 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-04 15:38
Hello
After months of invistigating and speaking with some of the top bass clarinet players and bass clarinet makers/technitians I think I now have very usefull information on bass clarinets. I hope people are interested in reading this long and detailed post. If one of the people in charge here think this information is worth putting somewhere on the website to save it is maybe a good idea.
Ok here we go.
A few months ago I wrote a thread about the problem of the clarion register of bass clarinets. Specifically refering to instruments like the newer Buffets and Selmers which have two register holes - one for notes up to D# and one for E and up.
What I am talking about is not problem with staccato of these notes which a lot of people are having. The specific problem is when playing legato intervals from low register to clarion register - for example from La/A below the staff to Mi/E below the top line of the staff - there is a short 'pff' type sound between the notes and the transition is not as smooth as on soprano clarinet.
Playing a Buffet bass clarinet for a long time I believed all bass clarinets had this problem, since the Buffet is supposed to be one of the top bass clarinets. Until one day I tried to play a Selmer model 37. The Selmer absolutely did not have this problem. The transition was smooth without any 'pff' sound at all! I thought Buffets have the problem and Selmers didn't.
Since then I probably played over ten Buffet 1193 bass clarinets (and one 1183) and three Selmer 35s/37s. I have also played a couple of Selmer Privileges. All Buffets and Selmer Privileges (I'm not 100% sure about the Privileges) had this problem I am describing. The 37s and 35s didn't!
I thought both the keywork and sound of the Buffets was MUCH better compared with the Selmer 37s/35s, so I thought the problem is worth it. When I tried the Privilege and it had the same problem I was surprised. I was sure the problem was the neck angle since that's the only difference I noticed.
I asked people on this and other forums and got mixed answers. Some claimed all bass clarinets have that problem to some degree, while others said they never noticed this problem. I am pretty sure those people haven't tried all the models of bass clarinets since the difference is obvious.
The first who helped was Morrie Backun. He was very nice and tried to help but being almost 20 hours of flight apart from me it was hard to really understand or describe the problem. He asked what mouthpiece I used and when I told him and he agreed that it is a very good one he suggested something might be wrong with the instrument and if I understood correctly from him most bass clarinets need some work to get to their full potential when just arriving from the factory. I asked him about neck angles and he told me about some modification possiblities which might help.
I went to a repairman (the one the philharmic clarinetists go to) and he said there is no problem.
I continued my research by contacting Jean Marc Volta. He is an excellent bass clarinet player (the best classical bass clarinetist I've heard) and is the consultant for Buffet on low clarinets (alto, basset horn, bass). I strongly suggest reading about him here: http://www.buffet-crampon.com/artists.asp?artist=193
Volta's reply was the most helpfull thing on this subject I've heard and was surprised no one could tell me this before. By the way, thank you to all that helped me with translation. Here is what Jean Marc Volta wrote me.
He told me he understand exactly what problem I am talking about, he knows all about it and it is exactly the same for him. He also said he knows the older Selmers (models prior to the Privilege) very well and they indeed don't have this problem (you'll soon see why).
To deal with the problem he said he learned to manage by adapting his mouthpiece and reeds. He said reeds are particularly important and have to be in the correct strength. Reeds too hard and the sound will be saturated and too soft and there will be delay in the attack of the notes. Also the speed and amount of air for playing these intervals have to be very precise.
A solution to the problem is to open the register tube hole a little to 3mm or slightly more. In one case (Harry Sparnaay's bass clarinet) they changed the original register tube to a bigger one and made the hole 4.5mm.
About the Selmers he said they in fact didn't have this problem because they used very large register tubes but from his experience the sound was much too aggressive and the intonation was impossible (and trust me if there is someone who can play in tune it is Jean Marc Volta).
Jean Marc Volta continues to play with the original small tube, because he says the sound is much better this way - much more focused and compact - and also the intonation is much better.
About the angle of the neck Volta says it actually doesn't help with these intervals, and that they have done a lot of research and experiments at Buffet. He does say the sound in general will change a lot with a different angle neck.
I think that the more modern angled neck does have a good effect on the tone, both because I have tried many bass clarinets and found the ones with the more angled neck (Buffets and Selmer Privileges) better sounding than the Selmer 35/37s with regular neck, and because both Buffet (in recent years) and Selmer (just recently) - two leading makers of bass clarinets - have changed to the more angled neck.
I also contacted Hary Sparnaay, which I also heard play live and he is an excellent bass clarinet player!
Here is a quote of what he told me about the bigger register tube hole: "It's better for contemporary music, especially when you play solo pieces, going very fast from the low to the middle register. With the smaller hole it's mostly impossible."
I hope very much that this information is helpfull to anyone as much as it was to me!
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2006-03-04 17:48
volta did widen the tube as much as possible within the boundaries of the original manufacturing , i believe .
He also was talking about old selmer models and not the newer ones to be completely correct.
Just in case the selmer guys would be offended otherwise!! :-)
gr
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2006-03-04 21:14
Clarnebass, I'm just curious if you have ever tried the Leblanc Paris bass clarinet?
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-06 11:30
Buedsma, yes he did have the hole slightly enlarged but from the translations I got he didn't say he had it the maximum possible with the original tube, but only slightly.
About the Selmers, you also didn't see the original questions I sent him and I am pretty sure that he refers to the models before the new Privilege i.e. model 37 and before.
Gandlafe, yes I have played Leblanc bass clarinets - one to low Eb and one to low C. Honestly, I don't really remember what I thought about them since I tried each one for just a few seconds.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2006-03-06 13:54
I play a Buffet 1193-2 and never recall experiencing this problem. Perhaps it is a matter of having a proper mouthpiece/reed combination.
As far as the angle of the neck, I prefer the more angled neck and still tilt the bell of my instrument back to make it even more angled. Any difference in tone, in my opinion, is more likely to be due to the angle the mouthpiece enters one's mouth than due to the actual curvature of the neck.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-06 14:28
Don, please try playing these notes: A below the staff to clarion E (which is simply pressing the register key) fast and legato, you don't hear 'pff' or air sound between them? The E comes out smooth just like a soprano clarinet?
Also try playing relatively fast chromatic the A to E and then Bb to F, B to F# etc. can you play that fast?
Have you tried the Selmer 35 or 37 models?
I forgot to mention that I used the exact same mouthpiece and reed when I compared the Buffet and Selmer.
You are also right, and JM Volta says it too that mouthpiece and reed are particularly important, but he also says that he knows about this problem and he explains exactly what causes it.
If it wasn't clear JM Volta is one of the people who designed this model bass clarinet. Harry Sparnaay is one of the leading bass clarinet soloists in the world and he also agree about this problem and says that "With the smaller hole it's mostly impossible."
I guess you somehow don't have a problem that at least two of the world's best bass clarinetists have.... I'm not being a sinic on purpose I seriously want to know how you avoided this problem!
Don, can you please measure the diameter of the register hole? The regular dimaeter I think is 2.5mm and the bigger one is 3mm or just slightly more. Maybe you somehow got one of the necks with the wider register hole?
Post Edited (2006-03-06 14:49)
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Author: William
Date: 2006-03-06 14:57
Thank you for this posting as I play a Buffet 1193-2 and have experianced some minor difficulty(s) in cleanly playing the ascending intervals that you describe. I am also going to measure my necks register tube, but I must say that I am (otherwise) completely happy with the tone quality and intonation characteristics of my bass just the way it is--what's good enough for JMV is good for me as well.
Maybe some creative tech could come up with register tubes that could be easily interchanged (in seconds??) according to the technical requirements of the music. However, until then, perhaps the best plan is to play the equipement and not let the equipement play you.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-06 16:47
You (the player) may hear and be annoyed by the hissing sound from your register vent, but I'd be willing to bet that the hiss doesn't travel ten feet (or 3 meters) --- so the audience couldn't care less. Try it and report back, please........
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-06 20:25
I've used horns that emitted a "flutey-like" hiss from the register vents, and in exposed passages (American from Paris, say) it has been audible out to the concertmistress at the edge of the orchestra. Probably, like bassoon key clacking, it's of much more import to us the musicians than it is to the audience.
(I have sat in front of bassoon sections that sounded like a bag of bones while playing The Sorcerer's Apprentice. However, once the contra-bassoon started rattling along, the bassoon noise was the least of our problems.)
In that case, it was a matter of not playing that bass clarinet any longer (which was not a problem as by then I had bought my own Selmer model 33.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-07 06:51
David, it is not a hiss sound during the note - it is a short hiss before the note and it causes a short delay when playing legato from low to clarion register. Playing fast the example I wrote above (low A to clarion E, low Bb to clarion F, B to F#, etc.) is basically impossible with the small hole.
Terry, did you also mean a hiss during the notes? Can you give an example of a passage you played that had the hiss?
Thanks.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2006-03-07 09:41
In an ideal world there would be one speaker hole/tube for each chromatic note in the clarion register, the largest size for clarion E and the smallest for clarion C. The issue about placement, size and length of the hole/tube is and has always been a compromise. A too small a tube will most certainly give the described “pff” to the E, especially in loud dynamics and a too big a tube will give an “undertone” to the high C, especially in soft dynamics. It’s all about resistance: playing a ff E with a hard attack will force too much air through a hole that is too small. The contrary occurs when playing a pp high C through a too big a hole, the air pressure might not be enough to make the note speaking the way you want.
It’s always a good investment to customize your instrument to your own requirements and abilities and there are quite a few things you can do with the register tube. I never did anything to my bass, but to my Eb and D clarinets I changed to longer tubes to lower the intonation to the lower clarion and altissimo C# and D with a good result.
Alphie
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2006-03-07 16:33
Sir Thomas Beecham compared the sound of the harpsichord to "skeletons, copulating on a tin roof." Contrabassoons sound like harpsichords, copulating inside a dead elephant.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-07 17:52
Well...
There is the contra bassoon part from the Ninth Symphony. Beethoven must have been writing it for some other kind of instrument, 'cause playing it on a contra doesn't seem to yield the desired effect. Getting those rods and levers to fly like they have to in the Third Movement is an accomplishment, indeed.
(To be fair, I was using an old (1880's or thereabouts) Heckel contra, the straight kind, the one time that I essayed it. It may be as feasible as hell on a "new" paperclip-ish contra. Only played one of them once, and then only for a few moments.)
Regarding my "flute-y" sound experience, I don't recall the piece (probably something from Wagner, since the orchestra in which it was played was big on the works of same), only that I was more worried about a bass to treble clef transposition, and that the sound coming from the bottom register hole on the horn was quite distracting.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-07 20:23
On all my bass clarinets, I radius (flare) the inner rim of the lower (larger) register vent at both the interior and exterior ends of the tube (think of it as pseudo-undercutting) and, perhaps as a consequence of this modification or perhaps from dumb luck, I haven't experienced the phenomena described in the above posts. No hissing, no "pffftt", no appreciable delay in switching registers.
As an old friend used to say, "I'd rather be lucky than good".
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-08 04:45
Terry, when I asked what passage I meant the notes and not the piece, and only referred to bass clarinet and not bassoon. Did the hiss sound you had from the register happen also during the notes or just at the moment of opening the register hole?
David I am only refering to the upper register hole on instruments with two register holes one for D# and down, and one for E and up. Do you have any instruments like that? If you do can you please measure the upper register hole's diameter?
I would like to ask please that the people who said they would measure the register hole please report back here with what they found?
Also anyone else that has a double register bass clarinet can please measure this and report back? I don't mean only Buffet basses, actually other instruments will give me more information.
Thanks.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-03-08 11:30
Clarnibass -- my apologies, I misunderstood your post. All of my basses have the double register vent design you describe. I can measure the diameter of the upper (small) vent, but the other key parameter is the length of the vent (and how much of that protrudes into the bore; not so easy to measure! All I can say is that the bass clarinets I personally play (Kohlerts from the 1940s and 50s) and those that I most frequently work on (Malernes and their many stencil brands) don't have the noise/response problem you describe.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-03-08 14:05
Well, I guess that I'll have to learn to follow your instructions more closely...
The passage was in the area from the Bb over the break up to about F (as it would have had to be to be using the lower of the two register vents (duh!)). The "sound" was an almost flute like noise coming from the LOWER of the two vent openings - not the one up on the neck.
But,recalling the exact notes played at this remove would be (to be fair) a bit much. That was about seven million bass clarinet notes ago (late 1960's or early 1970's), and I don't keep book on same.
As I said, I think that it was something from Wagner, and it was exposed (think wandering motif solo). As the accompaniment was something like a light pitz in the strings, it allowed the added sound to travel a bit, something on the order of twenty feet. As mentioned by someone else above, we probably noticed it on the stage, but it probably didn't travel out to the audience.
Short of pulling the vent tube or of having specialized depth measurement tools, it's going to be damn'd difficult to assess the true length of the vent into the bore, or the diameter of the vent tube at its bore end.
(Note complete absence of any bassoon related materials, this to avoid any further confusion.)
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-08 14:22
Thank you David and Terry.
Terry, I'm sorry if I sounded rude, it is because it is a little difficult for me to write and understand English. I just wanted to make sure if you meant the same thing as me or a hiss during the note, which can be caused for example by the pad being too close to the hole. By measure I meant to measure the hole at the pad end, which I don't think require speical equipment.
David, if you can measure the diameter of the upper vent on your basses I would really appreciate it and please write what bass clarinet the measurement belong to.
Thanks very much.
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