 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kat2
Date: 2003-01-10 02:39
They appointed their first female musician spelling is wrong but name is "Ursula Playhinger". She is a viola player. I thought it was neat.
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Author: eBay Junky
Date: 2003-01-10 03:03
Well, they have finally taken a small step towards joining the 21st century. Hopefully the new "trend" will continue.
By the way, What's the difference between a violin and a viola?
Answer: A Viola burns longer.
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Author: Brian Peterson
Date: 2003-01-10 14:30
Am glad to hear about the changes at the VPO. Let's hope it's more than mere tokenism.
Such practices do raise a couple of questions for me though. Why have such well known and presumably "enlightened" musicians, conductors chosen to perform with an organization that for so long continued to operate with such Neanderthal values? Is it so crass an issue of $$?
BP
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Author: William
Date: 2003-01-10 14:53
"Neanderthal values? Is it so crass an issue of $$?"
Probably the same reason why some PGA Tour Clubs still refuse to admit women members: Tradition--a hallmark of the "Dark Ages" and most often detering factor to Enlightnement and Progress.
Good luck Ms. Playhinger (neat name)
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Author: Brian Peterson
Date: 2003-01-10 15:32
I suppose it's safe to say that each of us is a bundle of contradictions, that in scratching the surface, our day to day lives don't always necessarily reflect the values we espouse.
Still, I remember back in the late eighties, early nineties reading what I found to be a fine editorial by Leonard Bernstein on what he saw as the values of liberalism in our culture. At the same time, there he was conducting and recording with the "good old boys" of the VPO.
It's incredible how we, and yes myself included, can somehow suspend our principles for the sake of prestige, noteriety, etc.
Enough of my soapbox.
BP
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Author: larryb
Date: 2003-01-10 16:07
I still feel uneasy about buying or listening to recordings by von Karajan - given his easy acquiescence (to put it mildly) to the Nazis.
I'm still going to see the Abduction from the Seraglio, for the love of Mozart, despite the overt racism of the opera.
What are we to do?
Unfortunately, great art and culture do not guaranty goodness, decency and enlightment in people (creators and appreciators).
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Author: d dow
Date: 2003-01-10 16:13
I would like to know what source material you are quoting. Karajan in 1943 let his membership go, his wife at the time was Jewish and he was being harassed by the Nazis. Check the Richard Osborne book for the story.
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Author: d dow
Date: 2003-01-10 16:18
Somehow few people realize that Karajan fled Germany at the very end of the war because of the precarious problem he was in. His wife Anita Guterman was Jewish and to make things worse he did not want to fight in the army...then after the war because of the investigation of german citizen who the allies thought held sympathies with the party he was not allowed to conduct publicly in concert.
Conductorsw like Karl Bohm were openly sympathetic yet were allowed to conduct in the US shortly after the war. One of the main reasons is because Karajan actually conducted in Berlin during the war years.
So did Furtwangler yet he was able to conduct in England shortly after the war.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-01-10 18:23
I don't want to turn this thread into a von Karajan investigation, but I also have read Osborne's book, and I am not totally convinced by his arguments/theories/recollections etc...
Osborne is a good writer, but the entire book gave me the feeling that he was in awe of him. I would have preferred a bit more objectivity.
The fact still remains that von Karajan joined the party in 1935. Whether for purely political or musical reasons, we can only speculate.
Additionally, von Karajan certainly must have been aware of the treatment of Jewish musicians once the war began.
What was the reason he did not care? ...GBK
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Author: Zack Best
Date: 2003-01-10 19:18
> > Good luck Ms. Playhinger
I second this sentiment, but I guess I must be
a Neanderthal myself since I don't find the notion
of musical organizations or private clubs that
choose to be male or all female terribly troubling.
I do find it a bit troubling that this is being
discussed in the same thread as Nazi sympathizers.
Reminds me of some organization back in the 70's
that welcomed an opportunity to visit Soviet
Russia after boycotting Illinois for it's failure
to ratify the ERA.
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Author: Brian Peterson
Date: 2003-01-10 19:33
Sure, so long as organizations or clubs are private, fine. But when VPO performs on Public Television surely it isn't private anymore.
BP
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-10 19:52
Brian Peterson wrote:
>
> Sure, so long as organizations or clubs are private,
> fine. But when VPO performs on Public Television surely it
> isn't private anymore.
Sure it is; much (most!) of the funding for Public Television in the US comes from private money - mine, yours, charitable trusts, and major corporations. Very little from the government (or they're lying to me at every pledge drive).
I have no problem with exclusionary orchestras as long as they don't take public money (there are many!); however, the VPO is funded with a lot of Austrian public funding. I'm not Austrian so I can't really complain, but I don't buy their recordings or go to their concerts. However, I have to confess that if it comes on TV or the radio I don't switch channels ... perhaps I should and let the stations know.
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Author: Vic
Date: 2003-01-10 19:59
Perhaps, but are they being paid with public monies to perform on Public Television? If so, then you're probably right, Brian. Otherwise, if we don't agree with their policies (and I don't), we can choose not to listen to them, and make sure none of our own funds go to further their exclusionary polices. I think those exclusionary polices are wrong, but I agree with Zack that it's their own business, unless, of course, we're being forced to pay them in one way or another.
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Author: Alan J. Nussbaum
Date: 2003-01-10 20:16
"the VPO is funded with a lot of German public funding"
I hate to be pedantic, Mark, but since Vienna is in Austria, so is the VPO. But your basic point is certainly right, and if anything you understated it. I believe the VPO is a state-run outfit, and its members (i.e. the musicians) are all state employees, officially speaking. This makes it especially outrageous that they would exclude half of their citizenry (who pay taxes, don't they) from eligibility.
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2003-01-10 20:22
Alan J. Nussbaum wrote:
>
>
>
> > Mark originally wrote:
> "the VPO is funded with a lot of German public funding"
>
> I hate to be pedantic, Mark, but since Vienna is in Austria, so
> is the VPO.
Sorry about that. Fixed.
How's Munich coming along after the Abbie Conant fiasco of years gone by?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-10 20:22
Alan J. Nussbaum wrote:
>
>
>
> > Mark originally wrote:
> "the VPO is funded with a lot of German public funding"
>
> I hate to be pedantic, Mark, but since Vienna is in Austria, so
> is the VPO.
Sorry about that. Fixed.
How's Munich coming along after the Abbie Conant fiasco of years gone by?
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Author: werner
Date: 2003-01-10 21:36
http://www.muenchnerphilharmoniker.de/online/german/orchester.php
Solo clarinet Alexandra Gruber
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Author: Willie
Date: 2003-01-10 21:52
My wife and I watched the VPO New Years Concert on PBS (Ch-8 in Houston) and noticed the new gal as the camera zoomed in on her several times. We also noticed during one close up she looked over at her stand mate as if she was totally lost, though she may not have been. Maybe her standmate hit a clunker?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-01-10 22:25
larryb mentioned the Abduction from the Seraglio and it's racist plot. It just reminded me of an interesting event:
A few days after 9-11, we played this piece in Zürich. At the end, the Turkish Bassa Selim (who turns out to be the real hero of the piece) says "it is a far greater pleasure to repay injustices suffered by good deeds than to compensate evil by more evil". The whole audience spontaneously burst into applause.
So even a "racist" piece can carry an important message.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2003-01-11 05:14
"My wife and I watched the VPO New Years Concert on PBS (Ch-8 in Houston) and noticed the new gal as the camera zoomed in on her several times. We also noticed during one close up she looked over at her stand mate as if she was totally lost, though she may not have been. Maybe her standmate hit a clunker?"
My background is on classical guitar. Somehow this reminds me of my experience as a woman on a "man's" instrument. Even with Ida Presti before me on guitar and lots of great women players like Sharon Isbin and Alice Artz coming to the front after me, I was told by one teacher women were too weak to play the guitar. I was the only female in my guitar performance class at the conservatory. I was also (being schizo) the only female bluegrass banjo player gigging in the area at one time. I remember being made to feel as if every mistake I made was made by every woman in the universe, that all of us were judged by my errors. I often felt like a side show freak, in music shops clerks would run over if I tried out an instrument, all bug eyed that I could play. I feel sorry for what the new 'gal' is going through.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-01-11 08:54
Mark C wrote:
< however, the VPO is funded with a lot of Austrian public funding. I'm not Austrian so I can't really complain >
Since all members of the VPO are employed by the State Opera they all benefit from state subsidies but not as philharmonians. The State Opera also allow women in the orchestra since a long time. As you can see from this clip from their home page things are changing even with the VPO:
"A Private Association - Refusing Subsidies
The Vienna Philharmonic is a private association. Until 1996, it received a state subsidy in the amount of 2.5 million Austrian shillings per year. In February 1997, however, the orchestra decided not to take further advantage of the subsidy, which only covered the approximate cost of a single concert with choir. As far as the taxpayers' contribution to the Vienna State Opera Orchestra is concerned, it should be pointed out that this outlay by the Republic of Austria is largely covered by the taxes paid by the Vienna Philharmonic. Furthermore, at the beginning of 1997, in a break with 155 years of tradition, it was decided to offer women equal opportunities. Anna Lelkes, harpist and a member of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra for many years, became the first female member of the Vienna Philharmonic."
For more info go to: http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/english/orchester.htm
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Author: d dow
Date: 2003-01-11 12:56
Since this is "music" we are talking about, surely whether or not something is public or privately funded should not affect whether or not we judge it to be excellent or not. Maybe this is a form of reverse discrimination?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-01-11 14:02
d dow wrote:
>
> Since this is "music" we are talking about, surely
> whether or not something is public or privately funded should
> not affect whether or not we judge it to be excellent or not.
> Maybe this is a form of reverse discrimination?
I don't think anyone has tried to make that point.
As Alphie has pointed out, the VPO is now a private orchestra and can do what they want. If they choose to exclude women (protestation on openness notwithstanding - they've got a lot to prove before I believe their sincerity) I can choose to do what <b>I</b> want - which is <b>not</b> to help them financially.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-01-11 14:56
Again from their homepage:
"Furthermore, at the beginning of 1997, in a break with 155 years of tradition, it was decided to offer women equal opportunities.
This means that officially The VPO are open for women since 1997, no discussion about it.
I still believe like Mark that individuals in the orchestra have a lot to prove when it comes to actually pick women at auditions for the Vienna State Opera. There are still very many extremely conservative individuals in this bunch of patriarchs so the change will most certainly take longer than in the Berlin Phil. where you can see quite a few women today concidering that that orchestra has not been open for women for so many years.
I have met the ww section of the Berlin Phil. recently and aprox. 15 years ago and the change of attitude is enormous. Today it's a modern orchestra with modern values. Not like it was during the Sabine Meyer case.
Five years ago I met many members of the VPhO and they were very nice people and colleagues but not exactly people with modern values. Still I'm sure that there is no return to the dark ages and I'm happy that the change took place in the VPhO at all even if it will take some time before we can see the result.
For more information on the VPO's auditioning procedure go to:
http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/english/werdegang.htm
Alphie
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