 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-04 11:50
Hi guys,
I have been very frustrated with my higher clarion register, and altissimo register especially lately. When I'm doing exercises such as tonguing major and minor scales, and scales in major and minor thirds, I have noticed when I tongue the upper clarion register or the altissimo, I have this '12th-lower-note' sound when I tongue, but a milisecond later the note comes sailing out. It's only the moment I tongue the note kind of goes a 12th lower. An example is when I play the clarion B, an F# comes the moment I tongue. Some of my fellow clarinet peers have suggested putting more airspeed, but it doesn't work as well. Help here! Also, my lower clarion F# is flat for no reason, while all the other notes are in tune. My setup is : Bb selmer signature, Vandoren CL5 Masters Mouthpiece, GF-System ligature, 3.75 Legere Signature reeds.
PS: I find the tone quality superb with legere reeds when with the masters mouthpiece! It's my own opinion though~
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-03-04 13:25
I recall Arthur Benade discusses this efect in his book Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics, 2nd edition.
richard smith
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-04 13:42
Damn of the problems I have, I have that one too.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2012-03-04 13:47
I think that that momentary sound is sometimes referred to as "the grunts". Someone must have an answer, because I get it only on tonguing the clarion.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2012-03-04 13:53
My first thought is tongue position... If you think about your tongue connecting with your molars, and "hissing" (with and without the clarinet), that should give you the correct tongue position and voicing. The other could be moving your lower lip ever-so-slightly lower on the reed, so you have just a tiny bit more reed in.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-03-04 15:06
I've been working on that for a long time. I think (personally) that my problem comes from airflow. Not a steady enough airstream while tonguing, and not strong throughout. I've gotten a lot better though by focusing on keeping a strong and steady airstream and doing tonguing exercises.
I would try playing one of those problem-some notes with a strong airstream and REALLY LIGHTLY tongue it. You should hear the tic of the tongue hitting the reed, but no undertone. If that's the case, then you might be like me, where when you tongue it, you are (without trying or realizing it) messing up the airstream (slowing it down, throat moving interrupts it, something like that))
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-03-04 15:29
I've experienced the grunt too, and I found that it was peculiar to a particular combination of reed and mouthpiece. When I went to a slightly softer reed the situation improved, but when I went to a different mouthpiece the problem vanished. I could get it back by reverting to the original mouthpiece. I've also found that some instruments are more susceptible to grunting than others, and that the height of the register key pad had some influence.
Tony F.
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2012-03-04 16:21
Try to imagine yourself aiming your air right between your eyes (directed with your tongue).
Also, sometimes if the register key is opening too high, the grunt is more present. Experiment around with that by adding paper under the thumb section of the register key, if the key itself isn't screw-adjustable.
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-04 22:15
Thanks for all your suggestions! I'll try more air and lighter tonguing first, theme xperiment with the position of the tongue. Of the problem persists, I shall take it to the repair shop for checking register key etc. I've long suspected the register key tube to be somewhat blocked or sth. Not sure though. And I'm a student, so I can't afford a barrel and mouthpiece yet (got to save up hahaha). Thanks guys!
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-05 08:37
Also, any suggestions for the clarion F#? I tried alternate fingerings and it's still flat.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-03-05 14:24
Do you mean the altissimo F#6? ![[F#6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/gb6.gif)
If so, you can raise the very flat standard fingering TR | -x- | --- Eb by opening the sliver key for the right middle finger or even the left little finger C#/G# key.
An alternative, which is pretty well in tune but with a different tone color, is the long F plus the right little finger on the Eb key TR | xxx G# | xxx Eb.
Tom Ridenour's book undoubtedly has many more possibilities <http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm, item #C015.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-03-05 15:59
It might be worth checking the operating gap between the register and the register key pad when the key is opened. It should be small --on the order of the thickness of a dime.
Sorry, let me go find a dime and measure its thickness: I'll be right back...
.............................................
Uh, that's about 1.25-millimeters (0.050 inches)
Bob Phillips
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-06 04:59
My register key when opened is almost 2mm. And it's the clarion F# that's flat, the one like TR | XXX |-X-
I read the topic on grunting, and tried raising my tongue, putting more embochure etc. but the grunt is still there. When I put paper on the register pad to make the gap smaller, it's still there.
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-06 12:18
And just now I tried my mouthpiece-reed-ligature setup on a buffet RC, and the grunts are gone. So is it confirmed a mechanical problem? With either the register key opening too big or the tube is dirty etc?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2012-03-06 15:22
I'd try more paper under the touch piece of the register key --until the clarion register won't speak --just for testing.
How far does the register key of your trial RC open?
Bob Phillips
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-06 17:06
I get a grunty sounds when pads aren't closed. Do you get any bubbling spitty keys after long periods of playing (F# banana?)? And what notes in the upper register grunt all of them? Or just some below a certain notes (if this is the cases it is in all likelihood a micro leak). And, for the register key have you removed it and cleaned the gunk out of the tone hole?
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-06 21:06
I didn't. Measure the gap of the register key, bu j can see that the RC's opening is way smaller than my signature. Also, I haven't cleaned the tone hole. Got no alcohol or anything to clean it properly. I'm sending it to the repair shop today, and address all my problems, especially tuning and the grunts.
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Author: mvjohnso
Date: 2012-03-06 22:08
Fyi, you can always use Q-tips (or pipe cleaners) for the larger tone holes and toothpicks (covered with a napkin) for the octave and some of the smaller tone holes, no alcohol or anything further is really required. However, what your tech will do ought to be more thorough.
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-06 23:49
I properly measured the register key opening, and it is almost 0.3cm! (3mm) (0.118 inch) do I ask the tech to bring it down abit and try our again?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2012-03-07 00:44
To bring it down yourself, take some electrical tape or really any thin thickness and stick it to the cork where the register key hits the wood.
Just put anything there to add the appropriate thickness, AS A TEST. It won't be a permanent solution, but it'll help to see if getting a tech to put a PROPER piece of cork there WILL be the solution, or part of it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-03-07 02:29
SamuelChan wrote;
"And just now I tried my mouthpiece-reed-ligature setup on a buffet RC, and the grunts are gone. So is it confirmed a mechanical problem? "
This is not necessarily a valid assumption. The problem may be related to the particular combination of reed/mouthpiece/clarinet. By moving the m/p-reed to another clarinet you've altered the dynamics. Try a different reed-m/p on your clarinet and see what happens.
Tony F.
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Author: SamuelChan
Date: 2012-03-08 09:27
Ok, I tried a Gonzalez 3.5 FOF reed on the same setup after many mouthpieces and ligature tryouts. The grunt is completely gone! Seems like the legere signature is making the grunt. I wonder why, mismatched mouthpiece?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2012-03-09 02:40
Could very well be a mismatch. I use Legere reeds and have found them to be super-critical with regard to the centralising of the reed on the table. Even slightly off-centre and they grunt/squeak. That being said, some m/p's just don't seem to work well with Legeres. Try the Legere in different positions on the table, it may help.
Tony F.
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[F4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/f4.gif)
, reset your voicing and go to the corresponding clarion C ![[C6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c6.gif)
without using the register key. It helps to move your lower lip toward the shoulder of the reed. Then play a slow descending chromatic scale. The voicing and lip position become more critical as you go lower, and you probably won't get beyond F5 ![[F5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/f5.gif)
, but it's possible (as Neidich demonstrated) to reach the B4 ![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif)
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