 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-03-15 00:34
Any suggestions on how to best approach/master the solo in Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe? How can one best work up to playing it at the correct tempo? What recordings/clarinetists best demonstrate this piece?
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2003-03-15 04:00
Slow it down and work it with a metronome. As far as best recording, I would say Cleveland! I think they might only have the Second Suite, but that is where the clarinet solos are...at least the ones I am sure you are talking about. As far as a great recording of the piece as a whole, I like Montreal with Charles Dutoit.
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Author: R13A
Date: 2003-03-15 12:54
hi
wjk..in Peter Hadcock's book, THE WORKING CLARINETIST, the clarinet part is addressed in detail. Mr Hadcock even suggests using a piece of reed wedged between 2 keys to facilitate an awkward (and fast ) fingering. Also addressed is a 'working up' tempo and which notes to stress.
You may be able to locate a copy in a University Music library. If not, it can be ordered thru VanCott, a WW.org sponsor for $40.
regards
dennnis
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Author: vin
Date: 2003-03-15 13:27
That reed "trick" works it in the orchestra, but it's better in an audition to not do it. Things can go wrong and I even know a person who was actually eliminated from audition when it slipped out (very fine player, too, and it was the finals).
All I can say is lock yourself in a room for a long time, practice slower than you can imagine and work it up slowly, page by page. Hadcock has a great section on practicing difficult passages which certainly helps here (as well as comments about how to tape yourself to get the best results) but it is all up to your desire (and patience) to "woodshed" and your methodical practice.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-03-15 14:00
The only "trick" you need is preparation--the slow, persistant and consistant type. Once your fingers learn "the moves", it really isn't as difficult as it looks. I'm not saying that D&C is "easy", but with a focused consciencious regime of careful practice, it isn't "impossible" either.
I had a bassoonist in my WW quintet once that used a closepin to facilitate a particularity hard musical passage (I forget which quintet) and it worked just fine--until one performance when he dropped it on the floor and could not retrieve it in time to use which resulted in a flurry of bumbling incoherent low buzzing sounds until the technical "moment" mercifully passed bye. (at least the audience was amused)
The only "reed trick" you really need to learn and use involves knives and balancing. Good luck with D&C--like the old song says, "slow and easy does it every time."
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-03-15 14:05
Most of the stuff in this part is in the middle and lower register and requires very slow steady practice to get it up to snuff. I generally listen to the Abbaddo Boston recording or go with the Charles Munch record as a reference guide..... work at outlining the best on each group of 32cds at first with an air accent and then return to a pure legato once you have it.
David Dow
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Author: rbell96
Date: 2003-03-15 15:39
I agree with Brandon on the choice of recording:
Daphnis et Chloe
Montreal Symphony Orchestra
Charles Dutoit
Decca Legends
4586052
The CD also contains La Valse and the Pavane pur une infante defunte.
Its a wonderful recording and one of the first digital CD's ever made I believe.
Hope this helps,
Rob
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2003-03-15 18:23
Larry: I am quite certain that orchestra excerpts from Suite 2, which will include the 12 note repeating passage at the start of the second suite. I don't have the part in front of me now, but I know too that the passage that is full of triplets flying by is part of that also. The Eb does have a nice passage in the last section of the piece, and the entire orchestra will use that motif. The sop. clarinets are not excluded from the horror. It IS very difficult, and my memory recalls at least CIM in Cleveland asking it on graduate auditions. It is like the Firebird. You just have to start working on it from day one. There may be solos in the First Suite, but I do not think that orchestras will usually ask for those. To the ear though, I much prefer just listening to the Second Suite.
Brandon
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Author: vin
Date: 2003-03-15 21:29
I'm sure he can answer for himself, but Mr. Liberson knows full well the whole Daphnis part. Brandon, you are right about them being horrible and very difficult (although once you've put in your time its not bad), but most of the licks in the first clarinet part are not really solos at all. Its all background really that link up with the flutes; the only time it is played solo is in audition- why do you think they ask the second clarinet part or the bass clarinet part in auditions- it's not a real solo, it's just really hard and demonstrates technical agility, dynamics, style and rhythm. The real lyrical solos are almost never asked on auditions. The first suite has many more "solos" for the first clarinet. It's such a fun piece regardless and I do enjoy the Abaddo-Boston and Dutoit-Montreal recording.
On a side note, a violinist friend of mine who plays in a British orchestra told me that Andre Previn was conducting and after the bass clarinet solo he stopped the orchestra and looked at the bass clarinetist and said "I didn't know you could play Daphnis on the spoons!"
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Author: Brad
Date: 2003-03-17 16:38
As has been said here already practice VERY VERY Slowly with a metronome. It is critical that the groups of twelve are as legato and even as possible. Once you have been playing it so much you have it memorized, you will know you are getting close!
Even after having learned the part and performing it, I find I need to keep it up by practicing it very slowly from time to time.
I also recommend getting the part as opposed to relying on excerpt books. Although I agree that the Hadcock book is probably the best excerpt book for Daphnes.
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Author: thechosenone
Date: 2006-04-11 03:11
I am working on this excerpt now. One of the best suggestions I have is to learn this piece now!! Not later, even if you're not playing it, but immediately, because it will take you a much longer time (and more pain) if you learn it past 20.
I started taking the patterns in the first mvt in triplets, very very slowly, at quarter = 40. I played the entire pattern, which is repeated three/four times, at least 5-10 times, or until I felt comfortable. Then I did sixteenths, same repetitions, and then sextuplets. Then I increased the metronome by 5 bpm. When I do the sixteenths, I also incorporate dotted rhythms as well. Works really well for me. It's like circuit weight-training, for those of you who lift weights and are into working out.
The important thing is to really speak the throat tones that connect to the clarion, becasue if those notes don't come out cleanly, crossing the brake won't be clean, which is where most of the trouble occurs.
Post Edited (2006-04-11 04:12)
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Author: k_leister
Date: 2006-04-11 04:06
Sony has a DVD that has Leister playing that piece under Karajan. magnificent playing indeed
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-04-11 06:10
Practise the patterns in different rhythms. Having groups of 6 notes gives you plenty of different rhythmic patterns to play around with.
I have never, EVER in my life done this slow repetitive practise which people say is a must. I could pick up my clarinet right now and play "D et C" without mistakes. So it obviously isn't as necessary as people seem to think.
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2006-04-11 07:05
Hmm - "the solo" in Daphnis and Chloe certainly confuses me. Where exactly is this solo? The solos in suite number two are rather short and simple. The harder solos are in the first part of the ballet.
I got an audition packet once that had plenty of cuts from the first part of the ballet, plus the standard excerpts from suite two. On the suite two cuts, I also recommend slow practice as well as shifting rhythms. The key wedging thing I used to do with a quarter, but sometimes it would pop out, so I ended up playing it the hard way.
And Liquorice, if you can simply pull Daphnis out of a folder and play it with no mistakes and never need to do slow practice, you are WAY better than I or just about anyone I know. Incredible!
Post Edited (2006-04-11 07:06)
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Author: donald
Date: 2006-04-11 08:39
re the "key wedging trick"
one friend uses a reed painted black (so that it's less obvious to an audition panel or audience etc)
i find that instead of using something "hard" it is fairly easy to cut a piece of automobile fuel tube so that it wedges under the key- this is far less likely to fall out (in fact, having prepared this a number of times, it never fell out once) and wen you take it out you can drop it on the floor without it making any noise.
i leave one end of the tube untouched, so you have a bigger bit to hold on to, and cut the other end of the tube to a size that will fit under the key being held up.
Last time i played this i was on E flat so didn't need the "trick", but the 1st clarinet hadn't ever performed this piece before and felt under a lot of stress- so i showed him this trick and lent him my piece of tube at the first rehearsal (fortunately egos weren't an issue on this gig). The "new way" took a few minutes at tea break to to master, and the comment was "one less bit to worry about".
but i essentially agree with William- the passage isn't THAT HARD that a good technique shouldn't be able to deal with it....
keep playing the good tunes
donald
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-04-11 09:20
"if you can simply pull Daphnis out of a folder and play it with no mistakes and never need to do slow practice, you are WAY better than I or just about anyone I know. Incredible!"
I can, but I'm not trying to pretend that I'm incredible. I spent many hours in my life practising Daphnis for auditions and concerts. But I never used the much- revered "slow practice" approach. I practised in various rhythmical patterns according to a methodical system. The point that I'm trying to make is that slow and repetitive practice is not the only way.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-04-11 10:07
Hadcock always had the practical solution to those sorts of problems... One of my teachers that studied with him, said that for the solo in the Pines of Rome he would use a matchbook wedged under the touchpiece of the register key to eliminate the grunt tone. My solution was to just not press the key all the way down...but, whatever works for you...
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2006-04-11 15:11
Which solo are you refering to? There are a few but the main one is the cadenza in the '1st suite', it's slightly before the dawn chorus if your performing the whole ballet version. You just need to sit in a room with a metronome and learn the whole thing. I've played the 1st part on many occassions and also the 2nd, in my limited experience that's what you need to do.
I had the chance to play it as part of the LSO sit ins when at the RCM, when you have witnessed Boulez conduct the LSO in this piece all other recordings go out of the window.
Listen to all the recordings and also listen to it live but at the end of the day it's you that will play it and therefore you should do what feels right to you.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: aberkow
Date: 2006-04-11 18:28
I assume you're talking about the opening of the Second Suite. When I practice the opening passages of this piece, I use a variety of techniques. However one that works especially well is to set the metronome at a comfortable tempo (30-40 to start). Then play each group in of twelve in eighths, triplets, sixteenths, and sixes at that tempo. That way you get the feeling of different groups all with the same pulse. Also, I find it much easier to feel like I'm picking my fingers up rather than putting them down in this excerpt. One other thing, as long as you're working on the first part, try the second as well. They're on the same piece of paper, and you never know when you might get called to play it.
Adam B.
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Author: Mark G. Simon
Date: 2006-04-11 20:59
In the E flat part, the last of the 12-tuplet patterns includes an "impossible" fingering from the left pinkie's B to C#. How does one deal with that?
B-F#-G#-D#-F#-C#-D#-B-C#-D#-F#-G#
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Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana--Mediocrates (2nd cent. BC)
Post Edited (2006-04-11 20:59)
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2006-04-11 21:02
Mark,
I slide the left pinky from the B to C# for that. One of the rare occasions that I wish I had a German clarinet.
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Author: libera_clarinet
Date: 2006-04-12 01:56
I just took a bunch of graduate school auditions, so I guess I feel obliged to share my two cents.
Any school I applied to only asked the excerpts from the second suite (the 12's at the beginning and the section from 214-end). I only actually played it once...
As for the "trick," I feel like it's too much of a risk, personally (if you don't mind the opinion of a college senior). I was able to perform the opening passage quite nicely with slow practice and, as many people have suggested, practice rhythms. I like the idea of different groupings; lean on every 4th note (1st, 5th, 9th) and then shift down a note (2nd, 6th, 10th) etc.
Also, for the very first grouping, a few teachers suggested that I hold down my LH C# key for the entire line. It worked quite well!
I hope I've been helpful (and not too repetitive).
-- Matt
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2006-04-12 13:53
Actually one of the things that helped me in the performance but of course not playing at home alone were the parts underlying the rapid fingering passages. Think both the bassoons and the contra had this part and probably some low brass too. When you feel those notes underneath the rapidly fingered passages it definitely helps with your sense of rhythm and timing. Now that I have played it with them I sort of have that in my head and that makes more musical sense of how fast to play them.
When I played this on Eefer the Bb's beside me both said, "I'm glad you're playing that part, not me!". The Eefer part is much harder to hide, especially later in the second suite and it is in wretched key signatures and with impossible fingerings, some requiring sliding across one key to another. However the very lyric solo (listed as oiff stage but we didn't do it like that) earlier in the second suite is quite beautiful. One of the prettier Eefer solos out there. It is a beautiful piece of music as a whole and great fun for the audience too.
Eefer guy
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Author: Mark G. Simon
Date: 2006-04-12 15:39
Jess: "I slide the left pinky from the B to C# for that. One of the rare occasions that I wish I had a German clarinet."
And you can do this with the requisite smoothness at the proper speed?
Is there any one who's tried sliding with the right hand from D# to B?
This is one of those situations where I wish I had a D clarinet.
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana--Mediocrates (2nd cent. BC)
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