 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2010-12-22 13:38
I was surprised by an ad for two recent Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center performances of the Brandenburg Concertos which listed David Shifrin playing E-flat clarinet. Isn't that a little unusual?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-12-22 14:13
That sounds very strange. I have a very old recording of the Brandenburg 2nd with the high trumpet part performed on soprano sax and it's difficult to tell it's a sax because of the high range but Eb clarinet, I don't know about that. I just can't imagine why they would do that. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-12-22 15:50
The high 'trumpet' part of the Brandenburg #2 Concerto is very curious. It is suppose to be for a Trumpet in high F but the 'compass' (range) of the part is exactly that of the Recorder. (Middle C to two octaves above plus one tone to D).
Now the part just below this in the score is for the Treble Recorder in F and this part is written so as to have this instrument sound in C ( Treble Rec fingering). However , if one was to use the F Treble Recorder for the 'Trumpet' part , but play it as a C Recorder (Descant fingering) the 'F Trumpet' part becomes a very easy F Recorder part and sounds perfect ! .
Even better still if one were to use the F Sopranino Recorder for this part it ends up sounding really spectacular but of course without the volume or projection of a trumpet , in other words , a very nice chamber (indoors) version.
Because of this , some musicoligists have suggested that this IS a Recorder part , and not for a high Trumpet in F.
Apparently also , this is practically the only part ever written for a high F Trumpet.
So we now have the situation today of trumpeters busting their gut trying to play this thing on Bb piccolo trumpet when it is quite possibly an easy F Recorder part !
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-12-22 15:56)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-22 17:54
The recording on soprano sax was made in 1950 at the first Casals Festival in Prades. It was played by Marcel Mule with Casals on cello, Alexander Schneider on violin and John Wummer on flute (playing the alto recorder part) http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=74445. The notes say that they couldn't find a trumpeter who could play the part acceptably. It was great for 1950 sensibilities but sounds pretty awful today.
Frankly, I think substituting an Eb clarinet would be fine for an amateur reading session, but not much else. I've played the trumpet part on sopranino and soprano recorder in a reading session, but it didn't work, and I ended up deaf from the piccolo-pitch instrument. It's not difficult on recorder -- much less so than the dedicated alto recorder part.
The baroque natural trumpet is not nearly as loud as the valved piccolo trumpet, and baroque trumpet players have now mastered the part (though the first recordings are painfully out of tune).
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-23 11:52
I heard this recording some months back and LOVED it!!!
You need to listen to it before making a final judgement.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-23 13:02
I've read several accounts where Richard Strauss used a piccolo Heckelphone (in F) as a substitute for the trumpet in the 2nd Brandenburg - but they fell into oblivion.
How about using a sopranino sax as that's probably the nearest thing to a piccolo (or terz as they were in Eb) heckelphone nowadays? Though a soprano sax will probably have better tuning stability.
The thing with the Brandenburgs is with authentic instruments, the sound and volume of all the solo instruments match (blend or compliment each other) better than their modern day counterparts - the recorder will be the one that will struggle to be heard against modern oboes and trumpets if those players aren't being sympathetic and made worse still if the trumpet player displays the usual ego that goes with the territory ("higher, louder, faster!").
Although I do tire of some period performances of some pieces and yearn for a modern performance (but still treating it as a Baroque performance instead of going all-out symphonic), I do like to hear a good period performance or recording of the Brandenburgs.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-23 16:40
That's a pretty good article by Wikipedia standards!
There were Eb sopranino sarrusophones which may have been part way between an Eb musette and terz heckelphone in terms of bore size. I think the only modern sopranino double reed instruments still being built are Eb and F musettes by Loree, Marigaux and a few others.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-12-27 17:09
From the ASW Guide to Historical Woodwind Instruments site, a somewhat bighearted statement:
"The D clarinet was frequently employed as a substitute for the baroque clarino trumpet, and therefore all baroque trumpet literature is also fair game for the baroque clarinetist"
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-27 18:46
Or an empty-headed statement. How many companies even made D clarinets prior to the current micro-revival?
Among recorder players, the ASW site is considered (to put it mildly) unreliable. They push lots of instruments that are, frankly, unplayable.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-12-29 15:41
Hi Ken
"Or an empty-headed statement."
The second half of the statement is empty-headed, to put it mildly. The first half is not.
"How many companies even made D clarinets prior to the current micro-revival?"
I suspect they are referring not to modern instruments but baroque clarinets, which were mostly in D and C.
I was using ASW's ludicrous quote (that I was including as a joke because of the quote's conclusion) to make the point that there is evidence that baroque clarinets (usually in D) were sometimes substituted for clarino trumpets.
This, in addition to the fact that they are not certain on which trumpet Bach intended the Brandenburg to be played, has given credence to substituting Baroque D clarinet for certain trumpet parts like the Brandenburg. This has been extrapolated to modern players substituting Eb clarinet for high trumpet parts in Baroque music.
Simon
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-29 18:01
At a Messiah party (singing it all the way through, including Great Was the Company of the Preachers, which is never performed), I played The Trumpet Shall Sound on my C clarinet, to the amusement of all. And I got a C clarinet to avoid having to transpose, but this trumpet part is in D, so I had to transpose anyway. ![[mad]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie9.gif)
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2010-12-29 18:03)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-12-30 04:54
Ken Shaw is correct about the F 'piccolo'(sopranino) recorder making one deaf . When I performed this work, several times actually, on this high recorder I had ear plugs in. The high pitch of this instrument actually affects the inner ear. But this instrument sounds very well playing this part and it's high pitch sound cuts through everything. All the other instruments were modern , including the Oboe. Overall the balance seemed to be Ok also.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-30 22:12
By the way, David Munrow and his group made a recording of the Bach 4th Brandenburg Concerto playing sopranino recorders rather than altos. He was audible, in spades, but that's the best (only) good thing I can say about it.
The instrument is so high (a 4th above the piccolo) that the ear quickly gets too tired to listen to it. After many years of looking, I've found a sopranino I can bear to play, which makes itself heard by tone color rather than volume. It's handmade (by Tom Pescott), and if you need to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-12-31 00:58
There is a Antonio Vivaldi Recorder Concerto in C Major for Flautino and String Orchestra that is written for the F Alto Recorder but is more often than not performed on the F Sopranino. It is a delight to listen to when it's performed on the Sopranino. Of course it's performed by professional recorder players on quality instruments. My Sopranino recorder is a wooden Moeck and sounds very nice but no matter what quality of instrument you have , you still have to look after your ears.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-12-31 12:30
My F sopranino recorder is a plastic Aulos. When I tried playing it (just once), I understood exactly why the previous owner got rid of it for a dollar at a yard sale. Even though all my windows were closed, that ... thing set off every mutt in the neighborhood. The howling dogs sounded way more musical than I did.
Normally I'm all in favor of clarinet players stealing all the good music we can grab, but give me Maurice Andre on the trumpet any day for Brandenburg 3.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-31 14:13
Barry -
Vivaldi wrote three sopranino concertos -- the familiar one in C and two more, which are even more difficult.
Lelia -
Brandenburg 2. To my ears, Andre is amazing, but far too loud. Listen to any recent recording at 415 with natural trumpet. People have finally learned to play it smoothly and in tune, and if the trumpet player holds back, it balances perfectly.
Ken Shaw
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