 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-12-20 13:01
Jason posted this video in conjunction with phrasing . There was also a tie in here to Tony Pay's article "Phrasing in Contention". http://www.pickstaiger.org/video/menahem-pressler-chamber-music-master-class
I am having some problems understanding Mr Pressler's suggestions. To complicate matters he is too soft spoken on my computer. Is it as Tony Pay suggests that "phrases start"? It may seem evident to many what Mr Pressler is getting at but I am having some trouble understanding. Most of the phrasing issues seem with the pianist while the string players seem to be exempt from inappropriate phrasing. The body language of the cellist and violinist sure seem to imply a romantic style to me.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-12-20 14:55
John wrote, in part:
>> It may seem evident to many what Mr Pressler is getting at but I am having some trouble understanding...is it as Tony Pay suggests that "phrases start"?>>
I would say that phrases-beginnings are bound up with what he says, though he never makes that explicit.
What he does first is to reduce the 'drive' factor in what they do, starting with the pianist. He has them try to have the music 'sit down', rather than hurrying or crescendoing toward the next bar, Tabuteau/McGill style. (That's what I think of as 'utility expressiveness', because at its worst it gets applied across the board, irrespective of the stylistic requirements of the piece.)
In the thread at:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=351988&t=351928
where the link to this video first appeared, I wrote:
"...his overall message, in all three pieces, has the effect of stopping the players being 'players', and having them, instead, be 'contributors' to the musical argument and magic."
To do that, he reduces their utility expressiveness, and their tendency to make crescendos towards barlines, so that phrases CAN begin and come away. Then he focusses attention on beginnings; but indirectly, dealing with their performance by requiring greater diversity of character between different phrases, and appropriate responses from one player to another.
The crucial point is: if you have to change character between one phrase and another -- as opposed to simply, 'being expressive' -- it very quickly becomes apparent that how the phrases BEGIN is an important and powerful tool.
See what happens when he asks the violinist for her "Sunday sound". After several attempts with an upbow, she switches to a downbow, realising that she needs a warmer beginning if she is to be able to use the sound itself as a mode of expression. And that begins to have a knock-on effect, as the musicians relax and answer each other, allowing Mozart to speak through them, instead of hyping him up with unwritten crescendos in their own parts.
Of course there is much more than this -- including the wonderful poised stillness that he manages to to get in the slow movement. (The players themselves begin to SIT STILL -- like him!)
Tony
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-20 22:06
John,
I wrote a bit more in the "Legends...Etudes" thread, but as I would state it:
The idea of "a phrase beginning" is not one of truly placing emphasis on each bar-line/phrase beginning. Rather, it is a change in mind-set that is quite antithetical to the Tabuteau way; that of seeking for constant forward motion and looking for "somewhere to go."
In performance or coaching, hearing "this. phrase. or. bar. is. beginning. now." explicitly is not the aim of all of this; it is again a change in mid-set. The function is to set-up an environment which allows the musicians to communicate/collaborate amongst themselves and still express their own musical line. When fully realized from the performer side, the audience is then invited to be a part of the conversation. I re-posted the video as it serves as an illustration of the mind-set for me, and an implicit statement of an abstract concept.
Quite obviously a phrase must begin; we control that beginning (often from what precedes) and importantly where it goes.... or doesn't go.
Pressler gently admonishes "Close the phrase" when appropriate. ...And coming from the other side, as Tony mentioned, the discovery of a "Sunday Sound" afforded the violinist the ability to begin her line conversationally from what preceded. (To me, a clear illustration of the false dichotomy between "fundamentals" and "musicality.")
Also, I would not say that the string players were exempt from Pressler's coaching. But, listen to the change evoked in their playing when the pianists' left-hand figure was changed. The reason I assume that he addressed it first is that it often served as the under-pinning of the musical dialogue in the other voices/right hand. Then, when the right-hand, and violinists' playing destroyed the environment, he clearly did "correct" their "inappropriate phrasing."
and what a rich bow the cellist found she had!
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-12-20 22:16)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-01-01 23:16
Now look at the Karl Leister masterclass video and compare this to Mr Pressler's approach to Mozart. To my ears the student sounds very appealing...lots of sensitivity and nuance ....but he doesn't change his approach one iota after Mr Leister talks and then plays. Perhaps Karl didn't make things clear with his talking but his phrasing is strikingly different from the student's approach. The student doesn't hear it.
Mr Leister is very generous with his praise and encouragement but I take it that he feels that the student was within the boundaries of suitable phrasing. I don't see how he could be that flexible. Here is the link for the Vandoren series of videos http://www.vandorentv.com/Karl-Leister-EN_v78.html I had to download it to watch it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Buster
Date: 2012-01-02 05:47
Without seeing the entire video of the Masterclass I would say we have little idea of exactly Herr Leister was after, nor should we make assumptions over what he considers "acceptable."
The short clip that Vandoren gives us of the Masterclass itself is even edited (for brevity's sake I assume); and we are not privy to what preceded nor followed. Additionally, we are not aware of the setting/manner in which the masterclass itself was presented: that can greatly affect what may be said.
In lieu of all these factors, I would hesitate to draw any conclusions from a short, removed, extract as we have here.
(If one wishes to decide how the students plays is appealing, in sensitivity and nuance, then of course they are free. But, "why it may be appealing" is what needs be parsed out for oneself. Personally, I am not comfortable stating my thoughts on either front in this setting.)
-Jason
Post Edited (2012-01-02 05:57)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2012-01-02 15:14
Jason, I offered this point of view as food for thought. I think there is sufficient evidence for what I am stating. The student in this video is employing 10000 times the nuance that Mr Leister is. Neither of them seem concerned about the disparity. Maybe they shouldn't be concerned?
My intention here is totally impersonal. I don't know the student and I'm forgetting who Karl Leister is. My observations are about the subject matter.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2012-01-02 15:19)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-01-02 16:36
Phrases start, and how they start affects timbre (what you hear), at least to some degree, for a brief moment. Difficult to describe, but you can hear the difference.
richard smith
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Author: srattle
Date: 2012-01-02 16:54
Arnold,
going just from the video, Mr. Leister is asking the clarinetist to create an emotion, and sound and a character, not really talking about specific phrasing.
I don't know whether the student hears it or not, but a good musician should be able to take criticism/advice and apply it to his or her own musical intentions.
I applaud Karl Leister here for offering a point of view, and not dictating HOW to do it, this is how great young MUSICIANS can be built, rather than just great young players being 'musical'
I wont give a statement further about whether the student managed what Leister was asking, but I think it's important to note the difference between copying someone's phrasing, and emulating the character that they want from a piece.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-01-02 18:22
rtmyth wrote:
>> Phrases start, and how they start affects timbre (what you hear), at least to some degree, for a brief moment. Difficult to describe, but you can hear the difference.>>
http://eastop.net/?p=848
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-01-02 18:32
Sacha wrote, in part:
>> I applaud Karl Leister here for offering a point of view, and not dictating HOW to do it, this is how great young MUSICIANS can be built, rather than just great young players being 'musical'.>>
I too applaud KL for this.
I wouldn't want to dismiss attention to detail, though. That is how great young musicians can be given a greater variety of tools. And those tools are what they need in order to expand the 'stock in trade' of their musical vocabulary.
For example, I would say that Marcellus's recording of K622 would have been more powerful had he been able to include:
(1) the idea that the piece is operatic, and
(2) a greater variety of 'beginnings' -- plus the notion that 'going to' is not the only mode of expression.
It's still pretty good, though:-)
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-01-02 20:12
Tony -
I've taken your advice seriously and have been and working on beginning-oriented phrasing. As you say, it's very important in Mozart.
I know that you have recorded the Mozart Concerto with the ECO (presumably on a modern clarinet) and the AAM (on a reproduction period clarinet). Which of these better illustrates the operatic character and beginning-oriented phrasing?
In your opinion, are there other recordings that do the same?
Many thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-01-02 20:18
Thanks, Tony. Maybe related to: the shorter the pulse the longer the bandwith.
richard smith
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2012-01-02 23:49
Ken Shaw wrote, in part:
>> I know that you have recorded the Mozart Concerto with the ECO (presumably on a modern clarinet) and the AAM (on a reproduction period clarinet). Which of these better illustrates the operatic character and beginning-oriented phrasing? >>
Neither of them, sadly. (Actually, I only conducted the ECO recording, which was played by my ex-student Juan Lluna.)
My own recording was made in 1984, 27 years ago. And although I was at the time in the process of trying to re-evaluate K622, I didn't succeed in explaining the style properly to myself until a few years later. I now play the piece very differently, having escaped my previous notions of it.
So, I don't really recognise myself in that performance; indeed, I find it very difficult to listen to it nowadays. (But, given that it's still in the catalogue after all this time, I suppose there must be SOMETHING worthwhile in it.)
As I write in 'Phrasing in Contention', it's very difficult for very many people to consider crossing the divide between one view of the music (say, McGill's take on the Tabuteau system) and the (actually much older) alternative.
So, congratulations on being willing to have a go:-)
I'd even say you're better off without a direct model, because the whole idea is that it gives you an expressive SPACE. As I write in PIC:
"The first question for the practising performer is, what does 'more or less' mean? The encouraging answer is that, in answering the question for oneself, one suddenly has access to a wide range of expressive devices."
Thank you for your post.
Tony
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