 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-13 16:10
Been having a tough time in concert band lately. Tuning between sections. Here's what I see...
Us (clarinets) tend to stay in tune with each other, and tune well to the saxes. The flutes (to my ear) end up going pretty sharp, especially playing up high. And after about two or three songs, the trumpet section leader will tell me, "You guys are high. Bring it down". After about three songs, we recheck the tuning, and I seem to be only a few cents high. Pull out about 1 mm and I'm good to go.
I'm wrestling with how to deal with the issue. I feel as though the reason we are not in tune with the brass is because the clarinets and saxes are in tune with a tuner. While practicing, I'll routinely check with a tuner and I'll seem to be fine.
Am I correct in thinking that a hard rubber clarinet, once warmed up, realy wouldn't fluctuate that much in tuning (at least probably not as much as a metal instrument?) But if that's the case, how are we pretty good with the saxes all the time? And really, where is the line? Are we to try to get the band to stay in tune with a tuner? Or with each other? Who do we listen to? We're being told to "listen back", and "listen down", which would mean that the clarinets and flutes (being up front) are to listen to the trumpets and trombones to tune. But then who do THEY listen to and I guess we have to trust that they are in tune with a tuner at all times?
It's starting to frustrate me a little as it's the same issue over and over again, and the same sections with the same tendencies. Clarinets match each other and the saxes. Trumpets match the trombones. Flutes match the clarinets and saxes except for altissimo. I'm not in a position to really dictate how everyone is supposed to adjust, but at the very least I'm looking for what I or my section can do so that we at least have a good, correct defense if we get told we're too high (which is what we get told about twice every concert band).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-13 18:07
IMO a band should behave tuning-wise as a swarm o' fish behaves with sudden direction changes - it should happen as a big organism, not per dictate of a specific section. When I accompany a soloist, it's my responsibility to be in tune with him/her, as good as I can, and as far off the soloist may be. But I'm not the lead, thus I adapt.
With tuning it's the same as is with tempo - whoever has the lead melody is right (objectively or not), and the others follow. It's the director's job to correct the lead players if they can't keep being in tune or tempo.
--
Ben
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-06-13 19:38
You have identified a common band problem and I don't know how to solve it in a practical way. It also occurs in orchestras with wind players. However:
1. One should not feel guilty if one can't match the pitch of out-of-tune players. The clarinet can't follow the sharp pitch tendencies of the trumpets or the flutes in their third register, unless a short barrel is put on and play sharp in general.
2. Rampal said that there was no reason a good flute player could not play in tune in the third register. Aiming the air stream at the toes and using a relaxed frowning embouchure is a good start. It is part of learning to play the flute, but a lot of band flutes play sharp in the third register. The band leader and the flute section leader can show the way, but they often don't. A certain type of piccolo player can make it even worse.
A concert band I play in has the long time lead trumpet from the Harry James band and who also recorded with the Miles Davis big band. They still play sharp at times on high notes but I don't know why. Good luck!!
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-13 22:58
An actual in-tune clarinet section is incredibly rare, an in-tune concert band even more so. I've played in one that came close, and it took a lot of attention from everyone in the group (and an intricate system that worked quite well once everyone trusted it, which is no small feat because actually playing in tune with other like instruments is very disconcerting... it can feel like no sound is coming from your horn). In most bands, it's just a difference between "we're more or less in the realm of in-tune" and "Holy Sausage McMuffin, Fred, there aren't quarter-tones in this piece!"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-14 00:30
I'm surprised the clarinets (and saxes) are sharper than the trumpets (and brass). In fact, I wonder if the trumpet section leader is right. It's more likely that the brass have gone up more than the woodwinds, in which case trying to "bring it down" to please him(her?) would make things worse.
To make matters more difficult, wind instruments (both brass and wood) have different tendencies at different dynamics. So fortissimo and pianissimo can produce different sets of intonation problems.
These tuning problems exist in orchestral wind sections, too, but the difference is that there are fewer players - usually one on a part - so adjusting tends to be a more individual project.
I think, based on my very limited band experience since college 40 years ago, that the best you may be able to do is stay in tune with your section and section leader. The section leaders then need to iron these issues out among themselves, with the help of the conductor if necessary.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-14 02:47
That's the thing. I'm thinking that the brass section might end up being sharper, but all they hear is that it's "out" and so tell the woodwinds that we're too high. In that case, making myself flatter would be detrimental and make it even worse.
Next time we have woodwind sectionals (not often, but it happens), I think I'll have everyone tune, play two straight songs (about 8 - 10 minutes of playing), then immediately play a tuning note or two and see just how getting "warmed up" affected their tuning. Hopefully this will give us a better idea of how we each personally have to adjust after getting fully warmed up.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-14 06:30
A good rule of thumb in wind band is that, unless you're at the top of your section or playing a solo, if you can hear yourself clearly, you're too loud, out of tune, or both.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-14 07:57
1. You're right, the band should be tuned only after a few tunes have been played. Then all players and instruments have 'warmed up'.
2. Brass are usually miles sharper than anyone else, especially when loud.
3. Ignore the tuner. What you have to do is to play in tune with everyone else. I mean, you can check with the tuner at the end to see how sharp (or flat?) the whole band is (we often end up playing at 444), but that's all. If the whole band is miles sharp, have a quiet word with the bandmaster afterwards... there's a limit to how far some instruments can push in.
4. I find it's best to tune to whoever's the flattest instrument, usually a clarinet (unless there are oboes). Then everyone can pull out.
5. You've got an equal right to tell the brass to sharpen up (if you think that's really what's needed!) It's not their place to tell you when you're out of tune. Though they can ask the bandmaster if they feel their section isn't right. Hey, they might have their own tuner set to a different A. (The number of times I've asked people, 'what is your tuner set to?' and got a 'huh?' in reply!) In fact the correct response to goading by the brass is to ask to tune the whole band. In my experience the bandmaster will then tune the brass against the clarinets Of course if the brass turn out to be at the end of their tuning then yes, you will have to pull out.
6. When you go to band, tune to wherever you were last time you were at band and it was in tune. Ignore the tuner until afterwards.
7. If you're not sure, always assemble your clarinet slightly pulled out. Then you've got room to sharpen it. Never assume that 'all pushed together' = 'right'. That's very rarely the case, except for beginners who always play flat whatever you do.
8. When you play a tuning note, play it at your normal warmed-up embouchure. Some people make the mistake of 'lipping it in' and pretending they're in tune. As a sometime bandmaster I can hear them doing it and it drives me nuts. The note starts out rough and 'comes in'. That's not tuning.
9. As EEBaum said, if you can't hear everyone else, you're too loud. This is one reason a bandmaster will pick out a weak countermelody and practice it separately. It ain't just to get them to play louder. It's to get everyone else to listen for it, as they might not have been aware of it (not playing from the score, of course).
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-14 12:04
sfalexi wrote:
>
> Next time we have woodwind sectionals (not often, but it
> happens), I think I'll have everyone tune, play two straight
> songs (about 8 - 10 minutes of playing), then immediately play
> a tuning note or two and see just how getting "warmed up"
> affected their tuning. Hopefully this will give us a better
> idea of how we each personally have to adjust after getting
> fully warmed up.
>
I'm taking from this that *you* are the clarinet section leader. You have to be careful that this doesn't lead to finger pointing among sections (e.g. "we were perfectly in tune after 10 minutes of playing in our sectional, so if there's an issue now with the brass it must be *their* fault."). The end goal isn't to be the only one in the room who's right, it's to play better in tune with each other. In general (as Adam suggested) it should be easier for whoever is higher to come down to someone else's lower pitch - there's usually room to pull a barrel or slide out but no adjustment is possible if the barrel or slide is already all the way in.
The biggest two obstacles to tuning, in my opinion, are strong player egos that insist that their pitch must be right and weak ears that don't accurately assess who is sharper/flatter than whom. The tuner is useful mostly to correct the second problem.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-14 12:23
I agree with the playing to who's flatter. There has been many a time where I've tried to match someone and I simply CANNOT compress the clarinet anymore. It doesn't go together anymore.
I think a big problem IS that we tune when people aren't warmed up. People assume that playing a few notes is "warming up". Not enough air through the horn, the horn's temperature doesn't change, and they spend all of 1 minute "warming up". Of course tuning at this point doesn't work. I'll point it out next rehearsal. Running through scales or long tones for probably at LEAST 5 minutes would be better than showing up 2 minutes before, and playing some broken up nonsense for about 1 minute.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-06-14 18:03
I've talked to our harp player about this. He tunes to 441 at the beginning of rehearsal. He says he does that to attempt to reach the brass because their tuning goes skyhigh. I know personally, I can blow my pitch down but I have a very hard time blowing it up. Is that common with clarinet? Our oboe players can fluctuate pitch up and down a fair amount with embouchure. Is there a common theme among which instruments can be blown up and/or down without mechanically adjusting intonation by pulling out or pushing in?
That brings me to a question about the particular note used. I played in an orchestra a few years ago where our conductor had the brass tune to a Bb and everyone else tune to an A. The reason behind that was (I guess) Bb is more natural for brass players (slide all the way in for trombones and maybe not as many valves pressed for the others?) This was the only place I had ever seen that. Does it work better for brass players tuning to a Bb? I know the (open) A works for string players. I know when I tune, I have to tune to several notes in different registers before the tuning note is given (ah, that long B being flat).
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-14 18:43
So many American orchestras claim to tune to A440, but when you talk to the players you find that even if they start there, they've climbed at least a couple of Hz by the middle of the first piece. Since no one is tuning to the harp, it probably doesn't make any difference to the orchestra, and he may be already a little flat by the time he plays anything exposed. As to lipping ("blowing") up or down, you can only do that within limits on any instrument before the tone loses its center and becomes hard to control. Double reeds may have more flexibility with pitch but they don't generally sound good when they're pushing the limits. It's better to take care of overall pitch adjustments mechanically and shade with the lips, mouth shape and fingers when individual notes need to move.
The few bands that I've played in have all tuned to a B-flat. It's the natural scale for all B-flat instruments and lies well for E-flat instruments as well. I'm not sure it makes any difference between A and B-flat for flutes, oboes or bassoons, so the only one in a band who might find B-flat inconvenient is the string bass player if there is one. Orchestras tune first to an A because the strings tune first their A strings and then the others by perfect fifths starting with A. To tune an orchestral stringed instrument to B-flat would involve putting a finger down on the A string, which isn't a particularly accurate way to tune the string itself. I've always been a little suspicious of using a second tuning note at B-flat for the woodwinds and brasses, but it's done as often as not even among some accomplished orchestras (years ago I heard the Philadelphia Orchestra use two pitches at a concert that Stokowski conducted). I guess if no problems result from it, it works better for the trombones and trumpets than finding 2nd position or trusting the intonation of 2nd valve. You just have to hope the oboist's instrument produces a good B-flat.
Karl
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-14 21:20
Generally the clarinet is played near the top of the pitch. Not as sharp as possible, but near. This doesn't hold for every instrument (any sax doublers want to chime in?).
Brass go sharper when loud; clarinet tends to do the opposite. The only time I've known the brass to be flat is outdoors in the middle of winter. They just can't warm the instruments up.
Concert Bb is a natural note for many brass instruments and also clarinet. Tuning to concert A has risks associated with the long clarion B. On my own instrument that note is sharp unless I pull out the bell a little.
I've watched an oboist trying to tune to a concert Bb. It was very funny.
Post Edited (2011-06-14 21:20)
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2011-06-15 01:47
As an amateur player with hearing loss who has more than my share of problems playing in tune, I have a some questions for Alexi:
You wrote of a tuning problem in your concert band, and you identify yourself as a member of the Army Signal Corps Band. Is the band with this tuning problem the Army Signal Corps Concert Band? If so, the thought that a professional band would have these tuning problems makes me wonder about the tuning of the community bands that so many of us play with.
What does your conductor think about these tuning issues?
George
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-15 03:16
Karl wrote:
"So many American orchestras claim to tune to A440, but when you talk to the players you find that even if they start there, they've climbed at least a couple of Hz by the middle of the first piece."
It is true, the natural tendency of the instrument is to rise in pitch as it gets warmer. (Though it should be warm before the concert starts.) But, attentive musicians that wish to maintain 440, 442, or any other level, can and do. However, temperature is not the sole cause, and not even the main cause of pitch climbing.
In orchestras, an often over-looked, or flat out unacknowledged problem arises: A player will, in their desire to project through or over-top of the group, play sharper rather than project in the proper manner. This can happen in a solo passage, or worse, come from someone that feels their tone is so beautiful that it should always sit on top of the group. Player A climbs, others rise to stay in tune, Player A climbs a bit more and a bad cycle can begin. Far too often there are several players that feel they should be the star, and you end up with Players A B C and D in a bitch fight with everybody trying to keep up. A bleaker situation occurs when players are unaware they are doing this. You reach a rehearsal break, or intermission, and have 90 musicians looking around stunned as to how everything could have gone so awry. Yet even worse is the tone deaf conductor that can't hear what is causing it. It can be solved with attentiveness and an abandonment of ego, but this does not always occur.
Another issue arises with how the strings tune. I am not a violinist so it is not my burden to bear, but as we all know, tuning a "perfect" 5th puts the interval 2 cents too large. But that's their onus.
2 Nuggets of Joy
-------------------------------------------------------
I remember joking with my section mate about the tuning note. "Yeah, I play the A in tune with the oboe. Then I actually play in tune when rehearsal starts." Does a practiced wind musician need to tune? (Or do they just need the opportunity to make sure their beautiful sound is projecting into the hall?..........)
Addressing pitch with another musician is a tricky issue. I was talking to an old vet sometime back in a somewhat relaxed setting. He gave me a piece of advice: "Well, Jason, the thing is, you see...... [puffs on his cigar].... there's 3 things you never discuss with a fellow musician. Religion, sex and pitch." There are 2 inherent lessons in that nugget of wisdom. It took me a few years but I finally got it. First, you don't mention it because it offends the other person because they can't hear it. Second, you don't mention it because it doesn't need to be.
-JH
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-15 07:52
>> how the strings tune.
I'm told that a good violinist knows how to tune the intervals slightly 'off', listening for a slow beat between strings.
String player friend of mine once picked up my guitar (which I can't play), declared, 'this is terribly out of tune!' and proceeded to try to tune it in fifths. On the top E string there was a terrible 'sproing' noise...
>> "I play the A in tune with the oboe. Then I actually play in tune when rehearsal starts."
Not just me then?
Yes of course we have to tune. Just not necessarily to the oboe And definitely not to a tuner.
>> in their desire to project
Of course, if you have a solo and you overblow you sound flat. So you hurriedly push in! On returning to normal dynamics you're sharp...
Post Edited (2011-06-15 07:58)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-15 07:55
"If so, the thought that a professional band would have these tuning problems makes me wonder about the tuning of the community bands that so many of us play with."
Not much wondering necessary. The intonation is almost universally poor in any wind band that isn't constantly on the ball about it. I've heard quite good wind bands, even, where the tuning note itself seems to be played out of tradition rather than with any plan to do something about it. The concept of tuning each note differently based on context is even more foreign.
"S&G Tuning", I call it.
Good intonation is rarely taught/learned properly, and even more rarely put into practice throughout an ensemble in a coherent manner. The better a group is, generally, the less tolerance for crunchiness they have, and so the smaller the cents-off margin tends to be before someone in the group cringes and tries to fix it.
Dig far enough and you discover that there is usually no right answer for intonation. Equal temperament is a compromise, as are all other tuning systems, save for some very meticulously-notated and difficult-to-perform (though often incredible-sounding) just intonation music.
The closer you get to fixing intonation problems, the more finely tuned your ear becomes, the more nuanced compromises you begin to hear. Get everyone on the same note playing the same frequency (which is no small feat) and you might hear that a major third should be tuned lower and a minor third higher, a perfect fifth a hair higher for greater consonance. Then you put a minor 7th lower. Finer yet, you may notice that interval intonation seems to work differently depending on the distance of octave displacement. Further still, it becomes crucial which note is in the bass, as a C major chord built on a C has an entirely different harmonic vocabulary than a C major chord built on an E. Somewhere along the line, it becomes more academic than practical, of course.
A simple example of the problem would be this: If you're in C major, and you're lowering the E by 14 cents to make the chord more in tune, and the piece modulates to E, which E do you modulate to?
Or, if you're staying purely in equal temperament, you have the equally perplexing dilemma that all the intervals you want to tune will sound quite out of tune to the ear.
Add to this the extra level of funkiness in a wind band (as opposed to the "play within 5 cents and use vibrato to smooth the difference" strings and non-doubled winds of an orchestra) and the bands' general tendency to be blow-your-brains-out affairs, and it's almost guaranteed to be an intonation disaster, especially if performers are left to their own devices.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-15 08:30
sfalexi:
It might not be a bad idea to get all the principals together for a sectional or two just working on pitch. When I was in Marine Band San Diego we did this, with good effect on target.
We later managed to convince the director to allow a couple of the musicians with professional civilian experience (read: college degrees and freelance orchestral work) to spend a couple afternoons doing seminars on intonation. We covered what playing in tune actually means, what is involved, the tuning system we use, how to go about making a tuning chart for an instrument, how to check your pitch against a drone, how to play in tune in ensemble, how to play in a relaxed way with excellent air support, what to listen for, etc., etc... and we were sure to start with the more cerebral aspects of pitch and working towards the practical application, with a break after every 40 minute seminar to do some kind of practical exercise.
The seminars had outstanding effect; I don't believe I've ever heard any Marine Band play so well in tune - we made the MCRD parade deck ring like a bell! ...but of course it's one of those never ending battles. We had a series of rehearsals where our director insisted on FFF+ as a baseline dynamic and it wrecked the whole exercise. So make sure you have leadership support in this as well, because a director can ruin intonation if he's asking for the wrong things.
Fact is, half of your players learned the wrong things at AFSOM, and a quarter of them learned nothing. If you're lucky, you've got ten players who really know what they're doing. Getting the others to unlearn the bad habits is a really, REALLY difficult task - especially if the staff wants to be hardheaded about it, but it can be done if you approach it the right way. You mentioned that you might not be in a position to dictate for everyone to adjust. I take it you are a relatively junior soldier... you'll probably have to appeal to their sense of mission accomplishment and emphasize the team-oriented/collaborative aspects of being a member of a military band.
Post Edited (2011-06-15 08:35)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-15 12:20
Paul Miller wrote:
> sfalexi:
> Fact is, half of your players learned the wrong things at
> AFSOM, and a quarter of them learned nothing. If you're lucky,
> you've got ten players who really know what they're doing.
> Getting the others to unlearn the bad habits is a really,
> REALLY difficult task - especially if the staff wants to be
> hardheaded about it, but it can be done if you approach it the
> right way. You mentioned that you might not be in a position
> to dictate for everyone to adjust. I take it you are a
> relatively junior soldier... you'll probably have to appeal to
> their sense of mission accomplishment and emphasize the
> team-oriented/collaborative aspects of being a member of a
> military band.
>
I believe this is definitely a main part of the problem. Junior in rank, not so much anymore, but I have no college degrees, civilian performance, musical experience to draw from, and just started lessons last year so junior in musical experience/knowledge, yes. Of our band, about half of them have college degrees, but I've learned from being in the army and seeing some players elsewhere that having a college degree in music does NOT automatically make you a good musician. I'll have to do some thinking about how to approach this and more importantly, WHO I approach. I need to find the soldier that has a GREAT sense of tuning, and can also communicate and teach it well.
I'm DEFINITELY glad to hear that this is not unique to the few bands I've been in. Funny thing is, the community band I was in had EXCELLENT tuning at their concert. Don't know what happened, but in near 100 degree weather we simply sounded great! Wish I knew what I and others were doing different in that band that is NOT happening at work.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-15 14:51
>> Wish I knew what I and others were doing different in that band that is NOT happening at work.
Well that's the thing.
My favourite theory is that it all goes wrong when people try to play the tuning note in tune. And then as soon as the music starts they play at a different pitch.
- So I warm up.
- I warm up the instrument.
- Then I warm up me, and I remind myself how the embouchure works.
- Check all the notes are there and the registers are in tune with each other.
- Then, when I'm happy with the instrument and the embouchure, I play the tuning note.
- If it's off, then I'M OUT OF TUNE.
For whatever reason, it seems that many people get the idea that you're supposed to play the tuning note in tune. This is just not the case.
But it's only a theory.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-15 15:17
Bassie wrote:
> My favourite theory is that it all goes wrong when people try
> to play the tuning note in tune. And then as soon as the music
> starts they play at a different pitch.
>
> For whatever reason, it seems that many people get the idea
> that you're supposed to play the tuning note in tune. This is
> just not the case.
>
> But it's only a theory.
So, what happens is, not so much that they try to play the tuning note in tune rather than playing their best version of the tuning note and then adjusting if necessary (I don't argue that this often is the case), but that even if they've got the tuning note adjusted correctly, they simply stop adjusting after that. It's as if tuning one concert A (or even B-flat) on their instruments inoculates them somehow from the need for any further tuning. Tuning the tuning note somehow immunizes them from any further danger of being out of tune.
Tuning is an ongoing activity. The context as well as the tendencies of various instruments under various circumstances demand that, to be even nearly in tune most or all of the time, a player must be continually questioning his/her pitch and ready to adjust if necessary.
Karl
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-06-15 17:19
I used to get agitated in high school with our bands' intonation. I'm betting this was a time constraint issue, but my band teacher never broke out a tuner until the concert (and maybe the dress rehearsal). I don't think any of us had our own tuners, so how were we supposed to get used to knowing what good intonation sounded like unless we were taught? If it was particularly bad, then he would quickly tune, but it was usually section by section (as opposed to individually) unless it was really bad within the section. Of course, I think another part of that problem was that most of the people in band really didn't care. I wondered why so many of them were even there.
As for orchestra tuning, the groups I play in (2 out of the 3 at least) have intonation issues. Orchestra concerts in noticably warmer or colder places always kill my ears because of the pitch divergence between instruments that doesn't get addressed as much as it should (that is, the intonation of the winds going in the opposite of the strings; one goes sharp and the other goes flat).
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-16 18:58
Bassie,
I think you slightly misunderstood what I was referring to
as you wrote:
>> in their desire to project
Of course, if you have a solo and you overblow you sound flat. So you hurriedly push in! On returning to normal dynamics you're sharp...
It wasn't an issue of a player over-blowing to project, going flat, and then pushing in to compensate. Projecting occurs at all dynamics so over-blowing isn't the issue.
Rather, it is that a player during a solo passage will, often unconsciously, slightly play sharper than everyone around them as it feels, to their ears, that they are sitting on top of the orchestra. This can be accomplished, when needed, by adjustments in tonal production without changing one's pitch level. For instance, listen to a really great orchestra. A player, when called for by the music, can suddenly be heard from within the orchestra- even at a piano dynamic- only to then recede back into the texture of the collective whole. There is no change in pitch, but rather a change in tonal shape/timbre or whatever qualifier could be applied.
The greater problem is a player who feels they should be heard at all times. They can simply do this by playing loud- I have found a punch to the back of the head will remedy this. (If the conductor doesn't take care of it.)
What's worse though is the player who continually plays a few cents higher than the group to accomplish this. I personally can recall playing with a flautist who played in this manner. We started at 440 and [they] immediately began playing around 442. We slowly rose to meet [them]. Immediately [they] shot up a few cents, we slowly rose to meet [them]. Finally when it got to about 444 or 445, I put my clarinet in my lap and stopped playing. (I had my reed knife at the ready.) The tone deaf conductor stopped after a bit upon noticing this. I/we explained the issue..... well it became tolerable, but come concert time it was the group at 440 with "solo" flute at 442. That is more what I was referring to.
Another issue that hasn't been address is timbre. Put 2 players next to each other with a tuner. Well they can both be dead on with the tuner but sound terrible together. Sound color is an often over looked component of "playing in tune"
Alex,
as for "(as opposed to the "play within 5 cents and use vibrato to smooth the difference" strings and non-doubled winds of an orchestra)"
That most certainly not is what a good orchestra does.
I remember another quote about the tuning note but can't remember who said it to me.... anyways it was something like "Hell, it sounds like they're tuning just for the tradition of it."
-JH
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-16 19:30
OK, within 2 cents for a really good orchestra. It's not an intentional "let's just hit the ballpark", but by pure logistics it's nigh on impossible to have that level of precision for so many players. The vibrato, and the nature of a whole lot of strings playing together, makes it a whole lot easier to accomplish an in-tune-sounding section than a few clarinets with piercing tone and funky partials.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-16 19:36
>> It wasn't an issue of ...
Yeah, I know what you meant, I was just riffing on a good point.
I once knew a flautist who always stood out because he was terribly flat. The bandmaster would tune him, and he'd /pretend/ to push in a bit. I have never worked out what was going on there.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-16 21:28
A few clarinets with piercing tone and funky partials should be taken out back and shot
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-17 06:08
I mean that clarinets have piercing tone and funky partials in comparison to strings. The magnitude and intensity of difference tones and high harmonics achievable with two clarinets dwarfs anything you can do with strings.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-17 07:02
Alex,
That these acoustical phenomena exist is moot. Each instrument has its' own properties. A clarinet is more piercing if one chooses to exploit the instrument's inherent "funky" partials. A good orchestral clarinet section can blend these partials, and play in tune, in any myriad of ways. They can "penetrate", "float", "soar", "disappear into the texture" or whatever subjective terms you wish to apply, by changing color (emphasizing/de-emphasizing the harmonics in the sound, no?) That clarinets have to deal with blending in a different way is not important- it simply is and it is done or not done. More difficult is a pointless way of think.
I remember the strings rehearsing, without vibrato, in my orchestra to work on blend and tuning: so that is a misapplication of what vibrato accomplishes in a good string section. Easier or more difficult is a pointless way of thinking.
Every wind instrument has its' own "problems", but I don't care what they are, and they don't care what mine are when the stick drops. Listen to a good performance of Scherazade. The woodwind chords at the end of the first movement, when tuned and blended properly, sound like a pipe organ with no one instrument sticking out; least of all a piercing clarinet.
I've never played in a professional concert band but the same ends could still be achieved if dealt with.
-JH
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-17 08:23
Pitch vibrato, as used by string sections, will give the sound a small variance in pitch. Rehearsing without vibrato is great to nail down intonation and blend, but once you add the vibrato back you do have that pitch variance. Gives any note played with vibrato a very small but nonetheless existent range of pitch. In a good string section, that range will be more uniform.
There's something about strings vs. winds, though, and the sound produced by lots of them together. Strings tend to smooth out each others' discrepancies (to a certain degree, or at least an "OK" string section might just not have as much oomph as one that's spot on), where winds tend to magnify them.
Quadruple the quantity of winds on that last chord of Scheherazade and see if you can make it sound in tune. The chord is spread across the instruments in such a way that it's somewhat easy to blend, thanks to the orchestration of Rimsky-Korsakov, and to the limited winds in effect in the orchestra.
It's also a problem of the makeup of a wind band. There is almost no low end and a huge population in the middle registers. It does not mesh well with the harmonic series when the lowest three voices in a chord are all in the same octave, and when this range is populated by an assortment of instruments with different harmonic profiles and pitch tendencies. It turns to mush. Lots of bands add a contrabass or two to try to help the situation a bit.
A good orchestral clarinet section has two, maybe three or four clarinets, and they're usually all playing different notes. This is not by accident.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-17 08:38
Aside from the different issues per instrument, a lot of the problem is cultural. String players are in a situation where there is no expectation for any individual one of them to be heard (unless there's a solo), so the goal is to mesh as a section. An individual violin doesn't have a prayer of being heard when the whole section is playing unless he's FAR too loud or horribly out of tune. This concept is new and foreign to wind players, who have a history of always being heard, and who tune based on hearing their own sound and comparing it to that of other instruments.
However, when playing in *unison* with other like wind instruments (a concept that isn't the norm in orchestral lit but is always the case in wind band), the only indication that you're in tune and well blended is that you sound exactly like the person next to you, i.e. that you can't clearly make out your own sound. This is disorienting for people not trained for this situation, so they play louder or sharper, as suggested by many in the thread above. A comfortable wind player is a wind player who can hear himself clearly, and therefore, in a wind band setting, also a wind player who is out of tune.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-17 08:40
Any orchestration book or instructor will tell you that two of the same wind instrument on the same note is an invitation for trouble. Then wind bands come along and make that the situation *all the time.*
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2011-06-17 12:22
EEBaum wrote:
> Any orchestration book or instructor will tell you that two of
> the same wind instrument on the same note is an invitation for
> trouble. Then wind bands come along and make that the
> situation *all the time.*
>
Yep - and guess who's playing Tchaikovsky 5 tomorrow - all that long, exposed opening for the two clarinets in unison!
Still I think we're matching fairly well now.
Vanessa.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-17 21:53
Thank you Vanessa!!!
Alex, notice I stated that I have not played professionally in a wind band. I have played in a wind ensemble, and while there are more of any given instrument the same end effect can be reached. With the instrumentation of a wind ensemble, and chord voicing being different, a different approach may be employed. It is what it is and you deal with it. Thinking that something is more difficult, again, is POINTLESS. You either do it or you don't.
You can choose to exploit difference tones if desired- ever heard Trio for 2 flutes? A good second player can change what the principal sounds like by adjusting their own approach. A good second clarinetist can make the principal "project" more without the principal having changed anything at all.
As for the lack of doubled winds in orchestra- I have played Mahler and Bruckner with the entire wind, and brass, sections doubling (or bumping for those across the pond) and guess what, we magically found a way to blend.
As for an orchestration book or instructor telling me something- I could care less because a lot of those "experts" have never sat down in a group and done it. As for them telling me it is an invitation for trouble..... Well you can accept an invitation or not. I can invite you to my party and you can decide to accept or decline; at this point I could probably surmise your reply.
"A comfortable wind player is a wind player who can hear himself clearly, and therefore, in a wind band setting, also a wind player who is out of tune." How many times do people need to hear that timbre is just as important as pitch. If a wind player is uncomfortable, then that is their demon to wrestle with.
If I sound pissed, well I don't apologize because what you are implying is b.s. As a (former) professional orchestral clarinetist, both principal and second/Eb, I find your assertions very insulting because it degrades what I did. I would still be playing if not for extenuating circumstances. The fact it is quite painful for me to play right now is extremely frustrating as I feel I have no artistic outlet. I would not have even started "contributing" to this BBoard if I were not searching for some modicum of a way to continue to artistically express myself.
I would respectfully ask that you not degrade what good musicians can, and do accomplish regardless of any inherent difficulty.
I will now depart you as the U.S. Open is on, and I would much rather watch some golf than continue with what is apparently becoming a pointless argument.
-Jason
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-18 06:25
Some things are more difficult than others. It doesn't mean they can't be done, simply that they take more attention, skill, and/or technique.
As someone who played in both good wind bands and good orchestras who did and did not play well in tune, I have some experience in the matter, and I've spent the past year studying harmonics and intonation issues in depth, though I feel I've only scratched the surface of an incredibly rich field of study.
I'm not degrading, I'm exploring why some things are greater challenges than others. If people don't recognize that some things are harder, and WHY they are harder, there is a tendency to dismiss the poor intonation as "I guess I'm not that good at it," or, worse yet, to not notice it at all and just guess that that's how things are. "Play in tune", they're told, and, as you say, they either do or they don't. The problems persist, and are never fixed in a meaningful manner, especially if the section leaders and conductors don't realize where the attention is best spent. Having heard countless wind band clarinet sections, they all sounded perfectly fine to me until I heard one that actually played, really, in tune, after which I've wanted to scream "you can fix this!" at every wind band I've seen since. Recordings by Eastman, North Texas, the best wind bands, all have out of tune clarinet sections. An in-tune clarinet section sounds like one big, tone-rich clarinet, and doesn't have that characteristic "grrzzzhhh" tinge to it that we have all come to expect.
Very few ensembles I've played in have an ensemble concept of how to tune. It's generally put on the shoulders of individuals. "Play in tune!" they're told, but it's rarely explored how. There'll be a tuning note at the start (which is often an exercise in "everyone play your A together. OK, done" regardless of what was just played, and afterwards it's a bunch of guesswork where to listen. In an orchestral setting, it's generally a bit more obvious, with a lot of the instruments who blend well and few of those that don't as much, but a wind band is an entirely different beast.
The ones who are more innately attuned to it will cope better, but even the schmuck with lousy time sitting last chair can play with good intonation if the ensemble gives proper guidance.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-18 18:58
Alex,
I said I would not take what was turning into an argument any further, but I would like to reply. You are rather strengthening what I say.
You first sentences:
"Some things are more difficult than others. It doesn't mean they can't be done, simply that they take more attention, skill, and/or technique".
I would simply change one small thing. "Some things are different than others." They do not take more skill or technique. They do take attention, but so does any ensemble. Issues arise in orchestral playing that do not exist in a wind ensemble; so I could take your approach and pontificate that orchestral work is more difficult. Notice that I am not though; it is different and is dealt with as such. That is what is making me angry in your statements.
also:
...why some things are greater challenges than others. If people don't recognize that some things are harder, and WHY they are harder, there is a tendency to dismiss the poor intonation as "I guess I'm not that good at it," or, worse yet, to not notice it at all and just guess that that's how things are. "Play in tune", they're told, and, as you say, they either do or they don't."
Continuing to say, and think yourself, that a greater challenge exists between different ensembles will have the effect of an making uninitiated ear believe that a "solution" is too hard to achieve. Take note of the word you yourself wrote in caps. WHY. Perhaps the WHY may need addressed in a given setting, but approaching it with a mindset of "harder" is counter-productive. If a musician thinks to themselves "I guess I'm not that good at it" then they need to get good at it. If they don't notice it, then what the hell are they doing with an instrument in their hands?!
On some level I believe we are speaking of differing levels of skill. This thread was begun by someone speaking of what could be considered a professional ensemble. It sounds like you are coming at this from the other direction- a student ensemble. In a professional setting, if the conductor say "Play in tune" (which they shouldn't have to as a musician will realize what is going on and fix it themselves), then the person will fix it as it is their JOB.
In a student ensemble if a conductor says "Play in tune" and fails to explain all that is entailed in that, well you have a poor conductor. There are a lot a terrible Professors out there. Not to degrade as a blanket statement, as there are truly gifted instructors, "Those that teach do so because they couldn't do it." This is why I dismiss an orchestrator or instructor TELLING me anything. Often what is told in an academic setting is told by one who could not fix it themselves.
I too have experience in playing in wind ensembles and orchestras that both played in tune and not. I know what is entailed in both. That I choose to make my living in an orchestral setting does mean I am not aware of what arises in a "band." I do know what an in-tune clarinet section should sound like in a wind ensemble. That I do not chose to do this professionally is not important. As you said you have studied the field on intonation and harmonics. I would wager you could speak in more specific scientific terms about the subject than I could. (I am aware of what blanket applications of a given tuning system entails so I need no lecture on that.) However, the fact exists that I can hear it, can do it, and if given a wind ensemble clarinet section to coach could fix it. I have simply chosen not to pursue the wind ensemble path.
Your statements about the merit of tuning to an 'A' have been discussed. A good ensemble shouldn't even need a tuning note in most settings (extenuating circumstances dismissed.)
What I will not abide is someone continually trying to hammer home the fact that wind ensemble is more difficult than orchestra. It does degrade what I did professionally, did quite well not to be egotistical, and fed myself doing. Perhaps I am a bit overly sensitive to this currently as I am unable to play. Obviously this entailed me leaving my job. The fact I am 33 and my playing career may, but hopefully not, be over is difficult to accept.
as you wrote:
"The ones who are more innately attuned to it will cope better, but even the schmuck with lousy time sitting last chair can play with good intonation if the ensemble gives proper guidance."
If the "schmuck" sitting last chair can't do it in a pro setting then they shouldn't be there. If this is in an academic institution, then perhaps the school needs examined.
-Jason
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-18 20:19
I think we're getting hung up on semantics. Would you agree, though, that it is, for example, more difficult for a clarinet to bend his pitch up 14 cents than for a violin? Or for a clarinet, while playing a run, to adjust his A down 5 cents, his B up 7 cents, and his F# down 4 cents?
I'll stop using the word difficult, though, since it seems to upset you so. Rather, I will suggest that intonation in a wind ensemble requires an entirely *different* approach than intonation in an orchestra, and using the same methods of intonation in wind ensemble as in orchestra leads to poor intonation. Having been in a group that did have good intonation, it wasn't all that hard once we knew how to listen for it and make it happen, but it required an entire retooling of our approach which, to orchestrally and soloistically trained musicians, can seem quite counterintuitive and uncomfortable.
We would do workshops, where our director would demonstrate his entire procedure for tuning wind bands in about 10 minutes, and countless times, the feedback from return attendees was "it works when you do it, but not after you leave." Even with groups where he had visited their bands and successfully demonstrated the protocol. It's something that takes time and attention and trust and a setting aside of the player's ego to cultivate, and over the years I spent in that ensemble I saw its effectiveness wax and wane multiple times, depending on how much attention we paid to it, and how well new members understood it.
I still maintain that the vast majority of wind bands, even at very high levels, do not have in-tune clarinet sections. This is not due to any lack of ability of the players, because I've seen glimpses of high schools playing in tune with the proper attention, but because it requires a different approach and philosophy that runs counter to orchestral/soloist wind training.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-19 01:50
Alex,
I truly do not need to start a feud as I have enough crap I'm dealing with already.
I'm not exactly sure what more you want me to say. It may seem on the surface it is an issue of semantics; however sometimes the usage of one word can have a profound affect on someone. Semantics may actually be important. First, I think using the word "difficult" is a bad approach to take when addressing any musical issue, due to the negative connotations it carries.
Yet, that is not what upsets me so. What upset me was the continual viewpoint of one discipline being more difficult than another. In your last post you stated the very thing I have been asserting from the beginning of our exchanges:
"intonation in a wind ensemble requires an entirely *different* approach than intonation in an orchestra, and using the same methods of intonation in wind ensemble as in orchestra leads to poor intonation."
I have maintained and acknowledged that the wind ensemble requires a different approach, and never once degraded it in any manner. Yet, I would not say entirely different. The principles of "proper" intonation hold true whether in a clarinet section, a brass band, a woodwind quintet, or an accordion ensemble. Methods of pitch matching, dynamic shifting and tonal shading based on chord voicing, harmonic progressions, sound quality etc... hold true in any ensemble. A larger clarinet section needs to address these issues, yes. But so does any given group of instruments. However, you still do have one idea that I take issue with........
as you wrote: "it required an entire retooling of our approach which, to orchestrally and soloistically trained musicians, can seem quite counterintuitive and uncomfortable."
You seem to think that us orchestral musicians only approach music with the view-point of being a soloist; and are trained as such. I was not trained to be a solo machine. I was trained to be a musician, and indeed played in the wind ensemble for 4 years. The fact you imply I am not aware what constitutes a good approach to section playing is insulting. The fact that you negate the truth- that 90% of the time in orchestral music a wind player is not functioning as a soloist- shows me that you do not know what truly goes into orchestral performance.
---For an example, take a supporting chordal harmonic passage in any given orchestral piece. Say you have 2 clarinets, 2 oboes, 2 french horns, and the cellos in this role. As principal I am responsible for blending myself into this texture, matching myself with different instruments, making sure my section is doing what needs to be done- continually adjusting not just pitch, but color and dynamics depending on what the harmony is, all while listening across a large distance. Actually a larger distance than any clarinet section has to worry about. (I could in fact say that this is more difficult than what a compact wind ensemble clarinet section has to deal with, but I don't.)---
That is what an orchestral wind player does. It is the same principle of making a good clarinet section in a wind band. That I might get to play a long solo passage, or even just emerge from the texture for 3 seconds in passing a motive across the ensemble, is "icing on the cake" so to say. I am sick and tired of hearing, not just from you, that all an orchestral musician does is sit and practice excerpts. Truth is, my practice regimen was 80% exercises I made up to work on voicing, dynamics shifts, pitch variances, overtone exercises, infinite articulation variations etc... done on long tones, scales, arpeggios or what have you. This was done to be able to function as part of a cohesive whole. The other 20% was spent on more egotistical things such as a solo passage. (I rather hate playing concertos and prefer working to make the orchestra a cohesive whole.)
Given all these facts, I would rather hope you could see that what orchestral winds do is the same thing as a wind ensemble musician does. It is not, in fact, "a different approach and philosophy that runs counter to orchestral/soloist wind training." It is the same damn issue. I don't care if it is 20 clarinets, or 8 differing orchestral winds with strings- it is at a base level the same thing.
If you wish to continue a dialogue with me you need to acknowledge these things, or I will not continue to engage with you. I might actually be interested to hear the "system" of tuning your director employed. As you have studied intonation and harmonics, I might actually like to discuss what you learned as I may learn something. I know what and why I did something, but I could not always tell you the acoustic truth in a mathematical way. (Again I don't need a lecture on tuning systems. In my orchestra we employed a mixed Pythagorean/Mean-tone system but Just when called for.)
....and yes pitch adjustment on certain notes of the clarinet is more "difficult" than on a string instrument. But I don't care what is difficult for them nor do they care what is difficult for me.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-06-19 02:04)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-20 00:39
I can accept that, and I think that, to some degree we're arguing the same thing in very different terms. Perhaps a better phrasing for my angle would be that "in my experience, the default tendencies of orchestrally-trained musicians have often been." I tend to be fairly brash in my wording, and forget that some people read more into it than others (I've had people blow up at me for my use of "cool," which I use as a generic term for something I find interesting or awesome or exciting or of high quality, but can be mistaken for something that is accessible or popular), and that my hyperbole tends to be lost without hearing vocal inflections.
Mixed pythagorean mean-tone? Mega legit, man!
Let's move forward?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-20 03:16
Somewhat unsolicited, an all-too-long explanation of how I've seen great success tuning a large clarinet section, especially in wind band...
In an orchestra, the second clarinet, in addition to listening to the first clarinet, is listening all over the ensemble, especially to anyone playing the same pitch. This is fine, because the second is generally on a different note than the first clarinetist, and so a convenient pitch reference may best come from elsewhere.
In a wind band, there are multiple clarinetists playing the same note. If each of the three first clarinetists listens long-distance all over the ensemble, AND also tries to listen to the other clarinetists, the situation becomes even more complex than in an orchestra (which is plenty complex), and I would suggest that it can actually be more effective and much simpler for much of the ensemble.
Typically, you find the principal clarinetist listening across the ensemble to find the right pitch and perhaps to the other clarinetists, and the other first clarinetists also listening across the ensemble and also to each other. The principal may latch on to the trumpet's pitch predominantly, the second chair to the horn, the third to the flute. Given the instability in pitch over time due to adjustments and environmental factors, there are many places to listen with slightly different pitches. A better group will generally have smaller pitch discrepancies (on a good day perhaps a cent or less), but they always exist in a real world situation. (There also tends to be some ego-driven overplaying or sharpening going on, but we'll ignore that for now.)
The problem that frequently arises is that, with three competing decent players each making perfectly reasonable and competent adjustments, you never quite know which of them is in tune, and it's quite possible that, with imperfections in tuning theory, they're actually *all* in tune, in some context, while all playing very slightly different pitches, perhaps not different enough for a "holy crap, someone's flat", but enough for "it sounds a bit tweaked and fuzzy."
Given the inevitability of some level of pitch drift, the goal is to minimize the drift by knowing, at any time, exactly whose pitch you should be matching.
To fix: the principal finds the pitch from elsewhere in the ensemble (for which there is also a system), the second chair listens ONLY to the principal, the third chair ONLY to the second, etc. This way, there is no question about who has the "correct" pitch, as it's always the principal, nor is there a question about who is out of tune, as it's the first one down the line that you can hear distinctly. If you, as a section member, do not match exactly the pitch of the person one chair above you, YOU are wrong. Even if the principal's pitch is totally bogus, finding the proper contextual pitch is the principal's job, matching the pitch up the line toward the principal is your job.
The kicker: You will always hear sounds closer to you louder than sounds of equal volume further away. Therefore, in order to blend well with the performer "above" you, this system requires for you to play softer than that performer, ideally so that you don't hear yourself play, or at least you hear yourself as an aspect of and support for the sound of the performer above you. Initially, it may be significantly, uncomfortably softer, softer than the dynamic prescribes, though as time goes on and the trust and comfort are built, the discrepancy decreases, until perhaps the second chair is just a hair softer.
The first chair second and first chair third have hybrid jobs in this situation. When playing the same note or something contextually close, the top of the seconds listens to the physically nearest first. When playing significantly different notes, the top of the seconds listens elsewhere in the ensemble.
Some challenges that arise from this...
- A goal of never hearing one's self can be disconcerting. A common tendency is to sharpen ever so slightly, or to increase volume.
- Once playing perfectly in tune alongside a like instrument, it is possible to play at a significant volume without hearing one's own instrument clearly. Sometimes you may belt out a solid forte and still only clearly hear the player to your right. I thought my instrument was malfunctioning several times while getting used to this, as I could swear it wasn't making a sound at all.
- It requires section players to prefer the intonation of the player next to you over the intonation of the rest of the ensemble, regardless of whether you approve of the intonation of the player next to you.
- I've played in some egalitarian ensembles that very much dislike this concept because it puts some sort of codified hierarchy in place, suggesting that the principal is "better". Convincing the group that it's purely a logistical concern is key, but I've dropped the topic rather than getting into shouting matches before.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-20 06:21
Alex,
O.K. now we're getting somewhere.
My personality here and in real-life are quite different I assure you. In certain situations semantics are important; in no situation would I use the word difficult. Most importantly here, where there may be a high-school student, or younger, that sees that and has a mental block instantly placed in their mind. (The same reason it's better to give a student a positive image rather than saying "don't do this." I've paralyzed my golf game at times thinking "don't do this" instead of "allow yourself to do this.") And I think we've both come to agree that "more difficult" really doesn't work.
I err on the side of more formality here simply because I don't know what the audience is, but off the Board I'm an idiot. "Cool" or hyperbole would not bother me, but as you wrote, without vocal inflection it is difficult (?!) to know the true meaning of a statement.
I would agree that there are many orchestral "musicians" that do not realize their true role. However, these people are simply clarinetists to me as they seek aesthetic fulfillment through an egotistical path. I, and those that I consider true orchestral musicians, come at it from the other way around. What your approach to the wind ensemble seeks is the same way a clarinetist should approach orchestral playing. It is the same ultimate end goal, though admittedly reached in a related, but somewhat differing method. The basic lack of understanding, of most, in the arena of the orchestra annoys me, and is thus why I over-reacted to your statements. Yet the "good ones" understand and the idiots don't.
One prime example is the second movement of Brahms' Third Symphony. (Leaving vertical and horizontal intonation out for now.) How many idiots do I hear playing that excerpt, even though in rhythm, in such an affected overly "emotive" way that it shows the lack of understanding of what it actually is- a chorale! The principal clarinet may be the lead/soprano voice (though not all of the time, as the alto line has the melody some) but isn't a solo as such. In fact, in the full context of winds it can be played in varying ways. The principal clarinet can "sit on top" of the rest of the winds, and give a quite affective presentation. Also, the principal can play in a manner where they blend their tone so the entire opening truly sounds like a block of sound, with no one voice sticking out. (Although the aural perception as a player may differ a bit from the wind ensemble, it achieves the same end product in the audience.) Which is "most correct"?, well that's where you hope you have a good conductor to guide.
There are some instances in the orchestra, however, where I have felt my sound disappear completely as you speak of in the wind ensemble. The Scherazade (though brilliantly orchestrated by a master) was one instance. When we hit it right, it literally felt like I wasn't playing... until someone blinks and shifts their pitch 1 cent up or down! It took a keen ear to pitch and tone color to achieve this, though with differing instruments, much the same as a wind ensemble clarinet section must do. Many instances abound where I felt this: La Mer, the choral sections in the final mvmt. of Pictures ... Exhib., Bolero, (thank god for Ravel!), Bruckner, Missa Solemnis etc.... It is an aspect of orchestral playing that I would agree is sorely lacking today, as it does take a surrendering of ego, but is the most essential for me. (Though the Pines of Rome solo ain't a bad little gift.)
At least it seems we have quit hitting the tether-ball back and forth and come to a common grounds. I do have quite a few questions actually, but need to organize them in my head (a scary place to be) to most easily address things. ....And hopefully make it easier for anyone following this to know what the hell I am talking about.
.... and it was mixed Pythagorean/Mean-tone but Just when called for
-Jason
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-20 06:47
Looking forward to the questions, and given this discourse I hope/imagine it'll raise issues I haven't thought of for this system. (it's not my own creation, I've just been part of its successful implementation)
With just when necessary, of course. (to my preference, it would be Just Whenever Feasible)
I can't imagine your head being a much scarier place than mine, though we can have that contest some time if you like. Oh, and one time the fuss over the word "cool" was in person, vocal inflections and all. :P
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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