 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: HBO
Date: 2011-06-10 01:32
Aren't they still in the process of making them? I thought the first models are coming out at the end of June.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-06-10 02:49
What, Tom can't sell hard rubber clarinets even though he claims they're superior in every way? (I mostly agree with him on that subject, for what it's worth). Once again perception trumps reality. Gotta sell what people think they want, even if something else is better in fact.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-10 14:31
Are these being made in China where quality is above everything in all products made by kids under ten? ;-) ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: William
Date: 2011-06-10 15:43
TR, although a master accoustician who knows as much about the clarinet as anyone on Earth, is nonetheless a savy businessman who will do anything to sell his product. Wouldnt you???
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Author: dibble
Date: 2011-06-10 22:56
Low notes on the rubber Bb lack sonority as Leslie Craven wrote in his FULL article. I hope the wooden one is the exact same design so people can really put the material thing to the test.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-10 23:34
dibble wrote:
> I hope the wooden one is the exact same
> design so people can really put the material thing to the test.
They will almost certainly be the same design but it still won't put the material debate to rest. Professional-level clarinets that are available in both wood and hard rubber have been around for decades (ex. B&H Imperial 926) and yet the debate still rages.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-10 23:41
I wonder if it'll show the difference between how wood and hard rubber handle temperature and moisture changes (I would guess hard rubber wouldn't absorb moisture and swell like wood probably will, and therefore it would change less). And if anything, as Tom has a very good hand as a tech and designer, I'm wondering if this will also boost sales of his rubber clarinets as people may buy them as a "backup" to their ridenour wooden one, or discover that if his wooden one is good, a rubber one by HIM would be a good backup to something else...etc.etc.
Although I do see the wooden one helping to extend his reach simply because he can now advertise HAVING a wooden clarinet. A little silly, but there is that stigma that people make when associating a certain material or place of origin with an object.
Alexi - Who rides an AMERICAN motorcycle! (yet all the tools he needs for it are metric....hmmm.....)
US Army Japan Band
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Author: dibble
Date: 2011-06-11 23:41
Adding a wooden bell and barrel (like Leslie Craven suggests) also helps the lyrique horn to sound better in the lower register. I think wooden clarinets can play much louder in this register. Every time i listen to recordings of myself, this tends to be true.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-06-12 00:25
I'd just like to say that I think Tom Ridenour is a very generous/charitable guy, who I don't think would allow his products to be produced abroad if not only basic human rights standards for workers on his products were not met, but if quality suffered.
You can find his charitable links on his homepage; his clarinets you have to click to see.
For all he sells, he also shares countless tips on youtube and his website for free, and knows enormous amounts about the instrument.
In my years of playing, I've found many clarinetists not open to quickly adopt paradigm shifts. Accordingly, I would not be surprised to find his production of a wooden clarinet something that simply makes business sense, b/c many players aren't willing to shift to rubber.
Sometimes, they have, or feel that have valid reasons---and I respect that.
I don't think Tom is an enemy of wood so much as a proponent for rubber. If I were playing outdoors or in humid summers, (and has some extra $) I'd love to have one of his rubber horns--I hear them excellent, and I KNOW rubber to be far more plentiful than rosewood or grenadilla.
Perhaps Tom is no less guilty than any wood clarinet manufacturer who makes their horns in grenadilla rather than rosewood, not for the superior beauty of grenadilla's sound, but the difficulty in machining rosewood (read cost.)
If combustion engine auto manufacturers can also sell hybrids and electrics, Tom can sell wood.
Sadly the economy is not a perfect place. Consumers sometimes buy the more expensive products thinking they must be better. This is often, but by no means always the case.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-06-12 12:12
Wood looks good and feels nice to the touch.
I have both Ebonite (hard rubber) and Ebony clarinets and both sound identical and have the same projection with the same mouthpiece and reed.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-12 16:24
I think it makes good business sense for him to come out with a wooden clarinet. Certainly he has great arguments for having a rubber clarinet. Stability, durability, easier to machine, and like he says, bad dimensions don't cost any less than good dimensions. So why not use an easier to machine material, that will hold up just as long if not longer, and focus more on the acoustical part of it than having to worry about a clarinet cracking, or absorbing moisture and swelling, etc. etc.
If you look on facebook (and possibly also youtube), Morrie Backun has a few videos featuring Ricardo Morales and others. In one of these videos, Ricardo Morales comes to him explaining that his clarinet (wooden, about two years old) is not feeling right and Morrie shows how he can bring life back to it. Morrie starts with taking a reamer and putting it in there and shows how the wood has swelled and the reamer doesn't even fit in as far as it should, so he re-does it. Then he measures the tone holes and shows that they are no longer circular and also have to be redone with another of his reamers. So he redoes that.
What gets me is how this video is a great example of how a wooden clarinet's dimensions change so much over a small time period (two years), and how "out of spec" it is now. It's wonderful that there are techs out there that can fix it, but isn't it just better to start with a material that won't go out of spec so quickly? I'm a big supporter of alternative materials and think Buffet did the right thing coming out with the Greenline series. Tom's doing the right thing focusing on hard rubber. And legere is going along the right way. I right now prefer a great sound, but from any sort of materials that will give me the most CONSISTENCY. The less I have to change embouchure, tuning, etc., the more I can focus on technique and musical phrasing.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-12 21:22
I don't see why people still have the material argument. I think a wood clarinet is nice to have, and I do play one, but automatically assuming that your wood clarinet is better than that guy's plastic/hard rubber one or that you're a better player because you play wood is the same level of maturity of a snobby female high school clarinetist. (Know that I am not talking about anyone on this board, just comments I've heard from some uninformed clarinetists.)
I was given two E11 clarinets to play test, both in working condition. Neither one played as well as my plastic Yamaha. The guy tried to sell one to me saying "Wooden Buffet is more the line of professionalism you need."
I've said it before and I'll say it again. What I think alters your sound is mouthpiece, reed, barrel, and you the player.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-06-12 22:33
DavidBlumberg quote :- Barry, come on - they aren't the same make and model (you don't have Tom's wood yet do you?) - what are you comparing??
Well David I can only state what I hear myself and I thought the debate was about the difference between wood and ebonite clarinets, not make or models but for what's it worth, my instruments are the Ebonite Lyrique 576bc and the wooden B&H Imperial.
I also have two wooden Amati clarinets , a Bb ACL 605 and the A ACL 675
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Author: dibble
Date: 2011-06-12 22:38
Even different types of wood sound different from each other, so aside from the better or worse argument, there IS a difference between materials' sound. If I remember correctly, I read that Tom Ridenour wrote that his rubber clarinet sounded close to rosewood. I personally prefer grenadilla over cocobolo though both sound nice. Everyone has their preference. Also, most pro players play wood and I would not dismiss them as being ignorant, nor close-minded to the so called greatness of hard rubber. Especially since they too, strive for the best possible sound. Hard rubber has been around for quite a while now.
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-13 01:17
Well, from what I know, it has been scientifically proven material doesn't matter. The reason people get the idea that wood sounds better is because the makers put more effort into the bore and the tone holes, thus giving it a more "professional" sound. They do this because it is their pro model, and they want to go all out on it, meaning that they spend more money to make it with wood. Thus YOU pay more. It has been found that certain plastic and hard rubber clarinets (In this case, Tom's.) have been made with the same bore and tone hole features as some wood ones, so you can't tell a difference.
There are some METAL Selmer clarinets (and a couple of others, Pedler, Silver King, etc.) that sound lightyears better than R13s, and some where you can't tell a difference.
A story from another thread on this board, I can't remember which, or who told it...
A player went to a repair shop and saw an oboist walk out with a plastic horn. The player says, wow, a plastic oboe, he must not be very good. The repairman looked at him funny and said, "Are you kidding?! He's the top oboe player in [insert local orchestra here]! The player never looked down on any plastic horn again.
True story I remember, if anyone could find the thread that's posted in and help my case, I'd appreciate it...
Like I said, I play a wood clarinet and a wood bass, so I'm not bashing wood at all.
Reason for edit: Typos.
Post Edited (2011-06-13 01:19)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-06-13 01:26
Quote from David : - Some hear and feel what others don't. Others simply won't admit what is obvious to some. And still others see where nothing is to be seen.
As you are probably aware David, those statements of yours are a two edged sword, that is , they can be applied both ways.
Quote from Barry : - And "The more things change, the more they remain the same". This is referring to human nature of course.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2011-06-13 01:30)
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-13 02:37
I don't mean to offend anyone, really. It's just what I believe and what I've read on this (very informative!) board. A great player will sound great on whatever horn he plays, and I'm sure everyone here is a great player.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-13 03:43
Kontra wrote:
"A player went to a repair shop and saw an oboist walk out with a plastic horn. The player says, wow, a plastic oboe, he must not be very good. The repairman looked at him funny and said, "Are you kidding?! He's the top oboe player in [insert local orchestra here]! The player never looked down on any plastic horn again."
The technician was Hans Moennig and the oboist was the principal of the Philadelphia Orchestra.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-13 04:34
"Well, from what I know, it has been scientifically proven material doesn't matter."
I don't think you're correct. In fact I don't think such a proof is either practically or conceptually possible.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 04:45
I still maintain that strawberry Jell-O is the best clarinet material. And, when you're done practicing, you can eat your instrument. No fat and low in calories too. Try THAT with grenadilla or hard rubber!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-13 06:07
>> who will do anything to sell his product. Wouldnt you??? <<
Absolutely not.
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Author: dibble
Date: 2011-06-13 10:01
Again, Ridenour, HIMSELF, wrote that his rubber clarinets sound close to rosewood and lack the edginess of grenadilla in the upper register. So, it seems that arguing that material does not matter would be arguing against the designer of the very clarinet many of you play (I play lyrique too, but as an outdoor horn).
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-13 16:21
Mr. Ridenour has also stated that the hard rubber produces a warmer tone and that out of blind tests, many instructors and other clarinets preferred the sound of the rubber clarinet. His main arguments for his clarinets is not that material doesn't matter, it's that hard rubber is easier to machine, has a warmer tone, and that it doesn't cost ANY more for good dimensions than it does bad dimensions.
He doesn't believe material doesn't matter, he believes hard rubber is BETTER than grenedilla.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-13 16:32
I'm just stating what I believe, and I base it on what I've read from others on this board and other boards.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-13 17:07
An interesting experiment would be to take 3 hard rubber and 3 grenadilla clarinets of the same model and have them all prepped by the same technician prior to a play test. The player would then be blindfolded and asked to play each one and rank them from best to worst. I'd be willing to bet money that the top 3 would not all be grenadilla.
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Author: Kontra
Date: 2011-06-13 17:35
Someone did something similar, except we as the listener must decide. Look up "Metal Clarinet Test" on Google.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-13 18:02
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Though the player might be able to feel the material in the
> fingers.
>
> Would love to do that though.
>
I suspect that something could be done to prevent this. Perhaps placing pieces of tape on the body of the instrument where fingers are likely to touch in order to mask the prescence or absence of wood grain?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-13 19:38
SteveG_CT wrote:
> DavidBlumberg wrote:
>
> > Though the player might be able to feel the material in the
> > fingers.
> >
> > Would love to do that though.
> >
>
> I suspect that something could be done to prevent this. Perhaps
> placing pieces of tape on the body of the instrument where
> fingers are likely to touch in order to mask the prescence or
> absence of wood grain?
You can also have the person wear latex gloves. It will be enough to seal toneholes, but should disguise the material's feel from the fingertips.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-13 19:50
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> What about the weight of the thing?
>
This could be compensated for as we're not talking about huge weight differences. Perhaps lead weights attached to the back of the thumb rest to even things out?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-06-13 19:53
Owning Tom's Lyrique (which is a good horn) and comparing it to any of the other many wooden horns that I own (none of which are a new grenadilla instrument from Tom) you quickly discover that you initially have to work harder to project in the lower register. After a couple days I acclimate to the difference and don't notice any longer.
Several Lyriques have come into my town based on my recommendation, and the ones I've played are the same.
If his wooden horns are similar then you could have a reasonable test -- if they're different it's a dead giveaway. It will be interesting to eventually discover whether that is a bore design or a material matter.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-13 20:10
Tobin wrote:
> If his wooden horns are similar then you could have a
> reasonable test -- if they're different it's a dead giveaway.
> It will be interesting to eventually discover whether that is a
> bore design or a material matter.
It will be interesting to find out the particulars of the new clarinet design. I suspect that the design will be very similar to the existing Lyrique design but maybe Tom has added some new tricks.
If you wanted to do the material test now I would do it with B&H clarinets as they produced a few models that were available in both grenadilla and hard rubber.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-13 20:32
For that matter, wouldn't the the r13 vs the greenline be a material only difference?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: clariza
Date: 2011-06-13 21:04
Ridenour himself says in a note to Leslie Craven's review of the Lyrique, that the less resonant low register was a design decision taken to favour the upper register, not a function of the material used.
http://www.lesliecraven.co.uk/reviews/reply_ridenour.html
Post Edited (2011-06-13 21:05)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-06-13 22:48
Thanks for the explanation and clarification Clariza.
It's a shame because the conflict that Tom is intending to avoid is not one that I have experienced that frequently with the horns that I own. There is more orchestral solo playing in the second register and up, to be sure.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: dibble
Date: 2011-06-14 11:00
Without the lower register, I would soon rather play a different instrument. i LOVE that part of the clarinet. As an improvisor, I am down there a lot.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-14 12:16
For what it's worth, Les Craven discovered a barrel/bell combination fixed the lower register issue.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-06-14 22:59
Thanks for all the comments. Perhaps a hybrid clarinet is feasible- one with an ebonite body and wood barrel and bell, as Cravens indicated.
richard smith
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Author: dibble
Date: 2011-06-17 09:46
If we start getting into buying fancy gear made of wood to make a rubber clarinet do what wood does, what is the point? May as well buy a wooden bliss, a ridenour wood (be careful of rusting springs!) or a good used R13. If I could go back in time, this is what I would have done.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-17 17:19
The fancy gear (extra barrels/bells) does not have to be wood. Its just easier to find made of wood. Not too many manufacturers of non-wood barrels and bells.
I think I'm gonna side with a previous thread I asked about months ago and say that the main thing to look for in a clarinet is tuning. Tone can change with barrels and.mouthpieces. the fact that the ridenour is hard rubber is only a bonus (to me) making it more resistant to moisture and temperature changes. As long as the tuning is good.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2011-06-17 20:15)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2011-06-17 19:52
For what it's worth...on my Ridenour Lyrique I use a metal bell by Kelly Mouthpieces. The low register opens up splendidly with the use of the Kelly bell.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2011-06-18 02:05
I have no problem with the lower range of my Lyrique at all, it sounds very resonating (full bodied). Maybe I just got lucky with my particular clarinet.
I usually use a Forestone F4 reed on a B45 dot Vandoran MP but other reed/ MP combinations work quite well also.
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Author: Bobby McClellan
Date: 2011-06-23 20:38
I saw on Tom's website that the grenadilla clarinet would be availale at the end of June, he also mentioned adding the left hand Ab/Eb key to the Lyrique clarinets. Wonder what reason he had for that?
He is doing alot of changes apparently, wonder how the wood model will do.
Bobby M. McClellan
Flowood, MS
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Author: Bobby McClellan
Date: 2011-06-24 23:31
Tome did one of his videos about the G1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi1kZw_afHM
Does not give spcifics but at least we can see the thing.
Bobby M. McClellan
Flowood, MS
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-09-29 01:56
Hi,
I played a friend's new Ridenour today and I liked it. However, I compared it side-by-side to my Leblanc L200 and old Buffet R13 Academy Model and the L200 is still the champ. I did not get an opportunity to play too long but the ergonomics are nice and the intonation is spot on.
Would I play the going price though? I don't know as I have the L200, had the Academy, and also own a Selmer 9* with a heavily pinned upper section that is an amazing clarinet. The total I have in these these three instruments - including repairs - is still less than a new Ridenour. New does not mean that much to me; it's how the instrument plays over time.
HRL
Post Edited (2011-09-29 01:57)
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