responses.
From my readings, it appears that Peter and Brenda agree that there's really not any difference in the mpc for jazz and dixieland.
I concur.
Ron b and Hank tell me to control my instrument. Hmmm...that, of course, is true but isn't it also true that the amount of control is basically determined or limited by one's entire instrument...principally the mpc, then the rest of the instrument?
For example, in a recent posting on "best glass mpc for jazz", one respondent mentioned that they sold their Pete Fountain mpc because it didn't have enough "flexibility". Does this mean that this person couldn't control their instrument? Or could it be that the mpc involved limited their ability to control the entire clarinet? I believe the latter to be true.
Example #2: There is one contributor to this BB that has 13 R-13s. Now, if ron b and Hank are correct, then, I believe, there would be no real need to have so many instruments.
Example #3: Taking ron b's and Hank's assertion to the extreme, there would need to be only one clarinet and one mpc for any and all situations. After all, it would be up to the player to "control" the instrument to produce whatever sound the player desired.
I believe the clarinet body, the mpc, the reed, and the ligature, all together give the player varying amounts of "control availability". It is then up to the player to maximize the amount of control that one's entire instrument has to offer.
Please note: in Ex #1 and #2, the names were purposely left out because I did not seek their permission. I hope no offense was taken.
To Peter: I interpret the end of your response to have a lot of wisdom. I wonder how many are still searching for that "perfect" mpc, and if they find it, how can it ever be replaced if broken, stolen, etc.
I welcome further responses. The more responses...the more I learn.
Thanks again.
Dan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Peter
Date: 2003-01-12 20:20
Dan,
Thank you for the vote of confidence, however ill deserved! (That's my half-hearted attempt at humility. Did it work?)
For me, the search for the "perfect" mouthpiece has been a never-ending enterprise. Over past years, every time I've thought I found the "perfect" mouthpiece, another one I eventually tried came along, either to replace it, or to fill me with doubts.
Consequently, for a couple of years now I've tried to stick to what has worked out reasonably well for me in the past, although every time I acquire a new instrument, first I try what I have "in stock," then I try what is available for purchase. But if I don't find something remarkably better than what I already have, I stick with my own stock.
Otherwise all my money would go to instruments and accessories, with nothing left over for food and mortgage!
But then again, I do not play professionally, so basically, I only have myself to please at any given time.
It can be much more difficult for the working professional or more publicly active, advanced amature involved in certain bands or orchestras, which is why many professionals and advanced amateurs in similar conditions make a point to learn how to re-work the mouthpieces and reeds they choose to use, and many have designed ligatures.
As far as temporarily replacing a damaged or lost mouthpiece on the spot, everyone I know who depends on them carries, at least, one spare, either the same as the one they use regularly, or the last one they used before the one they damaged or lost.
As far as a permanent replacement is concerned, there is nothing to be done but to start looking for that "perfect" mouthpiece all over again...
As they say in China, "Ay, chihuahua!" :-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank
Date: 2003-01-13 04:01
Hi Dan,
I'm a little confused here. You say you "like to post thought provoking questions" and then you say " The more responses...the more I learn." So, are you trying to learn or just proke discussion? Your motives seem to be also somewhat in opposition.
Also, I said there is no difference in jazz and Dixieland, they are the same. I do not agree with your statement about the fact that I use one set up for all kinds of music in any way implies "Taking ron b's and Hank's assertion to the extreme, there would need to be only one clarinet and one mpc for any and all situations." Please do not assume that I am in any way saying that there is only one setup for all players for all situation. That's what I do and if you don't want to do that, that's up to you.
Please, be careful about taking my statement to the extreme when you have taken it out of context.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-13 05:42
I know some people have fifteen or more pairs of shoes. I have three. I have one computer. My neighbor has six. We get along fine.
I wholeheartedly support anyone’s use of any tool(s), or whatever else, will make the job (in out case here, making music) easier to produce the best product they can; their musical performance in this case. Certainly, no one will die from someone choosing to use a different horn/mouthpiece setup every day of the month and let the others rest – if they want to. Although one setup suits me and simplifies my musical life, I do not mean to even suggest that it has to be that way for anybody else. But, whatever instrument/setup you play, you practice ‘at home’ to gain the best control of it you can for whatever music you wish to produce when you go out.
I don't recommend that everyone should be limited to only one horn/mpc.
I have a favorite horn and mouthpiece and some 'backup instruments'. However, any one of them could be fairly easily replaced with one of something else close, if necessary, and it wouldn't break my heart.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 2003-01-13 09:34
" Example #3: Taking ron b's and Hank's assertion to the extreme, there would need to be only one clarinet and one mpc for any and all situations. After all, it would be up to the player to "control" the instrument to produce whatever sound the player desired. "
Yep that's about it actually, except that you have to find the ideal mp "for you" and that's what YOU would use for any jazz job. It's not an extreme assertion by any means either.
Incidentally jazz is jazz [ie] improvised music with a strong beat, does not matter if you call it, dixie, new orleans, mainstream, modern, contemporary........or whatever.
JK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-13 16:15
John K.,
In all my years of hearing musicians and critics endlessly hashing it out, you've 'explained' it as well as anyone can. In my experience anyway, whatever label and/or sub-label(s) anyone places on it, jazz is improvisational playing. Period.
Many players feel that Folk, Klezmer and Country, etc. should be included. Personally, I've never disagreed with that concept
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dan
Date: 2003-01-13 17:00
To Hank: My appologies for not including you in the "use the same mpc" catagory. I did read in your response that jazz and dixieland were the same but you made no specific mention to my original question concerning mpcs and I misinterpreted your response.
I personally don't see any "opposition" in asking for further responses. To me, further responses lead or can lead directly into further discussions which, to me, can be very informative. IMHO, the shorter the response, the less I learn (in most cases).
To John Kelly: Thank you for your very informative response. Yes, I agree that the mpc is a very personal part of the instrument (along with the type of reed and ligature). I also agree with ron b that your definition of jazz really hits the nail on the head.
To ron b and Hank: it appears that in my search to understand your responses, that I've done some misinterpreting and my follow-up post appears to have stepped on some toes for which I appologize.
I realize that I have a lot to learn and I appreciate your patience and I do value all of your opinions.
Dan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-01-13 17:29
Dan,
I don't feel you've stepped on anyone's toes, particularly mine nor have you misinterpreted anything I've tried, in my labored way, to convey. I, as much as anyone else, also have lots to learn and it is I who appreciate Your patience. I, too, value good discussion and opinions. I'm glad you started this discussion. How else're we gonna find out anything?)) Thank you.
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Colin Farquhar
Date: 2003-01-14 05:51
HI There:
Just two add my $0.02, I have some experience in this area, as I play clarinet in both jazz and 'classical' (western art music) settings at my university and with other ensembles. I have a concept in mind of what a good 'legit' tone is, brought about through listening to recordings and live performances, which I won't try to decribe, as it wouold be pointless. I also have a mindset about jazz clarinet, and play according to the piece of music being performed. In the jazz idioms I have and do perform both as a member of a big band, a small jazz combo, and an 8 piece traditional (dixieland) jazz band->the sound changes depending on the tune, andwhat i feel would suite the song best. I own two Bb clarinets, a Leblanc Esprit w/ B45 is considered the 'legit' setup, although I'm currently mouthpiece shopping, and a 1932 Selmer *RI* with 1940's Selmer Clarion Crystal mouthpiece is the 'jazz' horn. That said, I have used either intrument in either setting, with great success. The two clarinet/mouthpiece combinations sound different, due to bore size, chamber size, reed strngth etc, but I firmly feel that the player goes a long way towards forming the sound.
Thats all I have to add to the pile,
Colin Farquhar
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dan
Date: 2003-01-14 15:17
Hi Colin, I appreciate your comments very much. You seem to add some "fuel?" to the assertions of "control your instrument".
One question I have though...I suspect that your jazz set-up might produce a harder, more piercing sound. I can see where the "legit" set-up could possibly fit into the jazz scene, but, wouldn't the jazz set-up with its possibly harder tonal qualities make it much harder to "blend" in with other instrument in a "legit" situation?
I would appreciate any further comments you might have to add (which, by the way, are worth far more than $0.02!!!).
Thanks.
Dan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Colin Farquhar
Date: 2003-01-15 01:39
Hi Again:
To tell you the truth, I've found that other people say that the sound of my Leblanc is more 'clear' and 'sweet', but rather thin at times (their words...) whereas the old Selmer(due to the bigger bore I presume) has a 'fatter' & 'rounder' sound (I swear... I din't use thos terms!!!)
Colin
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
