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 accidentals on grace notes
Author: Dick 
Date:   1999-09-06 02:55

I have been getting confusing opinions. Does an accidental on grace note at the beginning of a measure also apply to the regular notes in the same measure?

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 RE: accidentals on grace notes
Author: William Fuller 
Date:   1999-09-06 03:14


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 RE: accidentals on grace notes
Author: Daniel 
Date:   1999-09-06 06:32

I've played some pieces where if you don't carry the accidental to regular notes, then it sounds wrong. Others, it doesn't. But for the most part, yes, accidentals on the grace note do carry through out the measure.

In very contemporary stuff, an accidental only applies to that particular note when it occurs in the measure. So if you have a 5th line F with a # accidental, and then a first space F later on, then the first space F is an F.. not an F#.

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 RE: accidentals on grace notes
Author: JEff 
Date:   1999-09-06 13:24

I have always been told by teachers that they carry through


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 RE: accidentals on grace notes
Author: William Fuller 
Date:   1999-09-06 17:20

Daniel, could you specify a piece of music where the accidentals do not carry through the measure and where accidentals on grace notes do. I may have more to learn about reading music and would appreciate the info.

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 RE: accidentals on grace notes
Author: Daniel 
Date:   1999-09-06 22:20

The first etude from the Jean-Jean 25 has several instances where the grace notes carry through the measure. As well as some of the Rose 40 and 32 etudes. Some composers and publishers add aditional accidentals to major notes of the same name to clarify that they too are meant to be effected.

As to modern stuff where the accidental only applies to notes of the same pitch class: I can't think of any pieces off the top of my head. I believe it was mostly atonal works and very unusual experimental compositions. I'm not quite experienced in the contemporary works to really cite pieces. I mainly just remember looking at a piece or a couple of scores and asking someone who had plenty of experience as a conductor and that was the response i recieved. And at another time i was discussing contemporary works with a former teacher of mine and mentioned that idea and she confirmed it. <shrug>

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 RE: accidentals on grace notes
Author: William Fuller 
Date:   1999-09-07 01:53

To Daniel: Thank you for the correction--I was totally wrong about the grace note accidentals. Must have suffered one of those notorious "senior moments." Anyhow, now that my "reed"is properly adjusted and since you made me get out my old Jean-Jean books, I am going to review what I had once learned, but had apparently forgotten. It should be fun--I havn't played these books since my college days in the early 60's. Thank you for your response, again.
(Still would like to see some of those other compositions if you ever recall them)

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 Grace, Trill, and Turn Accidentals
Author: paul 
Date:   1999-09-07 16:22

It's a challenge to keep up with what the composer really wants. Sometimes the markings are difficult to see, even in high print quality published works (such as the commonly known drill books from Rubank, Langenus, Baermann, etc.). Should I play the rest of the measure with the accidental as marked in the grace note or the trill or the turn in the beginning of the measure? In most classical music (especially what's listed in the common drill books), do the trill and turn accidentals affect the rest of the measure the same way as the grace accidentals?

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 RE: Grace, Trill, and Turn Accidentals
Author: Jim Carabetta 
Date:   1999-09-07 20:01

I've always handled grace note accidentals as affecting the current measure, and trill/gruppeto accidentals as only affecting that particular embellishment, and not the rest of the measure.

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 RE: Grace, Trill, and Turn Accidentals
Author: paul 
Date:   1999-09-07 21:09

Thanks, Jim.

So far, and I know it isn't much, the material I've seen has been for beginners and intermediate players, often with little helpful hints in it, such as lesser known alternate fingerings in challenging runs, and (for lack of a better way of putting it) "remarked" accidentals to help the student play the correct note in the measure. I can specifically remember a turn that required a B natural (marked as such with the natural mark above the turn symbol) and then the publisher/editor made it a point to show the next B note in the original key that required a Bb with a good sized flat symbol next to it and an asterisk with a special instructional footnote at the bottom of the page to tell the student about the change. A bit obvious, but necessary for beginners like me.

I seriously doubt that regular works are written in such an obvious way to help guide the player.

So, let's see if I can get the "rules" right here.

Accidental on a grace note: take the accidental through the measure unless marked or written otherwise

Accidental on a trill or turn: take the accidental for the embellishment and return to the key signature unless it's marked or written otherwise

Let me know if I got it right or not.


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 RE: Grace, Trill, and Turn Accidentals
Author: Jim Carabetta 
Date:   1999-09-08 13:45

That's the way I was taught (somewhere in the Paleozoic Era, I think), Paul, and the way I've handled them for the last 38 years; it may not be correct, but I've played with groups from polka bands and dixieland combos to symphony orchestras and no one's ever called me on it.

That's not to say I'm right, however. I'm not "classically" trained - I learned how to play from one of the best local jazz clarinetist/flautists pre-war Connecticut had seen. He'd grown up with my father, and once I expressed an interest in music, offered to teach me. It's a gift I could never repay .. and, that's why I enjoy working with beginners.

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 RE: Grace, Trill, and Turn Accidentals
Author: Al 
Date:   1999-09-08 14:41

The above is essentially true, but in the end, sometimes only the ear can make the final judgement.

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 Accidentals on Mordents
Author: paul 
Date:   1999-09-09 13:58

Got another good one for all of you.

What about accidentals on mordents? How are these mordent accidentals marked in music? For instance, are the accidentals marked above or below the mordent sign like that of a turn sign? Does the accidental apply only during the mordent embellishment like a trill?

I don't have very much playing experience or training, especially compared to the pros and serious amateurs who peruse this BBS. Are there any other embellishments for the clarinet besides the ones listed in this thread? If so, how do the rules of accidentals apply?

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 RE: Accidentals on Mordents
Author: Dee 
Date:   1999-09-11 01:29

Yes accidentals on mordents are limited to the mordent itself.

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