 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-06-13 06:22
Hello
I would like to know how many clarinetists (%) use cork pads on the upper joint? I'm not asking how they compare with other pads, etc. which has been written a lot before. I'm interested to know how common are cork pads, mostly for professionals, and especially in many different countries.
I don't know anyone local that has cork pads, but I don't know what pads all local pro players have. I was lately told by an American clarinet repairer " using cork pads on the upper sections of soprano clarinets is preferred by most professionals world-wide" and I'm trying to find out how accurate this is.
Thank you!
Nitai
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hartt
Date: 2007-06-13 06:47
all my clarinets have cork pads on the UJ's. How many?.....too many.
It's not every key........different techs have different views of which keys get cork but, there are 'standard' keys.
corks are usually used on 'water' keys , register key (beveled), throat G# and A, all RH trill keys and possibly the throat F key cup (under the A key) and teh Left pinky C#/G#
When using cork pads, depending on which key, the cork is beveled to allow better dispersion of the air emanating from the tone hole.
Cork will have a tendency to harden and key closing may become noisy.
I fyou are considering use of corks adn no local tech has them, you can send your clarinet to a reliable tech. There are many listed as sponsors here on the BB.
You may want to consider doing a search on here. Type in "cork pads" and read the threads.
regards
dennis
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-06-13 07:13
OK, maybe I was completely unclear in my post. I'm not interested at all to know anything about installing cork pads, reasons to use them, where to get them, etc.
I'm interested only in "statistics" of how many pros use them, in different countries, in every country only comparing with others in that country.
Thanks!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-13 08:03
here in Tokyo, I have seen only cork on the register key. I have never seen any cork pads anyplace else on a repair job here (haven't seen ALL repair jobs either). Generally I see blatter(most) or leather(sometimes).
when I was in NY, more corks were standard, esp on the 'watery' keys.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-13 10:40
Personally I do like to use cork pads on the entire top joint, and also the bottom joint rings and B/F# key - sometimes cork padding down to the Ab/Eb key as well as that does get waterlogged, and leather for the large remaining pads.
But when I do clarinet overhauls for Howarth, I usually do a mix of cork and leather - cork for the speaker key (made conical), G vent, side F#, both Eb/Bb keys and the C#/G# key - and the bottom joint B/F# key.
Buffet Toscas have a high percentage of cork pads, and Leblancs have been increasing the amount of cork pads they use too.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: denner22
Date: 2007-06-13 11:29
I like to use cork pads on upper joint tone-holes. I bevel them to aid in better dispersion of the sound. I like the sense of immediacy in response and am happy to put up with the slight extra noise they can give when closing 
David
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-13 11:43
I noticed the Buffet Tosca's cork pads had rounded edges.
However, I have seen some badly rounded-edged cork pads done by some local 'repairers' which just looked nasty, as if they'd gone at them with the coarsest abrasive on the market.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-06-13 13:29
About 80% of pro clarinets I overhauled had cork on the top and leather pads on the bottom joint installed.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-06-13 14:18
I use them on the left hand joint of my clarinets, and my daughter's, as well.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2007-06-13 14:18)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-13 14:32
If I could get cork pads large enough, I'd cork the lot (and the top keys on my alto and tenor saxes).
My oboe and cor are cork padded throughout - one day my d'amore will be as well.
But getting good quality cork pads in sizes over 16mm isn't easy, if you can even get them at all.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-06-13 18:32
Cork on upper joint and sliver of bottom on six clarinets to include a pair of Wurlitzers. Germans thought I was nuts when they saw the 100Cs.
.........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-13 20:11
I like cork pads due to their precision of action - and they're far more easy to achieve prefect regulation than squishy marshmallow pads.
If they work on oboes, why not on all types (or as many as is possible) of clarinets? It's age-old tradition that gets in the way of recent innovation.
Ever played a Heckelphone? They don't exactly exhibit the firmest of actions! Positive, maybe. But talk about squishy! It felt like the keywork was flexing as the pads had so much give.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-06-13 21:13
-- "But getting good quality cork pads in sizes over 16mm isn't easy, if you can even get them at all." --
But couldn't you make them yourself?
I remember a thread a few years back about how easy it was to make cork pads using 3mm cork sheets, fine sandpaper and some hole punches.
I tried it myself and discovered the hard way just how fast a dremel sander goes through cork, plus a few other things that I won't mention!! Needless to say, I won't be asking for a job with Howarth's. ;-)
Nevertheless, after a steep but thankfully short learning curve, they turned out okay and I was actually suprised at how easy they were to sit on the tone hole correctly. You're right about those 'saggy' felt pads! Perhaps it's the harder surface of the cork that makes them easier to tap into position.
I only did five on the top joint. My largest hole punch was nowhere near as big as 16mm but if you can find one, I don't see why you shouldn't make your own.
Steve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-13 21:49
I've settled on my own synthetics. They have just enough give to compensate for non-perfect beds and are silent, but they're firm enough as not to make the keywork feel squishy. You might have to make the springs on normally closed keys a bit softer, though.
Now I'm going to shop for suitable hole punches. The 10mms are easy to find, but the big 'uns...
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-14 05:12
It is quite uncommon to see cork pads in New Zealand, except on register keys. I have them, but very rarely have a request. I see no particular need to change to them.
I am more likely to change to Omni pads if I make any changes. I suspect they have fewer downsides than cork, and all the advantages.
I rather suspect the prevalence in any neighbourhood depends on the whims and marketing of the local technicians, more than anything else. There is not a huge difference in the way they actually play.
Another issue may be the climate, and how common air conditioning and building heating is. In a warm environment there is far less of a water problem than in cold playing conditions.
Furthermore, Otis not every country that has players playing outside in the rain!
Chris wrote "I like cork pads due to their precision of action - and they're far more easy to achieve prefect regulation than squishy marshmallow pads."
I think that paints an unfair picture. High quality, medium to firm bladder pads could hardly be described as marshmallow, nor squishy. I don't have a problem with getting the regulation reliable.
Sorry to ramble on, Clarnibass!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-06-14 05:54
OK, I have some information on Japan, Germany, New Zealand and USA (and my own country). I guess this thread did become pros/cons of cork (and other) pads.
> But getting good quality cork pads in sizes over
> 16mm isn't easy, if you can even get them at all.
I know Music Center has them, Rigotti has them, and I think Martin Chanu possible has them too. Sizes up to 17mm or even 17.5mm. MC is slow, but Rigotti is not so slow.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-14 07:03
It's not hard to make big cork pads by oneself. Leather punches and a thick sheet of good cork.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-06-14 07:26
It's kind of difficult answering your question natai as I too used to ponder the number of clarinetests that used cork pads. probably what would have worked better would be a visual poll, otherwise one only has to generalize. The truth of the matter is that cork pads are musts to prevent water collection and pad destruction, so it does make sense that professional clarinet players should seek them.
Everyone else is just reinforcing the positives of corks. =)
i think the underlying question is where do you get cork to DIY (which is always fun)
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-06-14 08:24
Thanks.
I understand it could be hard, but I was just trying to find out if the majority of (pro) clarinetists everyone knows use cork pads or not, not really a scientific study. That's because I was told by an American repairer that "most pros world-wide use cork pads on clarinet upper joint" but I don't know anyone local who use them, so I was interested in finding out about other countries.
C2thew, I also have another question for you (or for anyone else who might have an idea). You wrongly spelled my name 'natai'. In many emails I received, especially from people who's first langauge is English (mostly Americans), they also spelled my name this way. I'd say even more people wrongly spelled it this way than not.
I'm wondering if you know why you spelled it this way? When it happened the first couple of times I thought it was just some typo, but it happened so many times it can't be a coincidence. What surprises me, is that it happens in spite of - 1. This exact same mistake happenes so many times. 2. The A and I are not close at all on keyboards, so not a slip. 3. The pronounciation of this spelling is completely different, so not just a different spelling which sounds similar. 4. It always happens that the person spelling it incorrect sees my correct spelling just before, like in this thread.
This is a mystery for me and I would be happy if someone might have an idea why this happens!
Post Edited (2007-06-14 08:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-14 11:06
Perhaps it has something to do with the folowing:
1. I cannot think of any English name starting with "Nit".
2. There are Enmgilsh names beginning with "Nat", eg Nathan, Natalie.
3. A nit is the egg of a head lice, so the word conjures up unpleasant images for Europeans, that they don't readily associate with names.
4. A nit is a colloquial word used for an unintelligent, or stupid, or foolish person, so the word possibly conjures up unpleasant images for Europeans, that they don't readily associate with names.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-14 11:11
Sygardener wrote:
"It's not hard to make big cork pads by oneself. Leather punches and a thick sheet of good cork."
It needs to be better than "good". It has to be excellent.
The only cork of sufficient quality available to us for pads of large diameter is not the normal sheets, but the "shive" cut cork, with the grain parallel to the surface. Even this can be risky to use. Pad cork really should nave NO holes.
I think all the cork suitable for 17+ mm diameter pads is probably used up making the pads that they sell us.
Post Edited (2007-06-14 11:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-14 12:56
I just finished disassembling an old hard rubber Pedler on which all the pads were motheaten.....except the cork register pad which is still in excellent shape. Hi Nitai.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-14 13:24
In all cork pads it's always best to have the grain running parallel to the surface as this prevents heat distortion when using shellac.
If the grain is at an angle or perpendicular, then the pads can warp when the melted shellac is applied, and will have to be ground flat.
Though the typical waterkey corks available off the shelf for brass instruments aren't particularly of good quality and usually have the grain at an angle or perpendicular to the surface - but they are held closed with a strong spring forcing them to seal even though they should as a rule be installed with the same attention as installing and seating any cork pad.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-14 13:32
I have cork only in the reg. key - rest are gore-tex. Had it overhauled some months ago, and then I was given the choice between leather, gore-tex and bladder....nobody mentioned cork.
It's working well, though.
-jane
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-14 13:39
The best thing with cork pads is they can be trimmed to any thickness you like, and are usually supplied thick enough so there's enough depth left when the face is ground smooth removing all the hard lumps or imperfections.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-06-14 13:40
I recently had an overhaul on my instrument by Tom Ridenour. He uses a new synthetic (well, I don't know how NEW it is) cork pad on the uppers that he says outlasts the real cork and doesn't make the noise that corks make. I really like them.
I always have my instruments set up with corks in the upper because they last longer.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-14 23:19
Read under the 'clarinet' heading of page 16 of the following by Benade, highly respected acoustician.
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/documents/Benade-Practical-1985.pdf
I have heard that he later changed some of his advice on this page, but don't know which particular parts he changed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-06-15 12:03
Well, whenever I buy a used clarinet with a cork register key pad, or any other cork pads, I take them off and replace them with bladder pads. The slapping noise cork pads make drives me nuts. I don't mind the much noisier pads on a bigger instrument (alto and contra-alto clarinet, saxophones larger than soprano) because I expect big instruments to make mechanical noises, but I can't stand to hear pop, pop, poppety pop on a soprano clarinet.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-15 12:59
With the very small surface area of tone hole contacting the pad, for soprano clarinet octave vents, there is no more slap here than there is with medium to firm bladder pads on other keys, and usually a lot less.
(Just like you cannot get a slapping sound by whacking a finger TIP into the palm of your hand. )
Besides, the thumb usually controls the speed at which the pad closes, eliminating the possibly of conspicuous slap.
Perhaps the noise is coming from an Unlubricated pivot, oil with insufficient viscosity, or a sloppy pivot.
Granted, these octave vents on a FEW models have a larger surface area on their face, but the cork pad can be shaped to reduce the contact area.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-15 15:51
I agree with Gordon. I have never experienced the slap or popping noise you describe unless I bang my fingers on the keys. Actually, I've been told that cork has properties that can help repel water. Whether that is myth or not, I don't know. But this much I do know, I used to always soak my low G#/altissimo helper key pad on my old Selmer 10G. I replaced that pad with cork and the problem went away. It may not work for everyone, but it worked for me. My cork pads have never developed a leak on my R13 in the 10 years I had this horn.
I like them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-06-15 16:05
I recently had my clarinet overhauled by an excellent repair person here in Boston who has worked for many, many professionals. He replaced my pads with cork as a matter of course, and promised my clarinet would "sing like an angel." I do know that my upper joint pads don't stick like they used to, which may be due to the cork. As for singing like an angel -- well, that's more up to me than my pads, I think...
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-06-15 16:06
Let me amend what I jsut said -- cork on the upper, leather on the lower. Sorry.
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kuteclar
Date: 2007-06-15 22:54
If cork seems to be the most prevalent (most of my UJ is cork, the break key under F3 bladder and a couple Gortex), then where do gortex, Valentino and Straubinger pads fall into? I thought these were the newest pads people were using more in majority now? I need to re-pad my A, and I'm uncertain which types to mix and match.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-16 07:53
How they are installed, and their quality, and attention to the other mechanical infrastructure on the instrument and tone hole edges, is FAR more important than the actual pad type. IMO
Top players are playing on a wide variety of pads.
If you are considering Valentino, they I suggest you add Omni to your list. A new product by Kraus, that I think has the potential for becoming the most successful pad to date.
BTW, I have seen cork pads swell badly, and have seen them split.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-06-17 11:15
>>Perhaps the noise is coming from an Unlubricated pivot, oil with insufficient viscosity, or a sloppy pivot.
>>
I agree that those problems can cause a noise, but that doesn't explain why changing the cork pad to skin, and making *only* that change, got rid of the noise, on three different clarinets (two Buffets and a Leblanc). I bought these instruments for reliable "players" (not as curiosities) and they weren't flea market rescue jobs. One Buffet in A was made in 1931, but the other Buffet in A and a Leblanc in Bb were both made in the 1980s. I bought all three from people who had maintained them in good condition. Nothing needed fixing; I replaced those register key pads only because I didnt like the noise, and I did nothing else. Ergo the pads caused the noise.
One other possibility that may account for other people not hearing noise with cork pads could be the age and type of the cork. The two clarinets made in the 1980s may have sat around unplayed for about ten years before I bought the,. (The original owner had died. I bought the clarinets from his son.) It's possible that the cork hardened. The older Buffet belonged to someone I know, who collects metal clarinets and prefers to play those. He sold this grenadilla Buffet because it was a spare. He may not have been playing it much, and so, in that case as well, the cork may have hardened. It may be that new cork is softer and that regular moistening keeps it softer than old cork that's just been sitting there. I don't know this; I'm guessing.
But for whatever reason, I assure you that those corked register keys did make noise and that the noise came from the cork. It wasn't a loud noise and it probably shouldn't have bugged me, given that I'm used to saxophone keys making much louder noise; it was the *difference* in the sound of the corked key compared to the bladder pad keys that bothered me.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-17 12:12
If I press down the key, then slide my finger off the key, such that it SUDDENLY releases from my finger, and is accelerated, unimpeded, by the spring towards colliding with the tone hole, then there may be significant noise, as there would be with any key for which this is done (and I believe a lot of that sound comes from the hinge). However I think that during normal play, for most players, this is not what happens; the key is lifted in a controlled manner while in contact with the thumb.
Yes, your corks may have hardened for some reason.
And could it be, that through excessive seating through age, and the particular design of the face of the tone hole, that the cork contacted the tone hole face over a significant area? If so, then changing to a new and better shaped piece of cork would probably have had the same result as a bladder pad. So I am still not sure you can blame the cork.
I am particularly conscious of unnecessary sound as keys move and pads slap, but have never noticed, with hundreds if not thousands of cork pads on register keys, that this is a significant issue with a cork pad on the register key.
Cork pads are usually used here so that they can be shaped, so that they presumably reduce the turbulence of the air attempting to pass through the vent, so that they reduce the 'fuzziness' of a throat Bb. This advantage phenomenon is real, on most clarinets.
I suggest the advantages greatly outweigh any disadvantages.
Post Edited (2007-06-17 12:12)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-17 13:00
Depending on the force applied when playing, such as if you slap your fingers down hard or just close them gently, then the pad noise will be determined by those actions.
But pad noise can only be heard up close by the player and will be hidden by what you're playing, only if playing at ppp and slapping your fingers down hard will others around you hear it.
That's why (for example) I do a high A-B trill by playing A (Sp. xxo|ooo) and trilling with LH 1 instead of trilling with (the more logical) LH 2 - it's a much smoother trill as only one tonehole is employed for the trill without any mechanism involved, not two toneholes and the ring key which will have not only pad noise (and all types of pads make noise to some degree) but also some degree of mechanical noise as well.
And to be honest, as clarinettists we have it easy compared to oboists - with all the covered fingerplates that are cork padded (as well as all the mechanism) the potential for making pad and mechanical noise is increased, so having to learn to dicipline yourself to gently close the fingerplates as opposed to slapping them closed is all part of the technique. But as clarinets usually have ring keys, having the rings set up so they're the correct height (for the player's fingers) is important so the pad controlled by the rings closes slightly ahead of the fingers sealing the chimneys.
Since keys with pads were introduced to all woodwinds to control toneholes out of reach or to increase/ease the playability in more than the one natural key and the overall range, there's always been the issues of noise and reliability to contend with. And the perfect solution to eliminating mechanical and pad noise is still way off, and most likely an issue that can't be completely eliminated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-06-17 14:09
I had my Buffet Prestige Eefer re-padded in cork and I REALLY like them. Only the extreme right hand notes are not in cork. I play oboe, d'amore and English horn and all of them are in cork too, so it feels normal to me. In fact I had my old R13 Eefer done in cork yerars agho because I so liked the way they behavedon the oboe family. One of my colleagues did not like the FEEL of my instrument with cork and it does have a ifferent sort of resistance, albeit subtle.
Eefer guy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-17 19:11
Cork isn't everybody's cup of tea. My teacher studied with Gigliotti in Philadelphia, and he told me Gigliotti preferred the standard fish skin pads. I was never told the reason, but it does say that cork doesn't have to be mandatory to have a great horn. I still prefer the cork though.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-17 20:11
Provided pads seal the toneholes well, that's the battle won.
But as for the type of pad used, it's a personal thing - some people like skin pads, some like leather, some like cork, some like synthetic, some like this, some like that or the other, and some like a mixture of all the above.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SavvyClarinet
Date: 2007-06-21 18:12
I got cork pads about a year ago, and I have never regretted it. Although I'm not a professional, I'm a very serious high school clarinetist. I obsess about small details like this, and it works for me. Just like any other aspect of the clarinet, pads are also a matter of personal preference.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-22 04:31
"Provided pads seal the toneholes well, that's the battle won."-ChrisP
There is one thing about using cork that I remeber from a conversation with a NYC repair person. That person always avoided cork as much as possible because of the sound when they get hard. I asked, "does it really make a difference in the hall?" The answer- "No. not in the hall. But in the studio where the mic is 5 inches from the horn, it does make a difference."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
