 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-15 10:15
It appears a lot of people have positive opinion on hard rubber clarinet over a wooden one in this forum. Are there any known clarinettist from a major orchestra outfit who plays a rubber clarinet?
Or, are their any solo performed by a big name artist with a hard rubber clarinet on youtube?
If not, has anyone from this forum posted a youtube video of themselves doing some of the following on a rubber clarinet.
1. An étude comparable to those by C. Rose
2. A movement from a work comparable in difficulty to the Concerto in A Major, K. 622, by Mozart; Concerto in F Minor, Op. 73, by Weber; sonatas by Bernstein, Saint-Sans, or Hindemith; or any of the 16 Grand Solos by Bonade.
3. A contrasting movement to No. 2 (above), or another contrasting work.
#note.. I ask this because inconsistencies in wooden clarinet is driving my 12 yo son crazy. His biggest complaint is that the clarinet plays and sound differently everyday. This is the curse he has to live with for having that perfect pitch ear. He can hear the slightest difference in tone and it frustrates him if it is not perfect. He will stop, redo, and gripe that the clarinet is not playing like it did yesterday. He even tells me the keys don't respond the same some times... and the repair tech says that's normal due to the weather...
I am looking for repertoire on a rubber clarinet so I can play the video to my son and ask him if he would consider playing it himself.
Post Edited (2015-02-15 10:18)
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2015-02-15 10:28
I believe Ridenour has 2 of the 3 pieces recorded on his website. I personally believe no video or recording is going to tell you whether or not you want to use a clarinet. Especially in this case considering your sons problem is inconsistency and a recording is a snapshot of a nearly infinite film. Also perhaps you should invest in a synthetic reed as I feel like the reed changes the way I play and sound every day more than the instrument although I haven't played on a non hardrubber clarinet consistently in a while. Also, this http://www.lesliecraven.co.uk/reviews/review_ridenour.html
(I found these fairly quickly with just a google search)
As a final note, I'd just like to give props to your son being 12 and playing some hard stuff (At least I'm assuming he's playing the pieces you mentioned above either way props), but sometimes the best solution is to take a break and chill out for a bit.
Post Edited (2015-02-15 10:32)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-15 10:43
Yes, either he plays them or is in process of learning them for an audition. And i did go out and bought those expensive synthetic reeds in different strength as a Christmas present for him, and he did not like any of them. He says they feel different and the tonal quality does not compare to a real cane. Since they don't accept returns, I wasted so much money on those...
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-02-15 10:56
I believe that your problem is that you live in an ice cold area of the country right now and in a number of weeks the temps will start to rise and his problems will go away.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-15 11:25
I'm just curious (I'm addressing this to you and anyone who lives in a cold climate), how much do wooden clarinets change their dimensions/feel in really cold locations like yours? It basically never gets below 40-50° here, so I've never had to deal with that. Is it just slight variation, or does tone and intonation become wildly different on a day-to-day basis? That would drive me absolutely crazy.
I have no experience with rubber clarinets so I can't really answer the question at hand, but I just wanted to point out that he is probably different from day to day too, as are most of us. Regardless of how consistent my reeds or instrument are (or aren't), I have days where things just don't seem to feel right, and this is due to the fact that our anatomy is simply not the same every day. While there's something to be said for having an instrument that doesn't change its playing characteristics from day to day, it's also important to be flexible so that you can deal with the different ways in which your reeds/instrument might respond.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2015-02-15 11:36
It would be surprising if the material made any difference in the way it plays day to day. Could it be that your young son has not yet developed breathing and voicing techniques?
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-15 12:01
My young son plays much more consistently and plays much longer, considerably longer on his Yamaha ycl-255 (a plastic) without stopping. But he knows there are difference in the sound quality between wood and plastic.
I don't know the exact changes in dimensions as I never measured them, but the tech tells me it is normal for a key to be feeling unresponsive/slow to respond at times due to changes in wood dimensions.
What gets me is, my son will play a phrase then will stop, and I look at him... and he will complain it didn't play that way yesterday but it's doing something else today, he says one of the note didn't play right. I take away his wooden clarinet and give him the plastic and he will just play on.
But he knows he will audition with wood, and he would like to be able to practice with the one he will audition.
By the way, when you say breathing or voicing techniques, I don't know what you mean. I know I fired his old teacher because he wouldn't teach my young son the proper embouchure for one... (one day i asked him to teach my son the proper embouchure, and he just chuckled at me and says he has fine tone). I also remember him telling my son, piano means soft and forte mean you play loud... But he never taught my young son how to play piano correctly. Only yesterday, the new teacher whom we love very much teaches him to play it correctly. .. it was neat, she say, how do we play piano on your clarinet? My son says, blow soft? She says nope, proper way to play piano on your clarinet is to blow small stream of air fast, try it !!! And my young son gives it a try, and when I saw that smile on his face, I was a one happy dad.
Post Edited (2015-02-15 12:23)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-15 14:33
Part of learning to play an instrument is in the realization that sometimes things are not optimal, but you still need to play anyway. One of the skills we learn is how to play around these difficulties. Having perfect pitch may enable you to recognize that all is not as you would like it to be, musicianship is making the instrument play the way you want it to even if things are less than perfect.
Quote. "I know I fired his old teacher because he wouldn't teach my young son the proper embouchure for one... (one day i asked him to teach my son the proper embouchure, and he just chuckled at me and says he has fine tone".
Your son's teacher will have developed their own system and sequence of teaching his/her students. It may be that your concern for his progress is causing you to interfere with this progress. Unless you are yourself a teacher, how would you know if this is so?
Tony F.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-02-15 15:29
I live in the same area as you do and when I receive a wooden clarinet from a different temperature region within two days every tenon ring becomes loose due to wood changing dimensions which proves that is your problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-15 16:29
The key thing is an "easy fix." A good tech should be able to ascertain which keys are 'binding,' and shave the tube down enough so there is good clearance even in the cooler rooms of this time of year. I recall one of the bands I was in regularly gigged outside in 40 degree weather (fahrenheit) and I'd take the plastic horns and stick them in the fridge for a few hours. When good and cold, I'd test the key action and make appropriate modifications until everything worked great when really cold.
If your son's key action is ok on the plastic horns in this weather, it is ONLY because there is a LOT more play in the keys. Plastic (and I mean PLASTIC) actually shrinks and expands more than wood.
On a related note, I have just been working with a top of the line Buffet bass clarinet that was fine upon delivery this Fall, unfortunately in this weather six of the keys at the bottom had gotten really logey. I had take all the keys off the bottom joint and shave down six of the long rod ones to get things back in shape.
As for the 'sound' problems, your son needs to COMPENSATE from note to note on a clarinet........it's not a piano (a tuner doesn't come in and magically make everything sound great for eight octaves). Short tube notes will sound weaker, some notes will be typically flat, others sharp. It is the MUSICIAN that smooths these things out.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-15 17:39
yaseungkim wrote:
> My young son plays much more consistently and plays much
> longer, considerably longer on his Yamaha ycl-255 (a plastic)
> without stopping. But he knows there are difference in the
> sound quality between wood and plastic.
>
Well, he knows there are differences in sound between his YCL 255 and whatever wood clarinet he's comparing it to. There can be - almost certainly are - significant design differences. How much sound difference is related to the material? Hard to say.
> I don't know the exact changes in dimensions as I never
> measured them, but the tech tells me it is normal for a key to
> be feeling unresponsive/slow to respond at times due to changes
> in wood dimensions.
I have a "rosewood" clarinet that does change as the temperature and humidity change. I've just had to free up a couple of keys that were binding, presumably because of the very cold weather we're having and the resulting increase in dry air being sent up by our heater. I've never had this happen with grenadilla clarinets that I've owned.
By the way, lots of my students with plastic clarinets have keys that stick - no idea if it's the weather or something else.
>
> What gets me is, my son will play a phrase then will stop, and
> I look at him... and he will complain it didn't play that way
> yesterday but it's doing something else today, he says one of
> the note didn't play right. I take away his wooden clarinet
> and give him the plastic and he will just play on.
>
> But he knows he will audition with wood, and he would like to
> be able to practice with the one he will audition.
>
It's not really possible to tell from here in cyberspace what is changing - all you'll get are guesses, some educated, but none based on seeing and playing the clarinet your son i complaining about. You need a skilled repair technician with the instrument in his hands to diagnose whatever is going on.
Karl
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-02-15 17:54
I live in Vermont and play wood clarinets (R13s). I keep the indoors between 55 and 60-deg F in the winter, and whatever it gets to in the summer. I think I sound pretty much the same day-to-day. Some days are different, but usually I can attribute that to the reed (Vandoren) being messed up somehow. Switching reeds makes a lot of difference. Positioning the reed exactly is pertinent too.
Or, I'm different some days, physically or mentally. That can be a huge difference.
I read something interesting some years ago, maybe on this forum. A famous clarinetist whose name escapes me advised to always assemble the instrument so the barrel and the bell are in the same position every time, i.e., facing the same way. I started doing this using the insignia on each as a guide. Somehow I've gotten the feeling that it does matter, and that the barrel wants to point to 3:30 and the bell to 12:00, so that's how I put 'em together.
I've always wavered between wondering why this works or thinking I'm imagining it. Then I saw another thread on here that mentioned that the bore of the instrument does not retain it's original circular shape - it tends to become oval over years' time. AHA - that might mean that positioning of the parts to align the bores' shapes could matter.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-15 22:25
By the way, the temperature inside is normally maintained between 78 to 80 F, what is fluctuating wildly is the humidity level.... between mid to upper 20 to mid 50s.
I always assemble clarinet with the brand label lined up facing out, no exceptions. And you don't want to get me started on the reed prep rituals we go through.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-16 00:04
I've read some excellent responses. I desire to neither contradict or rehash them, but do want to take a crack at this.
"It appears a lot of people have positive opinion on hard rubber clarinet over a wooden one in this forum."
Poster yaseungkim: While I don't mean to speak for all others, I do think a fair number of us have, more specifcally if I may, developed a positive opinion of rubber clarinets because of Tom Ridenour, or stated alternatively, Ridenour hard rubber clarinets. Although in fairness, Tom's not the only one making clarinets out of hard rubber, or good ones, or great ones.
This deserves explanation, which will also come with some of my opinions:
Many of us have come to the conclusion that the material with which a clarinet is made of is far less importance that the craftsmanship that goes into making it.
This is not to say that clarinets made of Swiss Cheese have equal chances of being excellent instruments as those made out of the Grenadilla wood we've come to in large part to associate with non-entry level clarinets, but that Grenadilla ain't all it's cracked (no pun intended I hope) up to be.
More opinions although more generally accepted ones:
Poster yaseungkim, if you go to Ridenour's website, read the white paper "The Grenadilla Myth." Yes, it comes from a man selling hard rubber clarinets (who also sells a wood model,) but there's truth in it. It's essential message (painting in broad strokes) was that this wood was originally chosen for making clarinets to maximize manufacturer profit more than consumer satisfaction: it could be relatively well machined without pieces breaking (read: retooling cost).
I mean no disrespect to those, like me, who own clarinets made of Grenadilla, nor those who are lucky enough to own clarinets made of Rose- or Box- wood etc. (Full disclosure, I play Buffet and Ridenour and acquire no endorsement (ha, ha, as if!!) consideration for doing so.)
But wood changes shape given the temperatures and humidity its exposed to. For most of us, we accept these changes without issue. Others report legitimate problems.
Compound this with the fact that it's generally recognized that Grenadilla harvesting hasn't historicaly been managed as well as it should've been, and that demand for this wood exceeds supply, and we find, adjusted for inflation, wood clarinet prices going up, all while their wood quality suffers. To those who feel otherwise, talk to Francois Kloc, Buffet's USA rep. At this point not even Buffet denies that the wood from an R13 from, say, the 1960s, is only equalled today by buying an R13 Prestige (as opposed to a regular R13). (I'm concerned more with the durability of the wood than sound here, although to deny they are part in parcel: a cracked clarinet "don't play so good" would be false.)
More to point, Buffet would not have marketed their Greenline clarinets if pure Grenadilla (or other clarinet woods), as opposed to its shavings mixed with epoxy (i.e. Greenline) was the only way a fine clarinet could be made. I suspect the cost and availabilty of this wood played a factor too.
Hard rubber is dimentionally stable across temperature and humidity. It's easier to machine at tighter tolerances, and stay that way.
And plastic? Well if materials don't matter, why are plastic clarinets inferior? My answer is craftsmanship, profit and market perception. To rephrase, people associate plastic as an inferior material (for clarinets). Clarinet makers don't want to put craftsmanship (i.e. money) into a clarinet they can only fetch so much money for given the stigma of plastic. Still more, they don't want to address the issue of having to explain why they didn't introduce professional plastic instruments sooner if these instruments turn out great, givng us higher priced wood instruments that may not have performed better all along.
"Are there any known clarinettist from a major orchestra outfit who plays a rubber clarinet?"
Yes, but I suspect not anywhere near the majority, and that Ted/Tom Ridenour may be able to fill you in here, in addition to other hard rubber clarinet makers.
But more important than this, understand that unlike the big 4 (Buffet, Selmer, Yahama, and LeBlanc) Ridenour compensates no professional artists for using their instruments. When you consider that they'd have to raise instrument prices to fund endorsers and still clear the same profit, perhaps consumers can see this as a feature rather than a deterrent.
I feel the need to balance this. I think that hard rubber and the Ridenour quality for price model is something I wish other clarinet makers did as well. But there are many fine clarinet makers out there.
"I ask this because inconsistencies in wooden clarinet is driving my 12 yo son crazy. His biggest complaint is that the clarinet plays and sound differently everyday."
Maybe you should buy a Ridenour on trial and see if your son gets better results. One caveat though. As others have already stated better than me, musicians, if nothing else, are people who accept that the only thing that's constant is change. This is not meant to imply a willingness to play on inferior equipment, but rather that many factors, some within ourselves, make play from one moment to next differ. If inconsistency and play and pitch generate more unacceptability in your son than most others, clarinet will challenge that. Reeds constantly give us challenges.
As far as key mechanisms changing....is his teacher noticing this? I pull no punches here sir, and mean zero disrepect either. I am trying to ascertain your son's claims on the spectrum of, on the one hand, totally legitimate gripes, to, on the other hand, a pronounced sensitivity to change. I admit I am working in the dark here.
Another area I work from a point of ignorance on, and hope others can chime in on, is "how much does it really matter if someone nails an audition, but does so "only on a Bundy clarinet."
"He can hear the slightest difference in tone and it frustrates him if it is not perfect."
It's easy for me to throw slogans at you like "make peace with imperfection." Getting a 12 year old to truly appreciate this is hard. Please know that I appreciate and respect your frustration, not just his.
I think the world of the clarinetist Stanley Drucker, former principal for the NY Philharmonic and its longest member. "Legend" doesn't begin to describe him.
But some say his intonation was never his strong suit. Perhaps if you pull up what little on youtube is available for him (Weber Concertino I think) your son can hear that he's not perfect in this area either.
If I am not mistaken, the very nature of how clarinets came to be designed, forgetting the materials they are made with, is such that tradeoffs exist at every twist and turn of their design. Make note "Y" sound better through design, and risk note "X" suffering in the process.
"He will stop, redo, and gripe that the clarinet is not playing like it did yesterday. "
And even if you go out and buy a Ridenour, and he loves every aspect of its play, at some point, he will bump into another clarinet obstacle, my guess being reeds, or "the amount of sleep he got last night" (i.e. the human factor.)
Poster yaseungkim: sit your son down with this video and make him watch it with intensity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhP1b6E6MxI
Repeat this action every now and then when he gripes.
Julian Bliss, as gifted as he is humble talks about how to practice, and what to expect of practice. Disappointment like you son has comes from situations in which expectations are not being met. I suggest he listens to this and revise his expectations down. Clarinet players often take 2 steps forward and 3 back on any given day. I will work on a difficult passage for a week, working on day 1 with the metronome from 60 - 100 bpm, then day 2, 62 - 102, and then on day 3, 60 - 70. Advances only look linear on the graph that tracks months and years, not days and weeks.
"By the way, when you say breathing or voicing techniques, I don't know what you mean."
Let me give you an example. Perhaps the only thing that people won't disagree with me here on, and still have cogent arguments, is that the more mouthpiece we take in, the slightly sharper notes become. This is not to suggest taking in so much mouthpiece that he squeaks, or to thrwart any attempts of his teacher to not introduce such techniques yet, not as a testament to her ignorance or teaching imcompetance, but rather, that these are advances many players don't get to until college level instruction and that she may not want to introduce yet.
"one day i asked him to teach my son the proper embouchure, and he just chuckled at me and says he has fine tone)."
Maybe his embouchure was fine for his age. Perfect embouchures won't buy you perfect intonation or articulation (tonguing notes). Maybe the teacher saw your question as "why haven't we taught him how to drive yet," and felt it best to only "introduce him the vehicle's controls." Maybe the teacher was a jerk. I profess to working blind here.
"But he never taught my young son how to play piano correctly."
I hear where you are coming from (no pun intended) sir. Allow me to point out another imperfect cog in the system: teachers--as much as this teacher may have had his reasons, and I wasn't there at the time.
"The clarinet is nature's way of showing us that the world is imperfect and tough, but its beauty, worth the fight."
...just made that up.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-16 00:11
Reed preparation won't keep the reeds from feeling different at varying humidity levels. If the humidity in your home is constantly changing, that is a very likely reason why your son is having trouble with tone being slightly different every day - unfortunately, this is just part of being a clarinetist. Clarinet is the wrong instrument for someone who wants perfect tone and intonation every single day without having to adjust how they play the instrument. (This is true of most reed instruments actually - from what I understand, double reeds have it especially bad.)
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-16 01:57
Post Edited (2015-02-16 01:58)
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-16 01:57
>12 yo son
He is really young , at this age playing a clarinet is not an easy job.
It is not an easy job even for a mature male to play in an orchestra.
Elaboration of a proper embouchure may take some time, and until it is done,
there will be "changes" in sound and feeling different about response of the instrument.
Does he play regularly long tones with a tuner? (at least 30 minutes daily)
It really helps stabilizing intonation and guarantees response on any clarinet
in working condition.
> My son says, blow soft? She says nope, proper way to play piano on your clarinet is to blow small stream of air fast
To tell you the truth, for me both expressions are about the same. "Small stream" refers in anyway to the intensity of blowing air, "fast" too. So it is an explanation which does not explain much. But in anyway, if it works for your son, great.
To prevent the instrument from drying out you may use a humidifier that is usually kept in the instrument case (like a dampit or a slightly wet sponge). Oiling can be used too. It adds more elasticity to the wood.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-16 03:01
maxopf: "Clarinet is the wrong instrument for someone who wants perfect tone and intonation every single day without having to adjust how they play the instrument"
One thing I must say to all the comments here is this. My son started to take piano lessons at 5 yo. Before he chose clarinet, I played music from youtube on different instruments for him to hear how they sound, after hearing different instruments, he selected clarinet.
I asked why he chose clarinet, he says nothing sounds as beautiful as clarinet... he didn't choose clarinet because he thought it's an easy instrument to learn or master, but because it is the most beautiful sounding instrument in his perfect pitch ears.
After learning of Mozart 's opinion on clarinet, and what Mozart thought of clarinet, I was reassured that my son chose wisely.
I say to my son as he prepares for competitions, just say to yourself, you are bringing to the competition the most beautiful music ever composed by the master among masters in history of mankind... all you have to do is to play the way you practice at home and you will win !!!
If the jury does not select you a winner than they are biased against clarinet or they don't know how to appreciate the masterpiece.
I think somebody mentioned whether or not if his teacher commented on slow responding keys, and I realized she never did... then again, I realized my son's been taking plastic clarinet to lessons last two weeks. His A clarinet is too new, his Bb was at the shop.
Post Edited (2015-02-16 06:47)
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-02-16 10:48
Since I can't sleep, I'll add a bit more to the topic of the clarinet playing differently on different days. Caveat, I'm self-teaching, so anything I pronounce here comes from my personal perceptions of experience and impossible-to-shutup imagination. Regulars here are mostly much more qualified, and they are both tolerant and polite about differing views. Anyway . . .
The linkage between the upper and lower joints. If this is not working right, there will be problems of tone resistance and intonation. That's because a pad on either joint cannot close properly. This can happen if the joints are misaligned or if the cork in the linkage is the wrong thickness. The cork can become worn and thinner over time, and as it does, the alignment gets more picky. I check it when I notice problems I've come to associate with the linkage (hence it's in the "day-to-day" category). One of my clarinets is now needing the linkage cork fixed, but I'm temporarily getting by with aligning it "just so". In the past I've used Gods Great Gift of duct tape to shore up a worn linkage cork until I got the thing to my repairman (ah, months later.) The linkage can be checked by playing the clarion Bb with the forked fingering - if that sounds wrong then it's likely the linkage has a problem.
Cork grease. The parts of the clarinet should assemble without binding. They should not stick while twisting - they should be able to be turned smoothly. To my mind, binding indicates tension in the assembly, and that will reduce how freely it vibrates, and I think my instruments sound better if I grease the corks enough. Just enough, not too much. Grease minimally, and only when you notice any binding on assembly. That's every few days for me. You certainly don't want the joints too free, as then they might turn while the instrument is being used (see previous paragraph). Note, make sure none of the joints are too loose and wobble etc., which probably means new corks are needed.
Reed placement again. The reed seems to need repositioning after the instrument gets warmed up. Typically it seems to need to move a tiny bit higher up the face of the mouthpiece toward the tip. I think this is because the mouthpiece, reed, and ligature have different coefficients of thermal expansion. Note, I wet the reed in a cup of tap water, not my mouth, so that may be a factor here. I start out with the reed positioned correctly, then after playing a few minutes I loosen the ligature screw - and I feel the setup move, as a binding tension is released. Binding of anything affects vibration, and not for the better. So, I've gotten used to repositioning because the reed position is picky and to remove binding. I see on Youtube that Ricardo Morales, before he demonstrates something after talking, repositions his reed, though I certainly can't speak for why he does it.
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2015-02-16 11:46
yaseungkim: I certainly didn't mean to literally suggest that your son chose the wrong instrument - as a matter of fact he chose very well. Sorry if I came across like that. All I meant by that statement was that no matter how consistent (or not) our instruments and reeds are, clarinet is a difficult instrument to play exactly in tune/tone every day, for by nature it is an instrument of tone/tuning compromises, and it is also totally subject to atmospheric conditions and our own physical conditions. It's an instrument that necessitates being flexible on a day-to-day basis. That's all.
Post Edited (2015-02-16 11:53)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-16 15:08
no one can expect an "analogue" (vs digital) instrument to respond the same day after day.
May I suggest you stop worrying about wood, plastic and reeds and just play the darn thing. If mid-audition a tone doesn't come out right, you can't simply stop playing, can you? Or if you bump your reed tip against your teeth when resuming playing after a phrase break, you just have to play through, whether you like your tone or not.
If perfect pitch and own standards are obstructing you, then, maybe, the clarinet isn't the best choice ever.
So, relax. Play. Enjoy the music. Stop worrying.
--
Ben
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-16 19:02
"May I suggest you stop worrying about wood, plastic and reeds and just play the darn thing"
If you have been playing the instrument for 2 1/2 years and wanted to compete with pianists and string players as well as other woodwind in competitions, you'd want to hear what other clarinettists do to make their music, not just blow your horn. You've been taking lessons, you've watched others play on youtube, now it's time to listen to others who's been doing this for their entire life...
As for analogue vs digital, I know I would prefer analogue over digital. This is why people go see orchestra, opera and other Broadway shows and pay premium for them.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-16 19:50
Reading this forum for a couple of years and getting a lot of great information from it (thank you!), I could not help write in response to yaseungkim, since our situation is quite similar.
My son also started to play piano at 5, and after completing his grade 8 RCM piano exam at 11 and listening to other instruments he chose clarinet for his beautiful sound (we were a bit constrained to band instruments by school).
With the great teacher, he progressed quite fast, passing grade 8 RCM clarinet exam after 2 years. He enjoyed starting to play with the Youth Orchestra at the local symphony; he also plays in the Youth Concert Band, often on E-flat (as lovely and quirky this little one is).
With the earlier piano training he has some "absolute pitch" (I would not know the precise meaning of this term now - but he can easily identify piano notes and distinguish ~3-4 cents in similar sounds played next to each other). With clarinet, he opted to "relax" and accepts 5-7 cts deviation. With his quite open mouthpiece, adjusting with a tuner is not any problem - but there is no quest for perfection
In those few years, with many-many hundreds of different reeds, different mouthpieces, barrels, clarinet adjustments (which I had to learn a bit since curiously we live 100 km from competent technicians), etc, we thought it would be just a matter of the first stages of training. Yet the further you go - the more challenging it becomes...
Those altissimo notes are ever a challenge - sensitive to weather, reeds, etc (not hitting them, but getting them reproducibly and nicely sounding, especially with the register changing). Definitely, it is very challenging to young people.
But then, if to think about it, the same challenge is for professional clarinetists as well - I've heard a lot of deadly criticism for top professional clarinetists, especially in chamber playing - for the pitch, for specific notes, etc.
So it feels there is a great difference between playing for enjoyment and aiming at the performance level, which is not our case, so those remediation hours with Rose is not a viable option. As one of the famous clarinetists remarked something like: "repeat it fifty hundred times and it will sound perfect". Sure it will, especially if your learn to play with a very hard reed on a very open mouthpiece
All in all, my son now picked a string instrument and enjoys it enormously being more tolerant to imperfection, so we are off clarinet battle...
Definitely a positive perspective: if your son persists through - he would be very much appreciated and in demand as a youth clarinetist and beyond!
(I am not surprised now that in my son's Youth Orchestra, he is now the only younger clarinetist, the rest are university students).
P.S. No matter what, my son will definitely enjoy playing clarinet in his life - the clarinet is beautiful as it is, and we've also discovered it is the best instrument for klezmer
Post Edited (2015-02-16 19:54)
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-16 20:01
Yes, competing on clarinet is so much harder. Spending at least twice less time with piano vs. clarinet, it was much easy for my son to win competition in playing piano solo with the Youth Orchestra rather than clarinet (Grieg Piano Concerto & Weber Concertino). The same 2.5 years into clarinet.
Post Edited (2015-02-16 20:26)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-16 21:01
yaseungkim:
The last thing I want to do here is create some sort of witch hunt mentality against you. This bboard is open to all, including dad's (like you) with keen interest in their kid's progression. Bravo to you that you are so involved (although I feel involvement should have limits--not that I am saying you have crossed them yet--I suspect not--and simply don't know.)
Bravo to you that you are keeping you boy on the "straight and narrow," pursuing fine arts over spending that time on video games, worse, petty crimes. From the stories you've conveyed, you suggested to me an American dream story within your own lineage, about how the generations of a family improve their standard of living through education and hard work, and then provide time/love and money to the next generation.
=========
Now--as you probably guessed, its time for the "tough love."
"he says nothing sounds as beautiful as clarinet..."
Sir, I can show you videos of clarinet players on youtube that are so bad, they should be considered part of our country's interrogation tactics with captured known terrorists.
I hope he heared those too so that he could make an informed decision.
Yes---as a lover of the instrument, I too am thrilled to hear wonderful play. But I wonder if your son has heard the broad spectrum of clarinet play, from ugly to virtuosic. As you may realize, paradox exists within the choice of a young artist to take up an instrument having just heard a master perform it: the child can quickly grow frustrated in their inability to achieve such results in a short time. Speaking personally, I was able to counterbalance growing up, the fact that I wasn't professional grade, by how much more advanced I was in secular school than most of the other muscians.
(I don't mean that to sound arrogant. MOST of us here were better than most of our grade school peers.)
"he didn't choose clarinet because he thought it's an easy instrument to learn or master, but because it is the most beautiful sounding instrument in his perfect pitch ears."
Poster yaseungkim, you may have just contradicted yourself here. Granted, your son may have fallen in love with the unique signature of tones (i.e. harmonics) produced by the clarinet, but if he has all the perfect pitch you've described, and is bothered by music out of perfect tune in not only himself but others, I can't see clarinet being the first instrument that comes to his mind as one to study.
(I play with educators in music therapy. We've had discussions about Williams Syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome and how many afflicted (by NO means am I suggesting your son) have acute perfect pitch, which suggests the cautious introduction of the clarinet's sound, and its pitch/intonation inadequancies to some with the diagnosis.)
Every clarinet player makes compromises with pitch. Of course some do it brilliantly, and all do it with varying degrees of success.
"I say to my son as he prepares for competitions, just say to yourself, you are bringing to the competition the most beautiful music ever composed by the master among masters in history of mankind... all you have to do is to play the way you practice at home and you will win !!!"
That's a great confidence builder, and having confidence in your play is key, but at some point he may realize that such statements may not be, and mostly likely aren't true, at which point they may become counterproductive.
Unless he has the makings of Julian Bliss, someone may come along who is better; probably older than him--but this person could be the same age or even younger. And that's just life as (the parent of) a young musician.
"If the jury does not select you a winner than they are biased against clarinet or they don't know how to appreciate the masterpiece."
Or, somebody played better, maybe even the same piece, or one more difficult than the Mozart that many might not consider as beautiful, or has a larger number of pieces under their belt (likely because they are older, ) or double tongued their way through articulation and circular breathed...terms you and your son may not (justifiably so) even have learned the meaning of yet, much less mastered.
By the way, upset in a prior post that you missed a McGill Master class on the Mozart, have your son watch this from a post a few weeks ago. The term, "daisies are growing in my yard," a wonderful metaphor for the piece's first movement's light central theme will never seem the same again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mer3Y2BcHik
=====
yaseungkim, please, for the sake of your son---and by no means am I saying this isn't the case, make sure he can throw a baseball without others noting inadequacy in the throw (take that literally and as a metaphor.) He's 12. He's probably still growing, maybe in (or will be in) braces, not had his wisdom teeth removed yet, or dare I say, beginning to discover the opposite sex.
The goal is to raise a young man, using clarinet to demonstrate discipline, hard work, grace in winning and losing, beauty, long term devotion to difficult tasks, and the teamwork of ensemble play.
Throwing a Tosca or a Ridenour to nearly any 12 year old wont be the solution.
One more piece of tough love that I sometimes fail at: don't encourage whining. I'm not saying to punish it; just ignore it. Don't give it validity. Over time, for most kids, the behavior will extinguish itself when it doesn't ellicit desired results. If he puts the intsrument down in frustration, maybe ignoring him doing so might be good. If he looks at you, say nothing and shrug your shoulders.
I apologize if anything I said is taken by you as offensive. That's not my goal. Rather, it's to help you raise a well rounded and responsible adult through clarinet, and dare I say, have him enjoy playing our beloved instument.
Post Edited (2015-02-16 21:29)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-17 00:17
yaseungkim wrote:
> If you have been playing the instrument for 2 1/2 years and
> wanted to compete with pianists and string players as well as
> other woodwind in competitions...
This may be where some of us have lost our connection to your concerns. Many of us who took (and still take) playing the clarinet seriously, have made it a large part of our adult work lives, maybe even devoted ourselves exclusively to playing and teaching music, had and have no ambition to participate in those competitions against pianists, violinists and cellists. Many of us as students had goals of playing in orchestras or chamber ensembles or theater pit orchestras at a professional level with no thought of entering competitions apart from the auditions against other clarinetists for those ensemble positions.
If your son's goal is to win competitions, his road will be very difficult and his approach to playing will be very different from those hoping for a career or even an avocation as a serious, high level ensemble performer. I don't know everyone's background here on the BB, but I'd bet that most haven't ever felt driven in the direction you've described.
He will need an excellent clarinet - chosen not for its material but for the way it supports his own musical ideas. He will need to learn to deal with the vagaries of reeds and the idiosyncrasies of mouthpieces because they come with the instrument. To play consistently beautifully, he will need to be infinitely flexible and find ways to overcome whatever daily issues come up. In the end, the pianists will always have an edge - they can play many more notes at a time, produce a far greater dynamic palette and have a larger repertoire of available literature to pick from than we do as clarinetists.
And if they play out of tune, it's the piano tuner's fault, not the pianist's.
Karl
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-02-17 00:47
Speaking as a "young" (Freshman in High School, definetly older than 12, but younger than colleges players by quite a bit) clarinetist myself, I would like to make a few remarks. The clarinet does need a good set of equipment to play to it's full potential, but the very essence of playing is that YOU are playing. I have my own slew of problems, but those will take time to work out. In the meantime I work on my own musicianship. Playing with soul and expression. Without either of those then the music will be missing it's meaning. It's up to the player to do those, not the clarinet.
Lastly, I personally vote you let him find his own will to work out his issues with intonation and clarinet in general. I'm not saying don't support him, but let him discipline himself and find his own love for music and as an effect, the clarinet.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-17 00:49
kdk wrote:
> And if they play out of tune, it's the piano tuner's fault, not
> the pianist's.
I have been thinking, considering the OP's son and his "absolute perfect pitch", what a horrible affliction that must be. Because, of course, the accompaniment to the clarinet might be a piano, which may have been tuned to a different base "A", and that of course the piano has been tuned in one of the many tunings to make a piano sound pleasant and "right". Along with what we all know to be true when playing with other instruments - "even tempered" tuning, what many tuners show, is most certainly incorrect in many places when you're placing the note in the chordal structure, and even "perfect" tunings have multiple variants as to where you should place the note.
Or god forbid you're playing along with an ensemble that contains a pipe organ ... which changes it's own tuning and relationships as the concert goes on! The last pedal note on a recording of Also Sprach Zarathustra I own is horribly out of tune - even to me! I wonder how out of tune it was at the beginning of the recording session ...
If one were to remain "on pitch" perfectly through a concert with others, no matter whether one is right or one is wrong, one would most probably stand out after a time because most ensembles' pitch wanders slightly over time, and the correct tuning would seem to be incorrect in relationship to everyone else.
What an affliction! I am not in the least amount being sarcastic, because I do know one person who has "absolute perfect pitch", and the person has problems with many ensembles and music because it never sounds quite right to them.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-17 01:29
I've always wondered about "perfect pitch" in many of the same ways. I think the musicians I know *do* find it an affliction that they have to learn to deal with. One oboist I know tried dabbling in clarinet at one time and tells me she couldn't stand looking at (and playing) a note from the page and hearing the wrong pitch - a step lower - come out.
I've always wondered what the developmental process is. Obviously, if it were an instinctual skill, inborn whole and needing no nurture from the environment, there's absolutely no reason to suppose it would be based on equal temperament nor any reason for it to be based on an identification of a 7-note scale based on A=440 Hz. What must people go through, who are born with whatever inborn ability is involved and have grown up in Asian or African musical cultures that don't use our western scales, when they come to a European or American environment?
But we're in danger of hi-jacking the OP's thread.
Karl
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2015-02-17 02:31
I have a friend that is one of the top clarinet players in the world and he has perfect pitch. He said that it is very annoying because car horns, doorbells, and other tonal devices that he hears are not in tune.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-17 02:57
Haha, when you talk to my son, he will tell you the pitch your speaking in ...
Just the other day, my son's music school director tells me that they signed up my son to participate in an open competition in april, happening on the same day as the semi-closed competition I was thinking. .. and I will decline the open competition that let's pianist to compete. One I was thinking does not allow pianists to compete.
As for those readers that are confused or find disconnect as I am seeking out to put my son in competitions and say why... why not just play clarinet for the love of music?
Well, if you are an athlete, would you not want to compete and find out how good you are? Same thing.... I want my son to know where he stack up against others before it's too late. Shift your gears and go do something you can reliably succeed in, as in your career choice if your not among the best musicians. In the meantime time don't stop dreaming and reaching out to your goals. My son's original goal in music is to compose music and arrange music, while forming and leading chamber orchestra as a vocational hobby for his church.
Post Edited (2015-02-17 03:48)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-17 03:05
"What an affliction!"
Not to beat a dead horse, but again, I think Neurologists have much to learn about how people with high pitch accuity not only struggle with, but process tone, from the study of those afflicted with Williams Syndrome.
https://williams-syndrome.org/teacher/music-and-williams-syndrome
Oh, and car horns: often two distinct horns of dissonant pitch, whose less than pleasant nature is designed as such for attention getting reasons.
Post Edited (2015-02-17 03:08)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 08:59
Ok, I found the root cause and the fix.... to my son's issues.
Problem was not the wooden or the synthetic clarinet.
Rather the problem was the mouth piece.
My son had played 5RV lyre for nearly over 2 years, and around dec/Jan I changed his MP to M15. While m15 allowed him to produce centered and clear sound, we did not know that he was losing control and he was doing nothing but fighting the MP to gain control rather than just playing music. When I changed it to M13 lyre, he tells me he felt at ease and never had to fight to feel in control... he says he was able to relax and was able to just play music like he used to when he was playing 5rv lyre.
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2015-02-19 15:10
But you said he couldn't play on the wood, but played fine on the plastic clarinet. Wasn't he using the same mouthpiece?
This whole thread is confusing and frustrating. yaseungkim - are you a clarinetist yourself?
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 19:28
He was using 5rv lyre on his plastic clarinet...
As for me, I don't even know how to play a simple scale on clarinet. This is a true confession, I have never blown into a clarinet mouth piece in my life, and I am not a musician.
I assemble/disassemble clarinet (wooden ones) for my son and I spend about an hour everyday polishing the keys for him, and I let my son do everything on his plastic clarinet as far as assembly/disassembly is concerned. But I don't let him take his wooden clarinet(s) to school, ever.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 19:37)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-19 19:34
Poster yaseungkim:
I'm happy your son feels more in control with a M13 Lyre. Still more, mouthpieces are certainly one of the first place to look to address issues, so I don't want to stifle people's receptiveness to gear change, particular in this component of play.
That said, I'm going to dispense some tough love. You may know it already, but I want you to realize it (there's a difference) if you don't. This goes for anyone, but especially for a 12 year old (even an advanced or highly advanced one) for which your interest as a dad lies:
We love talking about gear here. Gear is, for lack of a better word: interesting. And who doesn't like new toys: a Dampit for their clarinet, this new synthetic reed, a "revolutionary" new ligature. But do bear in mind that these are often the discussions of advanced players seeking the most marginal gains on their play through equipment change: people taking a break from playing/practicing to sit back and "kick the tires" here.
Most 12 year olds, heck, most players, need to sit themselves down behind an open page of "Klose" (a famous study guide particularly for intro players) and work on its exercises with meticulous precision, slowing down the metronome enough at first to concentrate on finger/mouth detail work, and the coordination between them, while maintaining proper form. THAT is where improvements are truly made.
(Klose is only one fine manual of many. It does NOT necessarily speak poorly of your son's teacher if she is not using it.)
That you're taking your son barrel shopping, great: a nice way for father and son to bond, and maybe you'll also end up with a better barrel....but not standard fair for a 12 year old, even one with keen abilities and interest, and parents willing/able to indulge that talent/passion.
Let me share with you an example of what I'm talking about. In another post, you seemed almost...apologetic regarding your choice to merely furnish your son with a solid Yamaha A clarinet, as opposed to his Buffet Bb.
Yamaha makes GREAT instruments. And while so does Buffet, many of us feel (present company included) that you have to try a lot of them to find the top ones.
Yes--a purist would say that a matching pair of clarinets is best. But a pragmatist like me is amazed that a 12 year even has, or needs an "A" clarinet. Is he doing orchestral work that requires it? Still more, and maybe this was born out of ignorance (not stupidity, ignorance: simply not knowing, but educatable) you were talking Tosca's the other day. Yes--I realize the whole pitch issue that motivated this.
I assure you this is not "sour grapes" talking. But your son doesn't need a Tosca. Give him something to work for. There are better and cheaper places for clarinet money right now.
And if I may preempt the "and why shouldn't my child have the best to play on," my answer will be "for the same reason that your don't make his first automobile a Mazarati." I believe that you should save that money for one day when he can truly descern what differences if any such a model has to offer him.
(Poster's note: I am saying things below that are obvious to many of you and may seem condescending as a result. They are not. The poster to which I respond is the father of a young clarinet player.)
As you may know sir, (I wish to neither insult your intelligence nor talk above your knowledge base) our half step lower cousin the "A" clarinet exists not only because pieces were written for it (plenty of which have been transposed to Bb clarinet, like the prior thread discussed Mozart Concerto), and because it can go a half step lower than the Bb, but because by having two clarinets to choose from that are a half a step lower at your disposal, it is less likely that you will have to face music with "7 sharps or flats." I will spare you the music theory (theory is a misnomer here, it's more "musical fact" for Western octave music) behind this.
Stanley Drucker is one of the most gifted and well recognized clarinet players bar none (although just one example.) Through first and second hand accounts, he was reported to play anything--do a entire study book a week. Ask him about his ligature and he'll tell you its the one that came with the clarinet. He played one mouthpiece: granted a cherished one that his teacher Russianoff gave him, but one that by no means would anyone of us become Drucker simply if we played it.
I have these visions that if Mr. Russianoff was alive today: an affable man with strong opinions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edo1S1UUd14 that he'd say to his students, with tough love, and I mean this with no disrespect toward the bboard:
"get your a** off this computer 'interweb' thing and into Etude 12 of Rose 2 that I assigned you! I want it at 110 [bpm]! "
Morale: and one you may follow:
1) Meaningful practice out of well known study guides. The exercices and notes in them were very well thought out for a reason. Repetition. Practicing the next solo piece is great, but never a substitute for etude work.
2) Life outside of clarinet, and
3) a distant third, gear.
As for places where money I think is well spent: lets talk about
http://smartmusic.com and https://sightreadingfactory.com/, and http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/ATG1.html, none of of which I am affiliated with.
Time for me to practice what I preach.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 19:50
whiteplainsdave: it is less likely that you will have to face music with "7 sharps or flats."
I have never seen or heard of a music piece with 7 sharps or flats, ever (not that I am saying I have seen them all), but my son has played a piece that had either 6 sharps or flats in his orchestra music piece. If you wanted to see it, I will email them to you. After the maestro gave me the sheet music, he apologized and re-did the arrangement in Key of A. Maestro always emails the new sheet music to the parents every week.
Other than, that, you begin to loose me when you get in your soapbox and I stop reading your post about half way down, or stop paying attention to you.
Han Kim, owns a tosca and played it while he was 13 (or 11 ???)... go to youtube and see what and how he plays, a nice role model for my 12 yo.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 20:21)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-19 21:22
yaseungkim wrote:
> Other than, that, you begin to loose me when you get in your
> soapbox and I stop reading your post about half way down, or
> stop paying attention to you.
That's too bad. He has much to offer you in a much more polite tone than I would take at this point.
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Author: vin
Date: 2015-02-19 21:34
Amazing. Posters who know so, so, so much more than you do, taking the time to share their knowledge, and you couldn't be bothered to read and consider their posts. The best soloists and musicians, including names which you know little of but are content to cite, are humble and never pass up an opportunity to learn. To those of us who know how to play at a professional level, whether it is our career or not, you have no idea what the point of music is and clearly have no desire to learn. Frankly, it's not worth anyone's time to help you as you clearly already know everything. I'm out.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 21:37
Mark Charette: That's too bad. He has much to offer you in a much more polite tone than I would take at this point.
There are opinions based on facts, which are worthy of listening to. There are opinions based on feelings and bias, which is not worth my time. If you try to tell me that as a well seasoned and experience musician, you need that better quality equipment for some marginal improvement, but as a 12 yo you don't ? I beg to differ in that opinion, if anything, that 12 yo will need every advantage he can get.
As Ricardo Morales says, "life is too short for compromises... demand the best within your means"
You sit in your high horse and say you need that marginal improvement but others don't, what makes you so special ? I say level the playing field. Anyways, let me get out of my soapbox.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-19 22:12
yaseungkim wrote:
> You sit in your high horse and say you need that marginal
> improvement but others don't, what makes you so special ? I
> say level the playing field. Anyways, let me get out of my
> soapbox.
Dear sir,
I never said that. What I said was essentially - your son needs to play, not screw around with marginal improvements that don't help him become a musician. I've been down this road already with my son. I spent my fortune sending him to a boarding school that specializes in music. It was money well spent, but as we found out, equipment didn't matter nearly as much as practice with an excellent teacher - and an excellent studio. He became a little fish in a big pond - and the best musicians in the studio (mainly from eastern Europe and Russia) most certainly did not have the best equipment to start. They had the most work time with good teachers, the most practice time, and an ability to listen to what the teacher had to offer as guidance in their chosen field.
That, sir, is a fact.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-19 22:16
Poster yaseungkim: I respect your right to different opinions. Nobody forces me to offer mine, and accordingly, I do my best to take it all in stride, knowing I can't be all things to all people. Sorry if that was the case for you.
Rest assured that should I choose to respond to your posts in the future that I will do so, as I have, with what I truly believe is in your son's best interest, as a result of knowledge I've acquired from my teachers, my experience, and places like this bboard. There is no single place on earth (quite literally) with more information on clarinets than here, not to mention, the "price is right."
Please do not read between the lines on what I am about to say, but I have a suggestion that might make everyone happy. If you haven't done so already, you may enjoy using the bboard's search future to look up topics. It's a great way to immediately get many opinions. And that is not to say that if you bring up a topic in a new thread that's already been discussed, that if I choose to help you, that I won't do so "with a smile," as the goal here is to promote the clarinet to all. Plus, I think we're all guity of such actions from time to time: I know I am.
I wish you continued success at not so much getting your son to be a great clarinetist, but the IMHO far loftier goal of getting him, first and foremost, to love the instrument.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 22:47
Don't you see some some of the comments are downright insulting ?
How do you know my 12 yo does not need a clarinet in Key of A ? An orchestra my 12 yo is auditioning for this June requires a clarinet in key of A, either you have it, or don't even bother audition is their position. One of the audition requirement is that you play an excerpt in key of a from Rimsky-Korsakov.
You don't even know my son and start offering opinion based on your assumptions as to what he should do or should not do is just preposterous.
You don't know how he plays music, you don't know what extra curriculum he participates in school or in the neighborhood, you have no idea who his music teacher is, what caliber musician she is, what music school he attend, the caliber of students there... you don't have any facts to start offering opinions that are not sought after.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-02-19 22:50
yaseungkim: "My son had played 5RV lyre for nearly over 2 years, and around dec/Jan I changed his MP to M15."
yaseungkim: "I have never blown into a clarinet mouth piece in my life, and I am not a musician."
Sounds to me like you are too involved. Not only from the above, but from an accumulation of things you have posted.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 23:05
Philip Caron: Sounds to me like you are too involved
What yard stick do you use to gauge whether you are too involved or too little, or just enough ? Or, is this one of those shooting from hips. If you can't reveal your method of measurement, then the comment has no basis.
Post Edited (2015-02-19 23:26)
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Author: pacherry
Date: 2015-02-19 23:20
I would like to take a moment and thank both the creator of the thread and all of the comments that have been made. I am in much the same situation as yaseungkim, as my 13yr old son is a good clarinet player for his age, but not a virtuoso by any means. However, he has just recently been admitted to that good school that Mark mentioned earlier and we are in the process of looking at upgrading equipment. Up until this post, I had been pulled into the swell of what barrel, mouthpiece, clarinet, etc. he needs to get to be ready. However, this thread has served as a nice sized club upside the head to remind me of what his teacher has said in anticipation of entering a music school. "We'll find the equipment, but what he needs to do right now is spend hours and hours with Baermann and Vadde." Thank you to all of you for reminding me of the difference between what a student of music needs and what they want. All a good clarinet student needs is the same thing that made them a good student; more dedication to practice than their peers.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2015-02-19 23:22
Its sad what this has become.. Its like a soap opera. Just for the record, I appreciate the wonderful knowledge shared on this board, especially when someone posts the answer to a question that I didn't know I had.
AAAClarinet
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-19 23:31
All I can say is this, if a kid practice 2 hours a day and all things being equal, the kid with that marginally better equipment will get the seat in the orchestra/ensemble. If 40 years experienced musician needs that extra help, so does my 12 yo, nuff said.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-20 00:00
> All I can say is this, if a kid practice 2 hours a day and all things being equal,
> the kid with that marginally better equipment will get the seat in the
> orchestra/ensemble.
Whatever that marginally better equipment may be.
You have witnessed what (temporary) havoc adding a simple new variable (a mouthpiece) to the equation (playing the clarinet) can cause. Adding more variables (Ligatures, extra keywork, tuning rings, whatever) will only add to the confusion.
Even a seasoned pro will not arbitrarily shuffle equipment but rather try one new thing at a time, and allow him/herself enough time to become acquainted with the new setup before accepting or rejecting that new gizmo.
My own playing improved drastically once I stopped worrying about equipment and stopped wasting time trying too many new things in too little time.
--
Ben
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Author: brycon
Date: 2015-02-20 00:35
Most accurate thread title of all time!
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 00:35
;)
Reason I switched that simple MP on my son from 5rv lyre to M15 is not because I wanted to cause havoc, it was out of need or necessity. My son had been playing reserve classic & traditional 3.5 and he wanted to move up to 4.0
I asked him why (because I just bought 5 boxes in 3.5), and he says the reed feels too soft when he has to hit those high notes in fortississimo every other Sunday in his orchestra performances. We discovered Grand Concert Select, Thick Blank 3.0 gives great consistency after we got our Yamaha CSV-A this Jan.
I did some research and I came to a conclusion that you should use longer faced MP when moving up to 4.0 strength. I remembered his old teacher saying he should not be playing anything stronger than 3.5 on 5rv lyre (but he never explained why when I asked him). And I said to myself, if I change the reed and MP at the same time, we won't know what the problem is if we encounter a problem. That is the reason why we went to M15 (while keeping the same reed). But I've read some good reviews on M13 lyre, and I saw one of the poster saying how much he liked M13 lyre, so, I decided to give it a try... especially when the local store called me up and said they got the MP in stock, which was not available when we bought M15.
Poster Ben: My own playing improved drastically once I stopped worrying about equipment and stopped wasting time trying too many new things in too little time.
This is why I don't allow my son to engage himself in what equipment he should play other than his reed. My son has never in his life requested that I should get him this or that equipment, except the reed. I never overrule him on reed decisions.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 00:42)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-20 00:59
Your son's teacher should be providing you with the guidance you need in regards to equipment. I suspect if you ask him/her for honest feedback on how you can best support your son's musical journey you might hear something similar to what's been said here. Perhaps you already have, and the teacher agrees with how you are going about this, for reasons that aren't and can't be clear to us here without the knowledge of your particular situation.
Coming here as someone who is not a clarinetist, and then having definitive answers to so many things based on reasoning that may be sound in the face of what you simply do NOT know and CANNOT know without years of experience has understandably ruffled the feathers of some very well-intentioned experts who have tried to help you. Your argumentative responses have fueled that fire.
All well and good if you enjoy that sort of thing. I would simply ask you to consider what would happen if any of us took a similar approach in an online forum in whatever your area of expertise is, assuming we had no actual experience in that field.
Please note that I did not say that you or your son's teacher is wrong in any way, I'm just questioning what you are hoping to gain or contribute here. There's no need to be either argumentative or obsequious, but you are certainly free to be. It does seem a waste of time though, and ultimately it does not help you or your son.
I do support your eagerness and enthusiasm for your son's clarinet project, and hope that with all that energy you also have the wisdom to let it truly be his, and not yours.
Anders
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-20 01:00
Your son's teacher should be providing you with the guidance you need in regards to equipment. I suspect if you ask him/her for honest feedback on how you can best support your son's musical journey you might hear something similar to what's been said here. Perhaps you already have, and the teacher agrees with how you are going about this, for reasons that aren't and can't be clear to us here without the knowledge of your particular situation.
Coming here as someone who is not a clarinetist, and then having definitive answers to so many things based on reasoning that may be sound in the face of what you simply do NOT know and CANNOT know without years of experience has understandably ruffled the feathers of some very well-intentioned experts who have tried to help you. Your argumentative responses have fueled that fire.
All well and good if you enjoy that sort of thing. I would simply ask you to consider what would happen if any of us took a similar approach in an online forum in whatever your area of expertise is, assuming we had no actual experience in that field.
Please note that I did not say that you or your son's teacher is wrong in any way, I'm just questioning what you are hoping to gain or contribute here. There's no need to be either argumentative or obsequious, but you are certainly free to be. It does seem a waste of time though, and ultimately it does not help you or your son.
I do support your eagerness and enthusiasm for your son's clarinet project, and hope that with all that energy you also have the wisdom to let it truly be his, and not yours.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-20 01:02
yaseungkim wrote:
> All I can say is this, if a kid practice 2 hours a day and all
> things being equal, the kid with that marginally better
> equipment will get the seat in the orchestra/ensemble. If 40
> years experienced musician needs that extra help, so does my 12
> yo, nuff said.
Of course, you have no control over the "all things being equal" part. In the end, the kid who plays the better audition will get the seat in the orchestra/ensemble. No matter what equipment he/she plays on (no one judging the audition will care) or, for that matter, how many hours a day he/she practices (what matters is that the practice time spent is productive). Better equipment is not a guarantee of the victory you see as your son's goal.
Karl
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Author: Gunthos
Date: 2015-02-20 01:19
I've been a lurker here for about a month. I really enjoy this forum so far!
Mr Kim:
My son is 11 and can barely play. His band instructor gave up on him. He's not any good and doesn't practice and doesn't want to practice.
I came on the forum looking to either have him quit, or to save his short career. Inspired by the forum, I decided to try to save his career - getting new equipment and forcing him to practice.
Anyway, I've been reading your posts, and they are exactly the questions I would be asking, and they are all interesting!
Please don't let rude people stop you from posting! These are almost all good questions, not in anyway stupid. Many responders are so very polite.
I'll be cheering for you and your son! Don't feel intimidated for being 'too involved' with your sons activities. It's better to be too gung ho than not involved enough. Don't let people you don't know in real life question how 'involved' you should be.
I see you do take a lot of advice from some of your questions, obviously feel free to chose any advice you want, and ignore what you want, the fact you are trying to get advice for your son is GREAT! Go dad! Me, like you, cant really do much but tinker with equipment and it's fun!
My only question for this conversation - reading the forum a lot - is why everyone thinks 'the teacher' is the one you should go to as an end all for equipment advice? It's almost like, since the forum can't come to a decision on what's the best reed, best mouthpiece, that the teacher should settle the issue. My son's current instructor wouldn't even ever try his clarinet, I think the board is a better bet than a lot of teachers for equipment.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-20 01:50
Gunthos, you've asked a good question. Here's how I would answer it: there is no universal ONE best clarinet, reed, ligature, or combination thereof. The right choice is dependent on the goals, tastes, experience level, and unique physiology of the individual player. Anybody who tells you differently is either not sufficiently experienced to be giving valid advise, is trying to sell you something, or perhaps has some other ulterior motive.
The reason the clarinet teacher is the one to turn to with these questions, is because this person is (or should be) an expert in what's available as well as in the highly individualized needs of the student he or she hears individually every week. If you don't trust your teacher with these matters, you don't have the right teacher. That doesn't mean that questions should not be asked and understanding sought. It just means that if you can't rely on the advise being given, you're probably not in the right place.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-02-20 02:13
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=
Post Edited (2015-02-20 11:57)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 02:19
Since you asked how I would feel if you started to join the bboard in my line of work...
If a green newbie starts to make a comment that don't make any sense, I will just smile and won't say anything. If he/she insists his mouse trap he built is far better than mine, I will just produce a bunch of mice trapped in mine. If I can't catch more mice with traps built by me, I will not make any comment.
Poster nellsonic - you said...
"Coming here as someone who is not a clarinetist, and then having definitive answers to so many things based on reasoning that may be sound in the face of what you simply do NOT know and CANNOT know without years of experience has understandably ruffled the feathers of some very well-intentioned experts who have tried to help you. Your argumentative responses have fueled that fire."
Your comment is no different than those made by old guys at my line of work when I first started. They shouted, you are wet behind your ears... is that how it goes ? I could never understand what that meant, nor Am I sure if that's how it goes. But I know I solved far more problems and built far better mouse trap then they ever imagined.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-20 02:26
Gunthos wrote:
> My only question for this conversation - reading the forum a
> lot - is why everyone thinks 'the teacher' is the one you
> should go to as an end all for equipment advice? It's almost
> like, since the forum can't come to a decision on what's the
> best reed, best mouthpiece, that the teacher should settle the
> issue. My son's current instructor wouldn't even ever try his
> clarinet, I think the board is a better bet than a lot of
> teachers for equipment.
Well, for one thing, there really is no single answer to questions asking "what's the best reed, best mouthpiece." So, the best answer should in the best of all possible worlds come from the person who is experienced in selecting equipment and can hear the result of any experiment first hand to decide if the result is good or bad. All anyone here can tell a parent with no experience in playing clarinet is what the responder likes and feels gives a good result.
The genisis of this thread had to do, essentially, with yaseungkim's statement (not a question) that, "It appears a lot of people have positive opinion on hard rubber clarinet over a wooden one in this forum." He then went on to say that his son had a lot of trouble playing consistently on a wood clarinet and none playing on his (rubber? plastic?) one. He wanted to be pointed toward YouTube videos featuring players using hard rubber instruments so that he could ask his son "if he would consider playing it himself."
The thread went off in a couple of different directions when the responses to the issue of wood vs. rubber weren't what I think he expected (or perhaps wanted). From there it evolved (devolved?) into a lot of areas in which the father, a non-player, was leading his son over a path that many responders found increasingly non-productive. Yaseungkim clearly doesn't like the reaction he's gotten.
A parent chooses a private instrument teacher, hopefully, because he or she has confidence in the teacher's experience, knowledge level and competence with the instrument. If the parent doesn't have that confidence, he shouldn't hire the teacher. If the teacher loses the parent's confidence, it's time to find a different teacher. But if the parent has no experience with the instrument, he risks seriously impeding the child's progress by pressing the child in areas the parent knows nothing about. You can go down too many blind alleys needlessly when you make choices based on non-knowledge. A teacher should be able to provide that knowledge and is in the best position to assess the student's needs and the result of any changes.
The issue which you raise about trying to motivate an otherwise uninterested student is a completely different problem from that of trying to guide a possibly gifted and enthusiastic student blindly.
Karl
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 02:48
Dang Karl, what you've expressed is just what I've been feeling the whole time but I could not put it in words myself... for that, thank you.
My son's old teacher appeared to be about 70 yo, and he always said to my son you are among the very best I ever taught. He would make comments like, this passage was never nailed by anyone ever among all students I ever taught but you nailed it in your first try.
Among one of the reasons why we had to walk away from him is because he yelled at me for...
1. When I showed him a solo piece to perform at the church <I did not know the issue at the time> the teacher says the music is in the wrong key, either the pianist has to transpose or the clarinet has to, otherwise you are in the wrong key. I had no idea. He says my son needs to play a step up (or something like that). And when I asked my son to transpose on the fly, the teacher yells at me and says how can you ask an 11 yo to transpose, I was in high school when I first transposed... he says let me re-do the score. But my son played the whole thing through while mentally transposing and playing in correct notes.
2. After about third recital, my son says he wanted to do recital like those professionals, no sheet music in front of them. And when my son said this to his teacher, the teacher yelled at me and called me and my son, "you are nothing but a showboat... I will not be held accountable if he forgets his notes during the recital". After that, just before the recital, he brings out the sheet music on the Manhasset Music Stand. My son refuses the sheet music and there was a seen... and of course, my son finished the entire recital without the sheet music without any issues.
3. This list can go on for a mile...
But I kid you not, he was one of the best musician/clarinetist/pianist I ever met in person.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 02:51)
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Author: Exiawolf
Date: 2015-02-20 02:56
Yaesungkim: The posters here have tried to pass on their knowledge to you with what you have provided to them. Without hearing or seeing your son personally, they can't give you the most accurate info. (This has been posted here quite a bit).
Just shooting out a wild idea, but maybe if you posted here a video or audio clip of something he plays, then they can MAYBE give a slightly better idea of where to go. There are so many different top of the line clarinets out there that suit different concepts of sound. If your son is as advanced as you have conveyed, then that audio clip would help in having a more advanced discussion, opposed to just shooting out into the dark. Even then though, the people he meets and sees in-person will be able to analyze his playing more clearly than through an online forum (Which would lead to better solutions for what you're trying to solve)
And I truly mean this in a positive way. Its not that it's "unbelievable" or that we don't want to accept that your son is a truly amazing musician. But that the questions presented here require more to answer than just hearing of accomplishments or complaints.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 02:59)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 03:05
I think Karl from Langhorne, PA summed up everything. Thanks Karl.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-20 03:24
yaseungkim wrote:
> 2. After about third recital, my son says he wanted to do
> recital like those professionals, no sheet music in front of
> them.
Most clarinet professionals DO have the music in front of them playing a concerto or at recitals. It is not the same as violinists or pianists who are not expected to have the music in front of them.
Whether or not the music is necessary for the clarinetist in question is not the point - it is at least a tradition among most woodwind instruments.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-20 03:37
Mark Charette wrote:
> yaseungkim wrote:
>
> > 2. After about third recital, my son says he wanted to do
> > recital like those professionals, no sheet music in front of
> > them.
>
> Most clarinet professionals DO have the music in front of them
> playing a concerto or at recitals. It is not the same as
> violinists or pianists who are not expected to have the music
> in front of them.
>
> Whether or not the music is necessary for the clarinetist in
> question is not the point - it is at least a tradition among
> most woodwind instruments.
Mark, could you please elaborate on the difference between violinists and clarinetists. What would make clarinetists special as soloists? I do not think I have seen solo clarinetists with the orchestra playing by the score. I've only witnessed one flutist playing with the score in one of the university auditions - and the visual impression - it definitely takes from the performance when the soloist is engaged with the score rather than the audience.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-20 04:17
ClaV wrote:
> Mark, could you please elaborate on the difference between
> violinists and clarinetists. What would make clarinetists
> special as soloists?
It's a tradition, so there isn't much to elaborate on. David Pino, a fine clinician and respected player and writer, mentions this in his book The Art of Clarinet Playing
I'm sure someone has a counter argument to this somewhere, but it is the opinion of a very talented man.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-20 04:54
Mark Charette wrote:
> ClaV wrote:
>
> > Mark, could you please elaborate on the difference between
> > violinists and clarinetists. What would make clarinetists
> > special as soloists?
>
> It's a tradition, so there isn't much to elaborate on. David
> Pino, a fine clinician and respected player and writer,
> mentions this in his book
>...
>
> I'm sure someone has a counter argument to this somewhere, but
> it is the opinion of a very talented man.
Thank you, Mark,
The book refers to chamber music where playing by the score and being aware of other player scores makes a lot of sense.
It is a bit hard for me to imagine clarinet solo with the orchestra by the score (not that I've seen very many - about 5-6 - but I did greatly enjoyed all those performances with just the clarinetist and their black stick).
Your point about a tradition definitely makes a good sense.
P.S. I guess my main point, it would be a hard for me to believe that clarinetists are by any means less smart than violinists to play without the score, if needed.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 04:58)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-20 05:13
The biggest difference is that most of the concert violin and piano soloists you see at major orchestra concerts are full-time soloists. Same for a cellist like YoYo Ma. They often travel over a season with a set repertoire they offer the orchestras they play with and part of their preparation for including a piece in their touring repertoire is to memorize it. Some major repertoire (Tchaikovsky violin and piano concerti, Dvorak Cello concerto, etc.) is standard and constantly in demand and serious international soloists learn them early for competitions and never let them go out of memory. Playing these solo concerti is the largest part of their performing careers and memorization is by tradition part of the job. When they join chamber ensembles, they read music along with everyone else.
Pianists memorize also to avoid the overhead of having to rely on page turners in performance. Piano music can't be laid out always to have page turns during rests. Even at that, I saw a recent performance by Marc-André Hamelin playing a piano concerto by Turnage for which he used music and a page turner.
Clarinet soloists, with a number of well-known exceptions, often don't tour in the same way. They hold principal chairs and tend to play as soloists mostly with their own orchestras. If they aren't constantly soloing night after night, they're more likely to want the security of having the music in front of them even if they do in reality have it memorized. Anyone can have a memory lapse.
Morales plays the Mozart Concerto and Weber Concertino, two very familiar pieces, without music. I think he played the Debussy Rhapsody and Rossini Variations without music, but to tell the truth, it didn't matter enough to me to notice.
Karl
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-20 05:32
It would make a great sense then to applaud the effort of young clarinetists, as Mr. Kim's son, to play without the score so that clarinetist solo performances may become more common events - they are definitely very enjoyable!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-02-20 07:16
ClaV: "It would make a great sense then . . . "
"Then"?? Nothing Karl or anyone else has said betokens your conclusion. Whether the performer plays from the score or not has no bearing on how well the music is performed. There's nothing about watching someone play a memorized piece that's more appealing than watching someone play from a score - except in appreciating the show-off aspect of it. If you enjoy it that way, then it isn't because the music moves you, it's because you appreciate someone being able to memorize.
I say this as a memorizer. I tend to try to memorize things I intend to play. Memorizing takes time that has nothing to do with learning or perfecting the music. It's a separate thing. Maybe the ability to memorize involves some musical attributes of ear memory and muscle memory, but a piece being memorized says nothing about how well it is played. Memorizing is a stunt done for egotistical reasons. And that may be valid, (I hope it is,) but it isn't what anyone else said.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-20 07:35
Philip Caron wrote:
> ClaV: "It would make a great sense then . . . "
>
> "Then"?? Nothing Karl or anyone else has said betokens your
> conclusion.
Karl was referring to the limited number of clarinetists performing solo as a reason not to play without the score, as violinists do.
By this logic, if young clarinetists will be trained to play without the score and the expectations would be set as such, then we should see more of clarinet solo - which I believe will be the case, and will be a great thing.
We can respectfully disagree on performing without the score. It seems egotistical to you being a show-off. To me it seems more egoistical not to make an effort to learn the score in order to perform with the full attention to the audience. I really enjoy watching clarinetists performing rather then reading scores. If performing for the audience is not a main point, then listening to the recordings may be a good alternative.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 07:38)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 08:01
When my son auditioned for an ensemble when he was 11, he went up on the stage with no music score, the two jury looked at him all puzzled and said, where is your music... my son says, dad has them, he goes on to say, dad I told you they want to see the music. The jury says, no ,no, don't you need your music for the audition? My son says, no! After my son was finished, they went on to ask, does your teacher ask you to memorize you music for your lessons? And my son says, nope. And the jury asks, how is it that you memorized all your notes.
My son says, how can you not memorize your music when you have practiced it like a hundred times before you go to your lessons...
Han Kim does his solo without looking at the score, Sang Yoon Kim does his solo without music... Sarah Chang performs her solo without music, Beyonce, Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber does their repertoire without music in front of them.
Finally, You cannot audition for Juilliard, Curtis, PYO without having memorized your repertoire. All scholarship students at my son's current music school must perform recitals every other month, and you must perform your repertoire without music if you want to keep your scholarship, period ! (And my son is one of those scholarship students).
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-20 08:55
yaseungkim:
You are a teacher's paradox.
You think my advice is condescending (even when supported by a number of other posters) because you lack the knowledge to realize its accuracy, therby rejecting it, not learning, and as a result of not learning, (going back to the beginning here) thinking advice is condescending because you lack the knowledge to realize its accuracy.
I could write pages here with examples. It will serve no useful purpose for you. The accuracy of my claims that support the above will likely cause you to entrench your heels only further.
Your ignorance, even your sensitivity to merely being explained to (see Stan's post on barrels) I could look past. Heck, once upon the time we all knew nothing. But the problem is your rude, worse, your rude to the very people trying to help you. You lashed out at the moderator too. Tell me, do you run a website with information enormously interesting to Mr Charette? If so, do you let him use it for free? Well until such time that you do, consider treating him (let alone me) no worse that you've been treated, or is that too much to ask?
Now I'll take the liberty of answering your questions the way you've treated others.
"Don't you see some some of the comments are downright insulting ?"
No. You're insulted because you see truth you don't want to hear as denegration. You want to be told that what you think is right. At your own admission, you fired a teacher for not teaching your son a good enough embouchure when you don't even know what that is well enough to rate one.
"How do you know my 12 yo does not need a clarinet in Key of A ? "
The same way I know that George Washington's white horse is not blue. Or to phrase it another way, because you've given me the answer in the question:
he's 12.
An orchestra my 12 yo is auditioning for this June requires a clarinet in key of A, either you have it, or don't even bother audition is their position. One of the audition requirement is that you play an excerpt in key of a from Rimsky-Korsakov.
Shocker (sarcasm). They're likely having the clarinetists do C.E. (Capriccio Espagnol,) yes, for "A" clarinet to seperate the players from the wanna be's.
If the orchestra is asking for C.E., dollars to donuts, because your kid is 12, he's probably not ready for it. Conventional wisdom would have you buy the "A" clarinet after and if he makes it in to the group, and borrow/rent one for the audition. Or are you the parent who buys his kid a Mazarati for his [first] driver's test?
And so he's not yet in an orchestra, right? I stand by my why does he need an "A" clarinet and why isn't a Yamaha good enough if he does own one?
But do get that power barrel (sarcasm). It will help with the sightreading portion of the audition. Forget my suggestion on http://www.sightreadingfactory.com. Why would you go for something cheaper and more effective for a 12 year old. Ricardo Morales doesn't use it?
"You don't even know my son and start offering opinion based on your assumptions as to what he should do or should not do is just preposterous. "
I disagree. Combine the fact that he's 12, and I know what 99.9% of all 12 year olds can do on clarinet, with what so clearly from your own often irrelevant fact stories (how is it relevant he played piano at 5?--wait, don't answer that) is your utterly clueless gear-centric idiology, where you don't even know what you don't know. Funny how a bunch of others concurred my suggestions. Where they privy to information about your son that I was not or are we all crazy?
On Wednesday you got upset because, with kid gloves, I explained to you not only that clarinetists often carry an assortment of barrels, but why I didn't mention it (because everyone in the post prior to you knew that.) This weekend(??), according to your own writing, your barrel shopping for Mobas with your kid.
Yaseungkim, you don't even know what you don't know about clarinet, and your telling me I'm preposterous? You posted that you change mouthpieces to accomodate a reed strength?
Clearly sir, you need to make your own mistakes. You don't want opinions here, read only. Don't ask questions or interject thoughts and feelings.
"You don't know how he plays music, "
He strikes me as a very good 12 year old by your account. If he was brilliant, given your Conshohocken IP and presumed residence nearby, he'd be involved in enough music programs by now that our board's Dave Blumberg, 14 minutes away by car, and a well known teacher of advanced students would not only likely have heard of him and chimed in, but you'd know Dave, do you?
(Parenthetic note: I would love to be a fly on the wall if Dave, as your teacher told you that a solo best be played with music and your son disagreed. So your son also knows more than his 70 year old teacher?)
"you don't know what extra curriculum he participates in school or in the neighborhood, "
Hold your calls everyone. We have a winner. These things are terribly relevant how?
you have no idea who his music teacher is, what caliber musician she is, what music school he attend, the caliber of students there... you don't have any facts to start offering opinions that are not sought after.
And again, he's 12. I don't need to know these things. Tell you what, why not educate us (I'm not the first to recomend this.) It won't change my recommendations for his path of study, but I'll make it easy for you, since your the first to admit that your not musically inclined (fact, not insult). Do you think the jury's going to say, "well your performance was so so, but your teacher played it great, so...you're in!)
Oh, and by the way, sometimes the best players don't make the best teachers.
Here's a list of Florida's All State solos from a recent post.
http://flmusiced.org/fba/dnn/Portals/0/MusicLists/2013SoloEnsembleMasterList_updated01-2015.pdf
I'll bet your State's is similar. I know mine is. Which clarinet solos does your son have under his belt and at which of the seven levels?
You put your son's clarinet together? Why? No..don't answer. You line up the labels because...now this one I want to hear in your words. Don't get me wrong, I know the so called right answers to this question, I just want to here it from you. Give me your best musical reason for doing this.
You are crazy overinvolved for a parent accepting nothing short of his son being principal clarinet in the NY Philharmonic, let alone one who abhors the idea of his kid being a music major, as you've articulated.
Yaseungkim. I will tell you what my nightmare will be tonight. It will be you, in a couple of days, starting a post that reads, "which basset clarinet should I get a 12 year old," and you'll be dead serious.
When people ask you why he needs one, do get offended and point out that Ricardo Morales has one.
The irony here is that if you don't get that satire, and I suspect you don't, once you do, I'll bet that you'll really want an answer to that question on the basset.
Your lack of sound executive judgment (thrilled to provide more examples), your defense posture to legitimate answers: I truly wonder if you could benefit from taking this survey, no joke, and no insult intended:
http://time.com/3136687/narcissist-quiz/#3136687/narcissist-quiz/
Funny, was it too much to ask for you to respond, "you have a right to your opinion," when the people helping you did so first?
Get a book on manners. Read it. Come back here to post.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 09:06)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2015-02-20 10:02
yaseungkim wrote:
> Sarah Chang performs her solo without music, Beyonce, Taylor Swift,
> Justin Bieber does their repertoire without music in front of them.
Nope ... the last time I saw Justin Bieber perform the Nielsen Concerto, he used music.
...GBK
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Author: NB
Date: 2015-02-20 10:10
>the last time I saw Justin Bieber perform the Nielsen Concerto, he used music.
Good catch GBK!
The whole story looks like not the worst trolling I've ever seen in my life.
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2015-02-20 12:08
NB wrote:
> >the last time I saw Justin Bieber perform the Nielsen
> Concerto, he used music.
>
> Good catch GBK!
>
> The whole story looks like not the worst trolling I've ever
> seen in my life.
I thought so too, but he seems to be for real. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pntMG4eQ3rg
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-20 12:09
ClaV wrote:
> Karl was referring to the limited number of clarinetists
> performing solo as a reason not to play without the score, as
> violinists do.
> By this logic, if young clarinetists will be trained to play
> without the score and the expectations would be set as such,
> then we should see more of clarinet solo - which I believe will
> be the case, and will be a great thing.
>
No, I was referring to the limited number of clarinetists who make a career of solo performance. Far more have orchestra chairs with responsibilities other than those of full time itinerant soloists. If more young clarinetists "will be trained to play without the score and the expectations would be set as such," most of our gifted young clarinetists will still become orchestral principals for whom the skills of reading and learning to play music quickly trump the need to memorize every piece they perform.
Young students' memorizing their concerti will not generate more demand for solo clarinet performance and performers. Most clarinetists, even gifted ones, will not make their living as soloists. There are other market forces at work. More clarinetists with a memorized repertoire will not make much difference.
Karl
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2015-02-20 13:58
Whilst it would seem from what the OP says that his son is extremely talented and advanced for his age, which may be so, I think that it is very easy in any field (musical or not) to fall into the trap of thinking "I'd be great if only I had (insert name of premium product of your choice)". I felt somewhat the same about a recent thread from a younger poster who was keen to get an ATG system.
These things may help but there are no "magic wands" in becoming a good/great performer.
I am inclined to agree with those who would say that any of us players gain overwhelmingly the greatest improvement from hands on instrument time working steadily on the basics.
Vanessa.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-20 17:09
Karl, I am sorry if I may misinterpreted your ideas and was not justifiably optimistic that new generation of young clarinetists can make some difference.
Yes, market forces are a mighty factor, the factor which actually spells the demise of symphonic orchestra altogether, but that is a different story...
I really hoped that it could be different. As I mentioned, I was a bit shocked to realize that my son is the only high-school clarinet player in YO in the region with the population of 400,000+
He is now moving to a string instrument.
So I am biased to be highly sympathetic to OP efforts and hoped for more support of him by this board. I am sorry to mention that it was sad for me to see the response of people, like WhitePlainsDave.
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2015-02-20 17:12
"1. When I showed him a solo piece to perform at the church <I did not know the issue at the time> the teacher says the music is in the wrong key, either the pianist has to transpose or the clarinet has to, otherwise you are in the wrong key. I had no idea. He says my son needs to play a step up (or something like that). And when I asked my son to transpose on the fly, the teacher yells at me and says how can you ask an 11 yo to transpose, I was in high school when I first transposed... he says let me re-do the score. But my son played the whole thing through while mentally transposing and playing in correct notes."
Going back many years, but when I played in my middle school band (aged 9-13), any non concert pitch instrument had to transpose - the teacher that ran it didn't want to spend time writing out separate parts for clarinet, saxophone, french horn etc... His reward was a bunch of kids that were completely comfortable with reading concert pitch parts. It's a great skill to have, and I don't understand why it's not encouraged - particularly if a student shows an aptitude for it.
Yaseungkim...you've posted a lot recently about purchasing various different equipment..a clarinet with low F correction key, tuning rings, a moba barrel, different mouthpieces...your son sounds like a talented player. Constantly changing his equipment at this stage will most likely have a detrimental effect. I'm pretty sure his teacher (or any teacher) would have the same opinion. Good for you for having the resources to consider spending out on such things, and good for you for (understandably) looking into buying what you believe is the best equipment - but I'd recommend letting him get used to practicing on what he has, which are already very good instruments.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 17:54
Whiteplainsdave, I stopped reading your post once you started to attack me personally. That was obvious after first line.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 18:08
Sax Panther: but I'd recommend letting him get used to practicing on what he has, which are already very good instruments.
I hear what you are saying, but I have two questions for you...
1. How would you have dealt with circumstances where your clarinet is flat compared to the piano you are doing recital against, and this happens to be at an audition ? I was thinking a shorter barrel would be an answer, no ?
2. I hear my son squeak, only when the barrel is pulled, so, I was considering to get a longer barrel, do you recommend against this as well ?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-20 18:24
> 2. I hear my son squeak, only when the barrel is pulled, so, I was
> considering to get a longer barrel, do you recommend against this as well ?
Never heard a pulled barrel being the reason for squeaking, except the barrel sits wobbly on the tenon, or the cork isn't airtight etc. It is not uncommon to pull the barrel say a millimeter or so, just to have some elbow room for situation 1) (being flat against a piano).
When one is constantly flat, a shorter barrel can be one possible answer.
--
Ben
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-20 18:38
If he's constantly flat the barrel is a possibility, but the mouthpiece can also be a factor if the mouthpiece internal volume is too great. If you plan on getting a longer barrel he will be even flatter.
Squeaking when the barrel is pulled out can be caused by either a leak at the tenon or a badly acoustically mismatched barrel. The reed can also contribute, and reed seating might also be a factor. Seems to me that you're constantly introducing variables into the equation.
Tony F.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 19:23
All of the squeaking conditions were observed while he was playing with 5RV Lyre, and he always played with stock barrel that came with his r13 (we have nothing other than the stock barrel at this moment). Whenever he squeak during his practices, I would tell him to push in the barrel, and the squeaking would disappear. I will ask the tech to check the seal while the barrel is pulled when we visit him this weekend.
He now plays M13 Lyre for the last few days and he has not had it long enough for me to comment on it with changed MP.
Post Edited (2015-02-20 19:35)
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2015-02-20 19:34
yaseungkim - if your son sounded flat with that particular piano, but doesn't usually, then probably other auditionees would have suffered with the same problem - so the adjudicators wouldn't have marked your son down for that. From your other posts it sounds like he is sharp more often than flat (you mention about pulling the barrel out), so yes a longer barrel *may* help - but please take my advice, and that of the other posters - if he feels he wants to change something, go one variable at a time.
In my experience, I do find it useful having one short and one longer barrel. You could always try some out at a shop, or even better, find a shop that will send you some on trial for a week so that your son can use them at band/orchestra rehearsals, try them with a piano etc. If it solves the squeaking problem and gives him more tuning options (for matching with out of tune instruments, playing in extreme hot/cold weather etc) then great - if not, then you can send them back without spending the money on them. Watch out for any other intonation oddities a different barrel may cause - you mention your son has perfect pitch, so I'm sure he would pick up on these.
As Tony F says above, mouthpiece may also be a factor - but note his advice about if your son is *constantly* flat. You definitely don't want to be always changing mouthpieces just to try to adjust to every slight tuning issue.
Finally...I think you should read WhitePlainsDave's post. It's not a personal attack (how you can come to that conclusion without reading it is beyond me). It's good advice, which I would assume is what you're here for.
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 19:52
I routinely hear from my son he is sharp, and when I check on him with a tuner, he is correct every time...
It was his last recital that I heard him being told he is flat (this was the first and the only only time I ever heard of him being told that he is flat, but after speaking with my son, he told me he was in correct tune, but he was flat against the piano).
Now let me ask you this, as a judge sitting in a competition...
- Would you want to see a kid tune his instrument against the piano, or, this tuning issue does not matter.
- Violinist will tune the instrument against the piano, and you got your clarinet that's perfectly in tune but is flat compared to piano.
- 9 out of 10 kids competing are strings, and you are the only one with the wind instrument.
Who will you pick as the winner in the end, especially if you (judge) are a pianist or a string player who don't understand clarinet, with all things being equal. Just say the clarinettist played equally as well as the string player.
My son's music school director told me last week, she has never seen a woodwind instrument player winning the competition she was recommending my son participate in, it is always been a string player.
That gets me to wonder why... hmmm !!!
Post Edited (2015-02-20 20:01)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-20 20:09
yaseungkim wrote:
> It was his last recital that I heard him being told he is flat
> (this was the first and the only only time I ever heard of him
> being told that he is flat, but after speaking with my son, he
> told me he was in correct tune, but he was flat against the
> piano).
The piano can't be re-tuned. The player must adjust. Often a piano is tuned to A=442 instead of 440. And of course the piano is tuned in a temperament which means that the clarinetist must adjust his notes to the temperament, along with knowing where the notes fall when they are part of a chord and must be moved. And there's not only one temperament. String players do this all the time, one of the reasons open strings (besides their timbre) are problematical.
> - Would you want to see a kid tune his instrument against the
> piano, or, this tuning issue does not matter.
Tune against the piano. It matters. It's a competition.
> - Violinist will tune the instrument against the piano, and you
> got your clarinet that's perfectly in tune but is flat compared
> to piano.
> - 9 out of 10 kids competing are strings, and you are the only
> one with the wind instrument.
>
> Who will you pick as the winner in the end, especially if you
> (judge) are a pianist or a string player who don't understand
> clarinet, with all things being equal. Just say the
> clarinettist played equally as well as the string player.
The string player. Generally their concert pieces are flashier, showier, and most important, more well-known. There is a huge repertoire to pick from, some of which will emphasize the player's strengths and somewhat mask their weaknesses. We only have a couple of handfulls of pieces that are suitable at a high level.
> My son's music school director told me last week, she has never
> seen a woodwind instrument player winning the competition, it
> is always a string player.
It does happen, but rarely. And I swear it happens most frequently with flute, oboe, and horn players (horns are not technically woodwinds, but since they're part of a ww5tet, they're often lumped with woodwinds). Flutes and oboes have a far greater repertoire to pick from when it comes to concert pieces.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2015-02-20 20:11
ClaV wrote:
> I really hoped that it could be different. As I mentioned, I
> was a bit shocked to realize that my son is the only
> high-school clarinet player in YO in the region with the
> population of 400,000+
This is an entirely different issue from the rest of this thread. I'm shocked as well. This has nothing to do with memorizing or winning competitions or choosing equipment. In almost any school program there are always kids playing clarinet. They may not have the talent or the interest necessary to be international soloists or even to win positions in professional orchestras, but by high school they are competent and populate all the youth orchestra programs I know of in my local area - including the one I work with. I can't explain your region's dirth of clarinet students, but I don't believe it's a typical problem, at least here in the U.S..
> He is now moving to a string instrument.
Well, it may be that the clarinet world's loss is the string world's gain, but it would be a shame not to have any clarinetists in his youth orchestra.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2015-02-20 20:11
AH !!!!
Musicianship does NOT happen in a vacuum. Everyone needs to listen to everyone else. The most obvious examples are in combo jazz, where players don't just play their own riffs per se, but will work 'off of' what their peers just played before them.
This happes throughout music and particularly in tuning. You cannot be IN TUNE by yourself. You are only IN TUNE with respect to everyone around you.
In the case of the piano (piano tuners tend to get the settings a bit high to compensate for the sag in pitch that will happen in just a few days) you MUST follow your accompanist in pitch. If that means playing flatter or sharper than A=440 then that is what a musician does. It follows also with the interpretation of length of notes and how you play phrases. Obviously your accompanist must work out how to play mostly as YOU the soloist plays, however there should always be the ability and awareness to have give and take from the soloist throughout a performance.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-20 20:12
It might be that the string players were better... hmmm ! ! !
Tony F.
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Author: sax panther
Date: 2015-02-20 20:17
yes, I would expect the clarinettist/violinist to attempt to tune with the piano. It is easier to for the clarinettist to pull out at the joints, violin to adjust his pegs etc than for the piano to be retuned on the spot!
What I was trying to say was not that your son should make no attempt to match his tuning with the piano, but that the adjudicators would have noticed if every candidate was noticably flat and come to the conclusion that the piano was sharp. I'm sure if your son had gone through all the usual methods to try to bring his pitch up to the piano (check his barrel was in all the way, blow lots of air through if he had long rests etc) then I would expect the adjudicators to take that into account.
"Who will you pick as the winner in the end, especially if you (judge) are a pianist or a string player who don't understand clarinet, with all things being equal. Just say the clarinettist played equally as well as the string player."
If all things are equal, then it's a draw. A tie. Joint first place.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-20 20:26
"Whiteplainsdave, I stopped reading your post once you started to attack me personally. That was obvious after first line."
I would suspect that those who read your posts and mine, on this thread and others, would in large part conclude (and have so much as indicated as such), quite the contrary, that I have been patient with you beyond belief, and that I was "facting" you, in your son's best interest, not "attacking" you. The gems of clarinet play lie between the pages of 100 year old study books that have been carefully written and peer reviewed, not Toscas, or mouthpieces, or barrels, or tuning rings. Feel free to find that out the hard way.
How are you doing on that list of solos your son's done, so that we can get a better handle on the very skill set that you fail to be precise about? What study books has he done. You withhold information and them claim that posters don't know your son, and shouldn't be commenting. It's unfair of you to have it both ways.
I will not belabor this point as other posters won't benefit from it.
Make sure not to confuse my kindness with weakness going forward.
===
Now, I ask for everyone's attention on this.
* Not once has poster yaseungkim commented that his son plays sharp.
* Poster yaseungkim, from his own explanations on steps he's taken on clarinet with his son clearly does even know what he doesn't know. There is no shame in that, but your assumption that he does know "some" may cause you to give him answers he won't understand or appreciate.
* It is entirely plausable that poster yaseungkim doesn't even know (by his very own admission) what playing sharp or flat means, let alone what to do about it. And this is not for lack of him being pointed in the direction of videos which explain these very concepts. Of course not knowing this is not a crime.
* You are assuming, (and who could blame you, this is a clarinet bboard) that because he reports his son pulling out his barrel, that it must be because his son is sharp. Please don't assume that. In fact, the only thing poster yaseungkim has ever reported on intonation is that his son was either in key, or reported by others to appear to be a tad bit flat, and that may have been on low F, I don't remember. (classical flat anyway.)
* It is entirely plausible that poster yaseungkim did not know until last evening that tuning rings don't work in both directions (to address sharpness and flatness) all while inquiring as to the merits of Buffet's verses Yamaha's rings.
My point is that the normal assumptions you can fairly make when a poster asks a question must be disguarded for this poster. You need to ask questions like, "why did the barrel get pulled out," and assume nothing about the poster's knowledge on this subject matter, and that it must be because his son was playing flat. Quite arguably, his answer might have been, "because that's what my son saw Han Kim do, and that's a perfect role model for him," no joke.
This is not an insult, it's how one responds to a poster with limited knowledge that we assume has some knowledge.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2015-02-20 20:51
WhitePlainsDave, very wise indeed
AAAClarinet
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2015-02-20 21:20
I see this thread hasn't gotten any less confusing since the last time I called it that.
I don't even what to write other than that my bag of popcorn is empty and I need ANOTHER one!!
OK, for real here, can we get a video of your son playing his best solo? I mean, honestly, that would shut the vast majority of people here up pretty quick if we could hear what he sounds like. I mean, he's the best that the 70-year old teacher has ever seen, so undoubtedly he's a really good musician.
I'm serious, let's get a video.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-20 21:36
There's a link some pages up that thread. (edit: ah, Dibbs reposted it)
I don't repost it here for the simple reason that it isn't Junior whom we should judge, I mean he's just twelve and should not be measured by his own parents' praise - it's not his fault that some fuses in here are a bit shorter than what they used to be.
That being said - I watched that Han Kim video posted in a different thread, and if anything it just demonstrated that even the best equipment will not relieve you from constantly checking your pitch and your whereabouts in relation to those accompanying you.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2015-02-20 21:37)
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Author: yaseungkim
Date: 2015-02-20 22:02
sax panther: thx for your insight on how to prepare against your clarinet from being flat even while it is pushed in all the way. We will try to have his clarinet warmed up prior to his competition performance. I appreciate all those that provide technical feedback without being judgemental. I never had my son go through his preparation routine prior to his recitals. I will have him do that in the future.
Should my son win his competition, he says he will donate the entire winning to a charity... I am sure the tips I got from here would definitely help since he is competing with those whom are 13 and under, and no pianists allowed to compete.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2015-02-20 22:42
Good luck to your son.
AAAClarinet
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2015-02-20 23:20
Oh, sweet - thanks for that, Dibbs...
Kid's got talent in there but he's gotta work on a lot of stuff! Starting with tone, smoothness, musicality, not necessarily in that order. Nothing that can't start now and improve rapidly.
Obviously he's a good kid, but this isn't the right place to come flaunt his 12-years of accomplishments. I don't mean to be crass - or maybe I do - but you'll have a hard time competing with the caliber of players here - especially those who have chosen not to contribute to this particular thread.
You asked a topic about wood versus rubber and I can tell you without a doubt it won't matter at your son's level. That's okay. That's not a slight, it's just how it is.
SOOOO....rather than rehash the last five days of arguing, I'm going to pick apart your first e-mail one more time and answer your questions, as you requested. For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents:
"It appears a lot of people have positive opinion on hard rubber clarinet over a wooden one in this forum. Are there any known clarinettist from a major orchestra outfit who plays a rubber clarinet?"
Probably not, but not because they aren't just as good. I know a couple of professional clarinetists in the service bands who play on greenlines when they're playing outside. Does that count?
"Or, are their any solo performed by a big name artist with a hard rubber clarinet on youtube?"
Yes. Already answered in one of the myriad posts above. And if they played the same piece on wood, you or your son (or me) wouldn't likely be able to tell the difference - those players are that good.
"If not, has anyone from this forum posted a youtube video of themselves doing some of the following on a rubber clarinet. [List of works]"
Check Tom Ridenour's website. By the way, playing a piece in the standard repertoire and playing it really well are two different things. I can slam through the Francaix concerto but it isn't musical. Just a thought to think about.
"#note.. I ask this because inconsistencies in wooden clarinet is driving my 12 yo son crazy."
How does he know? How do you know? Inconsistencies within a single wood clarinet will not cause the problems described below such that your son would be able to really discern that it's the wood versus something else.
"His biggest complaint is that the clarinet plays and sound differently everyday. This is the curse he has to live with for having that perfect pitch ear. "
Pitch or sound? Which one? Again, his mouth movement and embouchure will have a bigger impact on pitch than anything else listed above.
"He can hear the slightest difference in tone and it frustrates him if it is not perfect."
What does "perfect" tone sound like? Perfect pitch won't help him with his tone. It'll help him with staying on pitch (not relative to his accompanist or anything around him), not with having good tone. Evenness across the instrument (in the sense of tone) - maybe, but his "perfect pitch ear" won't help him with that either.
"He will stop, redo, and gripe that the clarinet is not playing like it did yesterday. He even tells me the keys don't respond the same some times... and the repair tech says that's normal due to the weather..."
Yeah, weather, sure, maybe. I've lived in the Mid-Atlantic, midwest, north and south of the Mason Dixon line, and Europe and never had an issues with a Bb clarinet key sticking due to cold or hot or more or less humid. But it's possible, granted. This really wouldn't have much to do with the material of the clarinet.
"I am looking for repertoire on a rubber clarinet so I can play the video to my son and ask him if he would consider playing it himself."
But he doesn't have enough frame of reference to make that decision!!! I can give Julian Bliss a rubber clarinet and a wooden and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference (oops, I already said that, well I'm not backspacing so it stays!! :-) ).
With that, I'll leave the board with this tidy collection of 12-ish-year old clarinetists wowing the socks off me!!
Andrew Moses playing the Martinu Sonatina (this is ridiculous for his age, me thinks)
Julian Bliss playing Messager's Solo de Concours (well, he's a week 13)
and the afore-mentioned Han Kim playing Rabaud's Solo de Concours at age 11
Post Edited (2015-02-20 23:22)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-21 00:44
Poster Dibbs:
I may owe you an apology.
I assumed that the only person posting content on this board regarding poster yaseungkim's son was poster yaseungkim.
I had no idea I could actually see poster yaseungkim's son play.
This is him in your link, correct? I want to be fair.
Wow!
(About now poster yaseungkim thinks I am going to apologize.)
Did I overestimate the child's abilities based on poster yaseungkim's descriptions! I guess I was trying to give him and his son the benefit of the doubt.
Poster yaseungkim's, now mind you, I've seen 12 year olds play: this is, on its best day, for top 12 year olds, (and I am talking way below Kim or Bliss) one of the most unremarkable things I have seen--again, I said for top 12 year olds.
Now, you'll take that as in insult I know. It's not. Here's the skinny. He seems like a very nice boy trying hard, and maybe with a promising ability to develop before college, but on the continium of what I imagined based on your descriptions, his play is MUCH less than I expected.
Yes, he'll probably go on to be top clarinet in his H.S. Maybe play in 1 or more regional youth orchestras if he's lucky, but his work, let me describe it in objective terms.
In my NY State, there are 6 levels of difficulty. You're son is at 4. And that's fine. Most people don't do level six until their Junior and Senior years. With any luck your son will be ready at that level before then.
Really, some of the blame is mine. You see, when you said that your boy just played the Mozart Clarinet Concerto I didn't realize at the time that you don't know what that is.
I assume you meant all 3 movements, as that's what the concerto comprises, and that's what most people assume when you say he just played the Mozart.
The Mozart is a level 6 piece in my NY State, but it must include mvmts 1 or 3, and 2. Same goes for a lot of other States.
Let me be more specific. You may know the piece comes in 3 movements. Mvmt 2, which he plays, and does a nice job with, and while it has it difficulties, is a technical joke compared to the 1st and 3rd mvmts, particularly when the latter is done stataccato. That's when notes are slurred instead of..............oh what's the use, why do I bother!
I know a girl in my local Middle School, demonstratively better, and the people at Julliard Prep said, "you'll be ready in a couple more years sweetie." And she got a perfect score on a level 6 piece. She was though 13 ( I think) when she did it. But that could mean she's 1 - 23 months of age different than your son.
"Kid's got talent in there but he's gotta work on a lot of stuff! "
Not my words, somebody else's who I don't know.
"Obviously he's a good kid, but this isn't the right place to come flaunt his 12-years of accomplishments. I don't mean to be crass - or maybe I do - but you'll have a hard time competing with the caliber of players here"
Again not my words, somebody else's who I don't know.
But let me guess, we're conspiring against you right?
==============
It doesn't matter where I was at this age, but to you it does. And the irrelevant answer was, much more advanced.
...doesn't make me king, nor does in reflect poorly on your son regardless of what level he's at.
You want sweet talk versus honestly, ask his grandma. You've already been treated nicely: you showed hostility and lack of regard in response.
(Fairness in disclosure. I am the first to question if I've been negatively biased against this young man because of his dad. I don't think I'm being so, but I'm willing to acknowledge that the thought has crossed my mind.)
Post Edited (2015-02-21 00:49)
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Author: Gunthos
Date: 2015-02-21 01:05
Yaseungkim, don't let these bullies bully you into not posting!
I've read the thread several times. Clarinetest04 had the first true rude post in about post 34. You were very polite before that.
Whiteplains also, repeatedly, drew first blood, before you said anything negative to him.
"Poster yaseungkim: sit your son down with this video and make him watch it with intensity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhP1b6E6MxI
Repeat this action every now and then when he gripes."
He's telling you what you should do with your son, in YOUR free time, and HIS free time, and this is not an insult?
After things calmed down, Whiteplains has once again come on to troll, beating a dead horse, while over and over bringing bad blood to what, for the most part is a pleasant conversation.
The fact that Whiteplains said this "Make sure not to confuse my kindness with weakness going forward.
===
Now, I ask for everyone's attention on this."
and
then
AAACLarinet said he was 'wise', makes me thinks that he, like most people that may read this, are not going to read those massively long posts.
Mr Kim, again I root for the best with you and your son!
Post Edited (2015-02-21 01:06)
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2015-02-21 01:32
Isn't the point of music to be nourished by it and to revel in it's beauty by both listening and (and for those of us who do) playing it to the best of our abilities?
For me as a player and teacher it's not about winning competitions (be they verbal or purely musical), or being the best 12 year-old clarinetist ever - it's about developing a lifelong love of the arts and an appreciation for what they bring to our lives. All the rest is just a means to an end.
I worry that this 12 year-old, who clearly has potential, is going to be negatively affected by all the histrionics here (both justifiable and not), even if indirectly. Perhaps the best approach might be to pass over certain posts rather than to antagonize a poster who is clearly not going to hear what is being said in a way that most of us know would be helpful to the child at this time.
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-21 01:33
kdk wrote:
>This is an entirely different issue from the rest of this thread.
>I'm shocked as well. This has nothing to do with memorizing
>or winning competitions or choosing equipment.
>In almost any school program there are always kids playing clarinet.
>They may not have the talent or the interest necessary
>to be international soloists or even to win positions in professional
> orchestras, but by high school they are competent and populate
> all the youth orchestra programs I know of in my local area -
>including the one I work with. I can't explain your region's dirth
> of clarinet students, but I don't believe it's a typical problem,
> at least here in the U.S..
...
>Well, it may be that the clarinet world's loss is the string world's gain,
> but it would be a shame not to have any clarinetists in his youth orchestra.
Karl, I really appreciate your comments, In relation to OP's quest, it really resonated with me how harder an instrument the clarinet is to play, especially for kids - getting all the reeds, mouthpieces sorted out. My son has a great teacher, who was able to address all the critical equipment questions, but rightly concentrated on music not equipment. Within my limited experience (I by no means a clarinet player, but enjoy making few sounds and became really interested in clarinet acoustics - ever fascinating in its imperfection), I may not see a teacher easily, for instance, picking up OP's issue with M15 (my son's move in a direction of more open mouthpieces from M13lyre to M15 was a very instructive one...). I definitely got overly fascinating/involved with equipment...
and comparing string equipment vs. clarinet equipment - strings are incomparably simpler! (and the imperfection in high positions are far less obvious than with clarinet high notes).
For the dirth, we have a very good local Symphony with the corresponding number of string players vs. clarinet players, who teach. Also one of the local university has a very strong string program. Then there are regional string magnet programs in high schools, that is how my son get involved in strings to get in a high school of his choice. So there is perhaps unfair emphasis on strings with some high school students truly amazing.
The YO is a Full Symphony Orchestra with the local symphony, so it is demanding at least in time commitment and intended level of RCM8 or above). It would be challenging with only high-school playing experience. There are university students playing to at least minimally populate woodwinds.
Lastly for the scores, I recently was attending a final round of the concerto competition with a pianist, violinist and flutist. Flutist was the only one playing with the score and it really seemed so awkward to me (as a non-professional audience) him being confined and engaged in the score . The flutist actually won (judges were fair or even more than fair to woodwinds).
Vladimir
P.S. Few grammar errors corrected on the last edition
Post Edited (2015-02-21 05:41)
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Author: ClaV
Date: 2015-02-21 01:43
Gunthos wrote:
>Yaseungkim, don't let these bullies bully you into not posting!
...
> Mr Kim, again I root for the best with you and your son!
Gunthos, thank you for writing this!
I absolutely second your comments!
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2015-02-21 02:31
I'm sorry, I thought adding context to a discussion was totally legitimate. My asking the OP if he plays clarinet is rude?? Dude, let's put the thicker skin on.
Wow. This is why so many people who used to post here 10 or 15 years ago aren't here anymore.
We're not here at this forum to debate the quality of a man's son. Guy think's his son is the next Martin Frost? Go to town, brother! I hope he is! We need more good clarinet soloists out there making the rounds on the circuit playing the good literature, old and new, Mozart and Weber to Harlap and Gregson.
But what this board is NOT is a place where you should expect to come for answers and when you don't like that answer start calling people rude and conceited and unfair. The first time I went to a repair tech on my own I walked into the guy's shop (I was 13 or 14), told him I had a key sticking and what I thought might be the issue and I got lambasted up and down because "who the hell are you to tell me how to fix your clarinet?" And I've kept that harsh, but valid question with me in perpetuity.
If you have a problem and you know nothing about said problem other than throwing mud at the wall and hoping that it sticks, maybe your approach is bad. Maybe we need to take a step back and really analyze the problem before we start trying to fix it. (Or better yet, let his teacher fix whatever problem he's having).
I don't think this is all that complicated of a concept. It's what Dave has been saying the whole damn time - false analogies and stories about this solo performance or that audition or this memorized piece or what an amazing heart he has, while all wonderful attributes, just skirt the issue and contribute nothing to the conversation.
So let's be blunt here, let's try to solve problems and let's just try to get along, huh?
P.S. -- you can call me Robert.
P.P.S. -- It would be foolish to say that Dave or I or anyone else who has lost their nerve over this thread would wish any type of ill will on the OP or his son - quite the contrary. We wouldn't be here on this thread if we didn't want both father and son to be successful in their musical endeavors.
[OK, gotta go put another bag of popcorn in the microwave!]
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2015-02-21 03:47
"Whiteplains also, repeatedly, drew first blood, before you said anything negative to him."
Gunthos, check other posts before you comment. You're wrong. Do I need to point you to where, just let me know.
Let me give you a reader's digest review of some of what I've been privy to.
I'm on a post talking to people who I know, know that clarinetists can carry multiple barrels. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=419842&t=419842
Yaseungkim chims in asking "I wonder how many people actually carry multiple barrels in variable length to address the tuning issues."
Others would have mocked him, rolled their eyes, ignored him. This is common knowledge for most posters here. Instead, knowing he knows (at his own admission) next to nothing, from reading everything he's posted, I politely and respecfully answer his question about barrels. I choose to set the example that all with interest are welcome here. Please do read my humble reply.
Rather than say thanks, as he's a newbie whose learning, I get the pompous reply "That's why I asked the question in the first place... why didn't you say so earlier in this thread [about barrels]."
This reply shows that Yaseungkim is too ignorant to even know he's ignorant. It's as if he if offended that I made the assumption on a bboard about snow plows, that people know what snow is. It's my right to give him a talking to., about how he should behave when people politely answer his questions.
(This has literally been like trying to talk to Sheldon on Big Bang.)
But I don't. Instead I politely explain to him that my bringing up the idea to a bunch of posters who I know KNOW that clarinetists often have barrels, that .....(wait for it) clarinetists often have barrels could run the risk of seeming condescending to their intelligence. I was patient with this man beyond standards at this board. The moderator voluntarily concured.
It's as if Yaseungkim has decided to take the advanced physics class, when he's not ready for this class yet, knows it, and then he's mad at the students when they don't explain things that are prerequisites for the class, when in acutality, the students have every right to be made at him for his arrogance (not his newness).
Do not equate this with some "let's pick on the newbie" mentality. My track record here speaks volumes of being patient with questions for all types of people.
===
You are ignorant with respect to facts. Read the post above. That's where you'll find you so called first blood.
Then, come back here and admit you got it wrong.
You take issue with my telling Yaseungkim what to do. I, unlike you, have read every post this individual has posted. By clarinet standards, and others in the know concur, he is a train wreck. He changed his son's mouthpiece 3 times in what 2 months, and why: to match a reed (no normally player does this...at best, some advanced players have shopped for mouthpieces to match Legere's.)
I don't know your knowledge sir, but the fact is, we work in reverse: we match a reed to a mouthpiece. Better still, Yaseungkim does this with no teacher input.
Next, in an effort to address his son's flatness, he looks into tuning rings. If you don't see the illogic in that, I can't help. I truly belive at the time Yaseungkim did this, he thought tuning runs raise and lower pitch. There's no crime in that; just his attitude.
There are many more examples of this. Poster Yaseungkim, not even knowing on Wednesday the clarinetists carry barrels, proceeds to announce he's shopping for barrels with his son this weekend, Mobas in fact. Why? Because as we discover today, his son pulls out a millimeter.
Bottom line, I told the man what he needs to hear in the best interest of his son: which was 1) conduct himself here on the bboard with responsiblity, 2) don't lash out at posters, (which included the moderator) that are trying to help you with sound advise, 3) conduct himself with some humility as it's he who seeks knowledge, and 4) have his kid hit the etude books, not the stores for gear. My advice, which he can choose not to follow if he's stupid, is not something I can make him do. That advise has been peer supported here.
If his son is putting down the clarinet, an instrument which inherently does not play in perfect tune, because.....it's not in tune, both he and his son need a reality check on the instrument. I provided that from someone other than me, Julian Bliss. HE, more than I gave them the tough love talk, that is if they were smart enough to watch it.
As for ""Make sure not to confuse my kindness with weakness going forward," that's my way of saying I deal with everyone on this bboard kindly at first. (check my posts). You can even be rude with me a little bit; I know clarinet is frustrating. But don't think it a license to be continually rude in return.
Gunthos, this is not a fight between newbies and seniors. This is a senior trying to help a newbie who takes knee jerk action, for reasons he doesn't know why, and tell him what he needs to know..all why getting kicked in the teeth for doing it.
I too root for the best with Yaseungkim son.
As for "Now, I ask for everyone's attention on this." You don't understand, nor does other posters, that Yaseungkim doesn't even know what he needs or wants. That was said so other posters make no assumptions with him, like, his son pulling out his barrel means he was playing sharp, or that he realizes what tuning rings are for. This was actually in Yaseungkim best interest.
Now Gunthos, please go read what I asked you to, put your tail between your legs when you realize that the unfairly treated one here was me, and come back and apologize: not because you are a newbie, but because you now realize that my story bears out the truth that it is and that you made your case from a point of ignorance. Check the post on tuning rings too.
The record shows me being anything but a bully here. I conducted myself initial with Yaseungkim, as I do everyone intially, like this was my first day being here on a paid job.
Post Edited (2015-02-21 03:55)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2015-02-21 04:07
Ok, the level has gotten so childish now that it has to come to a close.
Since I have the last word on this thread:
To our OP, yaseungkim,
Please keep asking questions - but please just accept the answers in the spirit given. You might not agree with them, but in general they have been open & honest while your reaction to them has been a bit less open than one would expect.
I - and I believe everyone here - hopes your son will enjoy making music as he progresses in his artistry. He has just started down that road and has a good start, and he has a long way to go. He will come to the realization, probably very soon given his drive, that "mastering" a piece is a lifelong effort.
I started down my road by asking questions to help out my son in clarinetistry, just as you are doing. I know the difficulties in being a parent trying to help their child in something they know little about. I ended up learning to play the clarinet using my son's "discards", and I still play using his "discarded" Selmer 10G. I learned a lot about clarinets - and myself - trying to play that *&%^& black stick.
mark C.
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The Clarinet Pages
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