 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-21 13:05
When I hear French music played by present-day orchestras, the tone of clarinets, oboes, flutes and bassoons doesn't seem right to me. I mean by this, the fat, round, meaty, dark sounds most top orchestral players favour these days (including the French! Mondialisation oblige!). Period- instrument Orchestras like John-Eliot Gardiner's and les Siècle here in Paris seem to me to capture the sound and spirit of the music far better than our standard great symphony orchestras: a leaner, brighter, smaller tone. By French music, I mean anything from Berlioz on, and I would include Stravinsky, de Falla and other composers that lived in France and were heavily influenced by Debussy. Without necessarily using historically informed instruments, wouldn't it be possible to use mouthpieces and reeds that didn't produce such a fat round sound when playing this music?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-21 13:07
Ps: I love the recordings of French music directed by Paul Paray in the 50s with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. The timbre of the orchestra is very lean and clear, and this, of course, on "modern" instruments.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-07-21 15:51
I think you are right that the choice of equipment may have some effect. At the same time, I think one important factor is to be able to play with a flexible tone and color and to be sensitive to the music. Sometimes I hear players who have one tone quality that is used in all situations.
It is like being an actor. You need someone who can fit their performance to the character and not just play themself all the time.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-22 15:02
I could not agree more with the above posts.
But we must understand who the "actor" is. The full ensemble is the "actor" and the "director" is the conductor. And yes, Paul Paray was one of the more gifted conductors we have had. That was also a time when rehearsal time was taken seriously rather than seen as a burden to the orchestral budget. The fiscal realities of the last thirty years have made it doubtful that we will hear music making of the that level any time soon.
Sure great musicians will follow the lead of their conductor quickly enough and put blending with their peers above all else, but for a conductor to clearly impart her/his vision on any one particular piece of music, there is the need for some minimal amount of working time with the musicians that is not being met.
I am hopeful that this may be a cyclical problem and I hope that society's ideas of what is important will circle back to the creation and interpretation of great works of art.
Though spare time and spare change may be a prerequisite.
,.................Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2020-07-23 00:04
I think what we're all saying is that nowadays every orchestra, anywhere in the world, pretty much sounds like any other orchestra (variations in technical competence aside). The distinct 'national' styles of playing are a thing of the past, and the days of being able to pick out a particular orchestra based on the tone quality of one of its principal players are gone too.
Globalization has made orchestral listening boring, in my opinion. Everyone can play anything note-perfectly, but everyone sounds alike. Conductors jet all over the world following the money, hardly any of them stay with one orchestra for more than a decade, so there are no strong stylistic imprints on a given orchestra's playing either.
I wonder if anything will change post-COVID?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-23 00:24
Also a very valid point David. There is a globalized homogeneity.
Although the original post speaks to the stylistic interpretation of specific types of music, a different and equally compelling issue.
But they are results of the same problem.........time, or rather........money.
There is only enough time to "get the notes" in the average rehearsal schedule.
There is a video rattling around on the internet from the 80's where Sergiu Celibidache rehearses and performs (a documentary movie of the event) Gabriel Faure's Requiem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf_1kaf2Otc
[one hour.....worth every second of your time]
Celibidache was a HIGHLY sought after conductor of his day and most orchestras would have wanted him to at least guest conduct once. However the BIG hang up was his insistence on almost double the rehearsal time.........AND THAT WAS forty years ago!
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-07-23 01:59)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-23 09:20
David: On a personal level, don't you think we could adapt our gear to playing French music: aim for a leaner, brighter sound with more harmonics? Even if we don't go as far as using period instrument-which I highly approve of-we could at least meet the "historically-informed" movement half-way: really adjust to the style, sound and sprit of the music instead of playing everything the same way.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-07-23 17:43
Equipment matters to some degree- you need something flexible that can achieve the colors and comfort you desire, but perhaps the most important part is using ones ears and learning to adjust your sound.
I always think of this video by the great tenor player, Don Menza. He talks about the sound of some of the legendary players and is able to adjust his approach to get that sound. I always find this really enlightening, realizing that he is using the same equipment for each.
https://youtu.be/5Oc0VzGBPxY?t=277
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Author: EbClarinet
Date: 2020-07-23 17:45
I'm in TX and that brighter tone quality that u're talking about is called the east coast sound. There's so many tones 2 the Bb clarinet that we can have.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/mbtldsongministry/
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2020-07-23 21:55
Ruben et al, my apologies for going a bit off-topic with my rant. To get back to the original question, there is a fair amount of 'tonal tweaking' you can do with the equipment. When I think of a traditional "French" clarinet sound, I hear someone like Guy Deplus with a thin, bright sound and fast, heavy vibrato. That may be a stereotype (or just plain wrong), but that's what comes to my mind.
If I were trying to sound like that I'd probably use a fairly open mouthpiece with a short facing, and a thin/soft reed. And add the vibrato.
Choice of instrument, honestly, doesn't seem to make that much difference. To my ears, using one of my typical mouthpiece/reed combinations, I sound the same on a Boosey & Hawkes large-bore (English, of course) clarinet, or an F. Arthur Uebel Oehler-system clarinet (of which I have several), or a more typical French clarinet (I have a nice Martin Freres, very Buffet-ish I think). So I don't believe a particular sound/style could be achieved by an instrument switch alone.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-23 23:04
David, you mentioned Guy Deplus-who recently passed away Here in France, he is considered the first French clarinetist to get away from the old reedy, thin, bright French sound. He was influenced by Karl Leister and developed the "round" Vandoren B40 mouthpiece and Buffet Prestige clarinet to obtain that rounder sound. A typical "pre-Deplus" player would be, to my mind, Jacques Lancelot (5RV mouthpiece-rather weak reeds). I can't really say I liked the old French sound. In fact, when we got away from it, I breathed a sigh of relief. But these days, I do think it suits the music of Debussy, Ravel, Roussel...so many other composers. But certainly not Brahms or Mahler. My point: why not produce a different tone for Mahler and Debussy, those exact contemporaries that were so different in spirit?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-23 23:55
Hey Ruben,
I assume that you have heard many examples of the Old School French sound in person but I have to ask.........did you hear them live?
I ask because through the recorded medium I had a similar impression of Stanley Drucker's sound (definitely not French School). However, when I heard him live, his sound was huge and as "Mid-Western" (Clark Brody, Larry Combs, Robert Marcellus) as it could possibly be.
I have, and still remain quite puzzled by this phenomenon. I am definitely not the only one to have the "thin/bright" assessment of Drucker's recorded sound. Some listeners to his recording insist he uses a vibrato and yet Stanley Drucker himself insists that he never has.
This is of particular interest to me now as a nascent recording engineer, since it seems probable that there is some quality generated by Drucker (and other of this particular "school" here in the States anyway) that causes this effect with microphones. So I further wonder if this was happening similarly amongst the earlier players in France.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2020-07-24 00:09
Ruben, I may have meant Lancelot rather than Deplus, it's been many years since I listened to either player, in which case I apologize for the error.
It also occurs to me that Richard Stoltzman, although not French of course, has some of that "French-like" quality to his playing, and I agree with Paul that Stanley Drucker kind of sounds that way (on recordings at least, I've never had the privilege of hearing him in person).
Gigliotti was another player who sounded "thin and bright" to me on recordings, but he didn't use any vibrato so the effect was different.
Not sure what sound I like any more....... I could name a few famous players whose sounds I can't stand, but won't divulge their names here.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-24 19:37
Paul and David: I heard Lancelot often live, in chamber music. The other top French player of Lancelot's generation was Henri Druart; principal with the newly-founded Orchestre de Paris. He had a much bigger sound than Lancelot; maybe a bit less reedy, but also bright. When Karajan took over the Orchestre de Paris, he hated Druart's sound and "nudged" him into buying a pair of Wurlitzer Böhm-reformed. He wanted Druart to sound like Leister. Druart couldn't get used to them and went back to his Leblanc L200s. Karajan also forced the bassoons to switch from French to German bassoons. The generation after Lancelot and Druart: Dangain and Deplus, got away from the old, traditional French sound and now it's gone for good. Paul: I've been told by recording engineers that it is very hard to record the clarinet because it is so rich in harmonics.
PS: Bonade was French and had many students in the US. What did he sound like? I shouldn't think he had as much influence as Tabuteau had on American oboists. Leon Russianoff thought highly enough of Lancelot to send him many American students-basically to study the French repertoire.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-24 21:50
Yes indeed it is hard to record a good classical clarinet sound. It is not directional (as with other woodwinds) but also generates a square wave where the wave itself folds back on itself like an organ pipe.
Of course from a distance, say, within the context of an orchestral recording, those issues usually iron themselves out. As with Drucker and others (Gigliotti?.....I never heard him in person) the sound is oddly "pointed" within the orchestral context.
I've heard some who sound like that say that they "spin" the sound. But I don't know exactly what they mean by that. If anyone has any insight into that sort of verbiage as it pertains to executing some specific technique.........I'd LOVE to hear about it.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-24 23:02
Paul: VERY interesting! I heard Gigliotti with Philadelphia in the US and in Europe: not the world's nicest sound, though a fine musician, obviously. A bassoonist friend of mine that played with him expressed no great appreciation for his sound. He blamed Ormandy for ruining Gigliotti's sound by always aking him to play louder. The NY Philharmonic under Bernstein was recorded by CBS, I seem to remember. Phililps and EMI in Europe did better work in those days. Actually, on recordings at least, Drucker sounds rather French. I'm not sure that's a compliment.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2020-07-24 23:49
I was driving in my car today and on the radio heard a performance of Debussy's Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune. I was completely absorbed by the orchestral playing on what was clearly an older recording and couldn't wait to hear which orchestra was playing in the announcement at the end.
The flute (during the enormous solos) and the oboe used hardly any vibrato at all! All of the woodwinds played with sounds which I could only describe as being extremely colourful. In today's world they would be considered too "bright" compared to the typical "Euro-sound". What I found so captivating was how the woodwind soloists could modulate the tone colour, all this highlighted by the lack of vibrato. The strings sounded sumptuous, the ensemble playing was almost always perfect and the pacing of dynamic and tempo was exhilarating. But even with these highly personal tone colours, the various instruments blended and balanced extremely well together. I was quite surprised to discover that the recording was of a young Pierre Boulez with the New Philharmonia Orchestra, sometime from the 1960s I believe.
I've spent the afternoon listening to various recordings of this piece. I find Boulez's later recording with the Cleveland Orchestra very inferior. The flute and oboe play with incessant vibrato which becomes boring within a single bar. The clarinet is so "dark" as to seem dull. The luminosity and spectacular tonal palate of the earlier recording is just not there. Even Les Siècles with François- Xavier Roth seem bland to me in comparison with this early Boulez recording.
The recording by the New Philharmonia may not be "French" in some of the stereotypical ways in which we may understand that descriptor, but I find it to be French in the very best possible ways and I am extremely happy to have discovered it for myself today.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2020-07-25 03:58
This is not meant to be any sort of definitive contribution to the discussion, possibly a broadening? Presenting links to 2 videos: one, Philippe Cuper, whose sound, to my ears, is light, lithe, luminous, and a distinct departure from the prevailing "dark" sound apparently sought-after today. I agree with Ruben that if I were going to present any of the traditional French repertoire, Cuper's sound is what I would shoot for. (Although I wonder if his is the "French" sound Ruben has in mind?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCJndhiAf8g&t=2s
Of course, having discussions with recorded examples at ALL is a little chancy, simply because of the changes and variability of recording, ambience, and so forth. The Vandoren TV videos are worth comparing perhaps, since they're recorded in similar settings with (presumably) similar equipment.
Here's a 2011 recording of Nicolas Baldeyrou in a similar setting. How does his sound compare to Cuper's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OTt4h2xv70
And Jon Manasse, who we maybe could posit as an exemplar of the modern "North American" or "East Coast" sound?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdBScK_69Y
Here's an ingenious dissection of Ralph McLane's sound, put through some sort of frequency analyzer to illustrate Russel Harlow's point how certain spectra in the clarinet sound can be enhanced to alter the sound, for better and worse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zpnuokdmaw&t=44s
Harlow has an extensive website featuring many snippets of performances through history, that somewhat illustrates the difficulty of comparing players, particularly from different historical eras, or who may have been indifferently recorded.
https://rharl25.wixsite.com/clarinetcentral/russell-harlow
The site is tremendous fun to listen to, but arriving at a definitive sound that I personally prefer is difficult (for me at least). As Ruben suggested (and I think Manasse hints at this a bit in his video) having ONE "sound" does NOT fit all--at least, not well.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-07-25 09:25
Aged 13 I read The Clarinet by Jack Brymer- in which he states that you shouldn't/wouldn't use the same sound to play different styles of music/composers etc. Although it was to be some years before I actually heard Jack Brymer play, and I'd never say his playing as such was very influential to my development, I took this to be very sensible advice even at a young age, and have always taken this in to consideration when preparing for performance etc
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-25 13:42
Doug: Philippe Cuper respected Lancelot, Druart, Guy Deplus, Stanley Drucker..all of whom he studied with, but his big influence was the French clarinetist Cahuzac. It shows in his -superb- playing.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
Post Edited (2020-07-25 16:41)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2020-07-26 09:45
Dear Liquorice: The Cleveland Or chestra is/was probably considered a more virtuoso orchestra than the New Philharmonia, yet the intepretation and musicianship that you hear on the part of the New Philharmonia was superior. This is an interesting point! I had a friend who sang quite a bit of Ravel with the Berlin Philharmonic and he told me he derived much more musical satisfaction from working with the excellent, but far less prestigious Toulous Capitole Orchestra than with Berlin. Given the choice between listening to recordins of Beethoven symphonies with Thielmann and the Vienna Philharmonic or Zinman with the Tonhalle, I would easily opt for the latter. Also, and needless to say, playing on historically-informed instruments is no guarantee of a fine performance. I like the sound of Roth's orchestra, but find the interpretations uninspired.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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