 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2009-12-16 15:41
While viewing another topic (Selmer center tone keys) I followed a suggested link to http://www.williepee.com/instruments1.html and read with interest the statement about Leblanc clarinets through the LX series that "The springs were gold, not blued steel." My high school clarinet, which I still own, a Leblanc L7 (the one with the L7 on the inlaid mother of pearl) has gold colored springs which I assumed were either gold plated or brass. Looking at them now, I doubt that they're brass, since, 40 some years later, they're not tarnished. But I'd still bet on them being plated steel, not gold. Does anyone know?
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-12-16 16:00
I can't imagine that solid gold would have the needed elasticity to function as a spring. My bet is that, if they are gold, they are plated.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-12-16 16:02
I think you can be confident that the springs are not solid gold..
For starters gold would make a lousey spring and of course the cost would be prohibitive.
The springs on my 1960 LL pair still look and work good after all this time.
They must be simply gold plated over spring steel (but I am not going to destroy one of mine to prove this point!)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-16 16:17
Definitely gold plated steel as opposed to solid gold. The same with Buffet (SDA, S1 etc.) and SML saxes - the steel rusts and the plating flakes off them.
The only instruments I know that have solid gold springs (in white gold) are pro quality flutes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-12-16 16:30
-- "The only instruments I know that have solid gold springs (in white gold) are pro quality flutes." --
Chris, assuming you're not writing a Monty Python sketch about a music shop trying to sell plumbing accessories as wind instruments, just what the ^$&*# is white gold?
:-)
Steve
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-12-16 16:49
Haynes flutes have gold needle springs, but other metals are definitely alloyed in for hardness and elasticity. The first time I picked up a Haynes flute, I was amazed by the lightness and evenness of the action, even compared with other flutes, and I immediately wanted that for my clarinet.
However, clarinet technicians and even flute technicians said gold springs wouldn't work. Flute keys are all the same size and have the same very short action, so the springs are all the same size and strength. For clarinet, a different alloy would be needed for each size spring, and flat springs couldn't be made. Also, to get the Haynes matched lightness isn't possible with the varying length and action of clarinet keys.
I've handled oboes with a very light and short key action, but even that seems impossible on clarinet. Perhaps Chris P can tell us why not.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-12-16 16:51
There indeed is a gold alloy known as white gold. i think it uses silver as the other major component. Since gold is so soft, rarely do you see pure gold used in most applications. Pure gold is what is also known as 24 K gold (24/24ths gold. 14K gold is 14/24 gold, 10/24 other metals. You can see white gold at most jewelers. The metal actually has a silverish look to it, but does not tarnish. My HS graduation class ring is made of white gold.
Jeff
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-12-16 19:30
re Ken's question of oboe springing, the mechanism of the oboe (except perhaps the very lowest keys, which are only used in the lowest register) is very much lighter than the clarinet and the pads much smaller so there is therefore much less mass for the springs to move so they can be made much thinner and lighter.
The springs on the main RH and LH clusters of keys are typically only between .015 and .020" thick.
I believe there is also an opinion amongst many clarinetists that a brisk positive action is actually beneficial to producing or articulating the sound on the clarinet.
Perhaps historically also the significant use of clarinets in military bands led to their being provided with a more "robust" action.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-12-17 21:12
The flat springs on my Selmer are a bright copper colour; I suspect they are beryllium copper, a well-known rust-free spring alloy.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2009-12-17 21:57
The springs on my North Korean 'Freedom' clarinet are amazing. Not only do they glow in the dark, but they keep the clarinet warm during outdoor concerts and give me a great tan.
Not sure about the lithium plating on the keys but I sure don't feel worried about them any more.
Steve
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-18 04:33
"I believe there is also an opinion amongst many clarinetists that a brisk positive action is actually beneficial to producing or articulating the sound on the clarinet."
I have to agree that a lot of players think this. I do find that many clarinets are often set up to be rather strong. Yamaha has especiallly strong springs.
I have found only positive comments when I show people a clarinet that is set up with very light springs. It takes more time to get things feeling balanced, but it pays off in the end.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-18 04:34
>> The first time I picked up a Haynes flute, I was amazed by the
>> lightness and evenness of the action, even compared with other
>> flutes, and I immediately wanted that for my clarinet.
In that case, the action would likely be even better by using a material that is better for springs and a design to fit the size best to use with that material. Saxophones are maybe the bst example of very different actions all with the same type of springs. Good stanless steel springs (as opposed to the more common bad stainless steel springs) might be a good choice. Also nickel-titanium might be even better, but there are many types with different springiness/rigidness so have to find what is best. I have some of those from an orthodontist (they use them for braces). I don't know any maker using nickel-titanium springs though and I don't know for sure how good they would be.
Post Edited (2009-12-18 05:22)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2009-12-18 12:13
White gold is an alloy of gold (75%) and palladium or platinum (25%),
or alternatively it can be gold (75%), nickel (10%), zinc (5%) and palladium (10%). It has the non-tarnishing qualities of gold with higher mechanical strength and less susceptibility to abrasion.
Tony F.
Steve wrote:
Author: stevensfo (---.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it - ISP in Milan, 09 Italy)
Date: 2009-12-16 16:30
-- "The only instruments I know that have solid gold springs (in white gold) are pro quality flutes." --
Chris, assuming you're not writing a Monty Python sketch about a music shop trying to sell plumbing accessories as wind instruments, just what the ^$&*# is white gold?
:-)
Steve
Tony F.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-12-18 13:50
Gordon -
At least on the system Mark uses, a live link can't have a # character in it. The # moves the focus to a place down in the document, rather than the beginning. If you take out the # (and everything after it), the link will at least take the reader to the page, even if not the exact location.
Oh, and Monty Python did have instructions on how to play the flute: "You blow here and move your fingers up and down there." Sounds pretty much like clarinet.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bill
Date: 2009-12-20 22:08
OMG. How funny to click on this thread and see myself quoted. I hope I didn't say "solid gold"!!!
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2009-12-23 02:47
No, Bill, you simply said "gold" without qualification. So I was left to ponder -- gold plated, solid gold, gold colored?
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-12-23 10:28
Gordon -
>> I think berilium copper is used mainly for applications where the spring needs to conduct electricity, &/or be non-sparking, &/or non-magnetic..
It's even used for tools by bomb-disposal guys because of its complete non-magnetism! Its use tends to be particularly specialized these days because of the safety issues associated with processing beryllium (the powdered oxide is nasty) and the availability of hard stainless steels and titanium alloys. But I believe beryllium copper pre-dates both stainless and titanium, and the material does have excellent mechanical properties.
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