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Author: RichA
Date: 2005-05-19 16:42
I am a 2nd year student using a Buffet R13 and an Eddie Daniels mouthpiece. I am using a 3 1/2 strength reed and was wondering if that's about normal for this stage of my development? My understanding is the higher the strength reed, the crisper the sound and it is easier to reach the higher notes. I genrally practice 6 days a week for 1 to 1 1/2 hours per day.
Appreciate your time and your advise.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-19 17:19
The strength of the reed you use depends on many factors...the type of mouthpiece (how open or closed and the facing), the strength of your embouchure and how you use your air support.
There is no set level of reed you graduate to...for instance, Daniel Bonade played on very soft reeds with a thin tip - this is according to his student whom I studied with...who played on a 5 Vandoreen blue box and Larry Combs 1 mouthpiece. When I studied with him all of his students played on Mp's refaced by him and were encouraged to play on 5 Vandoreens...which for me were always so hard. After I left that teacher, I moved on to another who had studied under Harold Wright...and this person used his old Ched MP and Vandoreen 4's or 5's. So, I bought an M-13 and continued to use Vandoreen 5's...with better success. Then I moved onto a 5RV Lyre and now use 3.75 Gonzales (But I may switch to 3.5).
I came to a point in my studies where I realized I have to play how I am comfortable. Each person's physical makeup is unique...and I don't have much success on hard reeds. And I shouldn't play on a very closed/long faced MP...nor does a very open one work very well for me.
My advice to you...play on a reed strength that you feel comfortable on...where you have the ability to put enough sound into the horn without it closing off the reed (too soft a reed) but keep the tone free blowing (not stuffy on a hard reed). And remember, there are different degrees of strength within a box of reeds labeled 3.5. Some have weak hearts, others too strong. Some tips are too weak...etc. If you feel your reeds aren't supporting you enough in the altissimo...perhaps your reeds are too soft, but also make sure you are supporting and voicing properly. If you are having problems with articulation, perhaps it is the reed, but it could be a number of different situations (tongue placement, air support, embouchure)
The measure of your accomplishments has nothing to do with the number of your reed, or what equipment you play on. If you are currently feeling comfortable in your own skin...that's all that counts.
Best of luck to you...and always keep it fun!
Post Edited (2005-05-19 17:23)
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2005-05-19 22:09
IMHO, as one who has at one time or another over the years played on all sorts of mouthpieces and reed strengths, the above advice on proper reed strength by SueSmith is as good a summary as you are likely to find anywhere.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-05-19 22:16
Agree with Sue and John.
What ever strength that enables you to express yourself comfortably.
Like buying a pair of shoes….
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Author: Slippy Bal-dog
Date: 2005-05-20 17:32
Hi,
I've been playing for 6 months or so and I'm wondering how do you know what is a good strength for yourself? I would think that too hard or too soft, you start to develop habits you'd rather avoid.
Is there some kind of test you can do?
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-05-20 19:43
I speak as someone who has played for four years, not as an expert....
If I play a reed that is too hard for me, the sound will be thin and airy, especially in the lower register. The effect is very obvious.
I choose to play the hardest reed I can play comfortably, before it reaches the point of being too hard. The key word here is "comfortably". If I use a softer reed, I find it difficult to maintain pitch, and the sound quality deteriorates. If the reed is really soft, then I will tend to pinch it shut and get no sound at all. But many good players have deliberately used soft reeds.
As has been said many times, don't be fooled by people who tell you that "Real men use hard reeds."
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-05-20 20:30
Keep going harder (gradually) until you can play with a stable tone, hit altissimo, and keep intonation relatively steady. For a good deal of people, this is in the 3-4 range. After you're comfortable, you can go harder or softer based on personal preference of the effects the reeds have on your playing. I stepped down from 4 to 3.5 (V12) a couple years ago, and have settled comfortably there, though I keep some both harder and softer in my rotation.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Burt
Date: 2005-05-20 21:05
A few more observations:
By using a reed that's too hard, you can reach the altissimo notes in tune with little experience. But you develop bad habits, most notably moving my jaw when I tounged or when I slurred a large interval. It took my clarinet teacher a few years to correct this.
Also, by using a hard reed, the sound is too thin and forced. I have a friend who insists on using hard reeds and has this problem.
The choice of mouthpiece is a factor in what reed strength is best. A wide opening and a short table require a softer reed.
If you are taking lessons, your teacher should be able to help. Otherwise, listen - and observe yourself in a mirror or by video.
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Author: RichA
Date: 2005-05-20 21:15
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond. This is an excellent service and very much appreciated.
Rich
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-05-21 10:53
When you're not thinking about the reed, but rather dynamics and expression you have found the "sweet spot"...
Concentration on numbers is a common misconception about ability, some of my favorite players use a lower 'strength' reed to great effect.
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-05-21 22:02
Dear RichA; Given that the cloth ligature is bad, the reed works to make a sound because the air column going through the chamber has the effect of pushing the reed away from the mpc, back off the table, so it vibrates in protest. Don't let it win. See what happens if your ligature is loose, it won't play. That is what a cloth ligature is like! Use a Bonade ligature, metal with the area of contact about the size of two pencil lines to allow the reed to vibrate freely, but pushed against the reed against the table at those points very firmly. Now look at two mpces with the same facing but different chambers. If the volume in the tip is shallow then that will concentrate the air flow to drive a 3.5 V12 more forcefully. But open up the lower chamber (or the side walls) where it goes into the bore so that the air is even more forceful going through. Whew! Use a Selmer CP100 with a deep tip and baffle, the biggest chamber and the same reed will seem harder mainly because of all the space in the tip -- which might be good if you switch to a softer V12. The tone of the two set ups has a different quality too. How about a 2.5 V12 on the Selmer CP100? It has a long facing and an opening of 1.22mm. A soft reed (for V12s) with lots a air will start the notes without that bend or waver in the attack which sounds so amateurish. What if you have to change embouchure to get the double high B and C? Oh well. More Power to You, Ken Mills
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-05-22 00:21
Ken started with, "Dear RichA; Given that the cloth ligature is bad, the reed works to...." I admit to making it down to, "See what happens if your ligature is loose, it won't play. That is what a cloth ligature is like! Use a Bonade ligature,...."
Rich A, I do not know how much you have been exposed to in order to know for yourself, but that advice right there is based on flawed thinking. I admit that metal ligatures are fine and you would not go wrong with a Bonade ligature. But ligatures made of cloth (i.e. string, leather, etc.) can be fantastic as well.
I have used a cloth ligature since 1984. Here is a link to some of my playing. Nothing great, but you can hear the faulty reasoning in Ken's post there.
Mozart Quintet excerpts here.
Charles Bay mouthpiece, 1987 version of the Rovner ligature and size 4 V12 Vandoren reed.
Zigeunerweisen with band, here.
O'brien Crystal mouthpiece, 2004 version of the Rovner ligature and size 5 V12 Vandoren reed.
Messaien "Abyss of the Birds" here.
Borbeck mouthpiece, 1987 version of the Rovner ligature and size 4 V12 Vandoren reed.
As for reed strength, I agree with what Sue originally posted. You find what works best for you to accomplish what is on the stand in front of you. Only thing I believe I could say about reed strength and sound is that if you go too soft, the altissimo notes will/might suffer.
It is a good idea to learn about the relationships of the mouthpiece construction to reed strengths and cuts.
Good luck.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
Post Edited (2005-05-22 00:30)
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2005-05-23 04:14
Robert,
I don't understand how these Links help to clarify anything other then the fact you play on a rovner lig. Obviously, many people have found success with the rovner, or shoe string, material ligs in general. I used rubber band in 7th grade, luckily i only played klezmer gigs at that point. I didn't realize that i needed a new ligature, as i thought then, and consider to this day, the ligature to be the least important ingredient in sound production. Aside from USA, most countries seem to agree. That is why many people in Europe find the shoe string adequete, and im sure they aren't eager to go spend their hard earned EUROS on ligs.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-05-23 10:43
RodRubber wrote:
> im sure they aren't eager to go spend
> their hard earned EUROS on ligs.
Oh, they are. Just go to any musical instrument show. The Europeans are no slouch when it comes to buying (and inventing) new gadgets.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-05-23 11:14
RodRubber wrote:
> im sure they aren't eager to go spend
> their hard earned EUROS on ligs.
I alone own already ten different ligatures...
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-05-23 12:18
Evan, you said, "Robert, I don't understand how these Links help to clarify anything other then the fact you play on a rovner lig."
I was addressing Ken's position to Rich A:
Quote:
Ken started with, "Dear RichA; Given that the cloth ligature is bad, the reed works to...." I admit to making it down to, "See what happens if your ligature is loose, it won't play. That is what a cloth ligature is like! Use a Bonade ligature,...."
The links were to show that one can play on a "cloth" ligature, as Ken described it, without the results that Ken suggests. You can reread Ken's actual context to see that I did not misconstrue his issue with cloth ligatures. I simply felt it was inaccurate advice to a second year clarinet player coming here to ask about reed strength.
I have placed bold around the specific errors Ken opined and underlined the horrendous suggestion that I intended the links to provide rebuttal to.
Hope that helps.
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
Post Edited (2005-05-23 12:19)
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-05-25 02:45
Dear Mr. Moody, et al; I think that I have the best sound not because of my skill or talent but because I used to be a real shopper and went through reeds and cloth ligatures of all the brands. You are right that hearing is believing. Just name a landmark in San Francisco and I will be there whenever. Nobody can stand up to me on the street there unless they play the trumpet. Metal ligatures make more logical sense, so much so that maybe I can get the company of Otto Link to make one for the clarinet: its points of contact against the reed are automatically self equalizing in their degree of pressure. You want to talk to some sax players? With my power and projection and darker clarinet sound I can push aside the Paul Desmond wanabees. Outside of him I have trouble with treble when I listen to the alto sax. The Best, Ken Mills
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-25 02:59
Wow...
I wonder if half the people on this board play as well as their ego's would lead us to believe.
I play on a Bonade standard - I find the reverse Bonade's stretch too much and eventually pop off in the middle of the most inopportune times. Rovner's loosen up on me...but that's just ME. String ligatures are a surprise, if you've ever fashioned one. Stringing up your effer is LOTS of fun!
One of the best student tones I've ever heard came form a kid playing a string lig...he's pretty phenomenal.
But...if you can't adjust a reed to save your life, a ligature is not your savior.
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-05-25 03:11
If I need a good reed (yes, I do.), I have to adjust them as the reed get broken-in.
In terms of intonation, embouchure effects intonation A LOT!! If I play with too tight or biting embouchure (I do not like to describe biting, but this is the problem which I recently found. I have to fix.), pitches goes high. Also, if I play too hard reed, I tend to tighten my embouchure. So, if I find that the reed is bit hard, I adjust to make it little more responsive so that I do not have tighten the embouchure.
RosewoodClarinet
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-05-25 12:22
First of all a large thank you to SueSmith for comments that cut through the fluff. Second: "Metal ligatures make more logical sense". I just don't agree with that comment from Ken and to go into all the reasons would extend this thread beyond its usefulness.
"Use a reed that you feel comfortable with" means, to me, one that allows you breathe and blow withouth having to struggle with your breathing. Since relative beginners haven't developed their breathing skills and their embouchures a softer reed usually works better for them. The macho mystique of stiff reeds for people who can't manage them is out of date.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2005-05-25 13:02
Just to prove how wrong the theory of 'a harder reed as you become a better clarinet player', lately I've been moving down in reed strengths to MUCH better results - I'm playing on Gonzalez 3's and over the course of the past few weeks, realised they ARE a little hard, I'm not entirely comfortable, so I'm moving down to 2.75. In fact, when I first played Gonzalez, I was using 3.75's...
So just chose something that's comfortable for you, allows you to articulate correctly and phrase nicely, sound good, and breathe well, and then get a ligature that holds the reed on. That's really all it needs to do. Then go practice heaps!
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Author: BlockEyeDan
Date: 2005-05-25 16:18
Another example of how recommended reed strengths are oftentimes disregarded: I use an M13, which according to Vandoren is paired with the hardest reed strength of any of their mouthpieces (3.5+). I use a 3 V12 on it, and my tone and altissimo support are phenomenal. I used to think that there was something wrong with me because I couldn't "hang" with harder reeds, but then I realized that as long as I sounded good and felt comfortable, that was all that mattered.
Thanks all,
Dan
P.S. I use a Rovner 1R Dark lig.
Post Edited (2005-05-25 16:18)
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-05-25 21:47
Dear Dan; Vandoren makes mouthpieces that have the baffle or that wall opposite the window closer to the window than average. Glass mpcs have to be that way too, obviously. But Vandoren was able to come out with the Profile 88 duckbill as an alternative, afterall. My previous discussion is about the chamber's size in relation to the best reed strength on two mpcs of the same facing. I am louder than you. That is my open challenge to the Army guy, Moody. Name the landmark in San Frncisco and the time, and I will be there. My mpc setup is not commercially available but a Vandoren modified in the chamber, too bad for you.
I am Left-wing. That means that I don't stick to tradition, don't call it the C major scale, call it the hey, A natural minor scale. I am serious about harmony theory too. The Best, Ken Mills
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-25 22:29
Ken Mills wrote:
I am louder than you. That is my open
> challenge to the Army guy, Moody. Name the landmark in San
> Frncisco and the time, and I will be there. My mpc setup is
> not commercially available but a Vandoren modified in the
> chamber, too bad for you.
> I am Left-wing. That means that I don't stick to tradition,
> don't call it the C major scale, call it the hey, A natural
> minor scale. I am serious about harmony theory too. The Best,
> Ken Mills
First off...Robert Moody is a pretty good player...I've downloaded his stuff...visited his website. From his posts he seems like a nice guy, who is rather modest in his abilities.
Now Ken, I can grant you the assumption that you may play loud, but does your tone carry? I'd take Harold Wrights "pp" at the back of symphony hall any day...and can guarantee that his sound would carry with more style and tone than yours. Of course, Mr. Wright is no longer with us...and would not be able to meet you on the street corner.
Its not how LOUD you play, but how your tone carries. A centered "pp" will carry further than a centerless "FFF".
And politics has NOTHING to do with being unique, or musicianship. That statement was completely pointless...and I'll assume nothing more than a jab at Mr. Moody who is serving his country.
Post Edited (2005-05-26 02:06)
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Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2005-05-27 22:36
Dear SueSmith; Politics is about the distribution and maintenance of power, and on the job it is about the trade-off between the power of persuasion and the persuasion of power. Good for musicians, huh? I can try the former by being serious about minor key harmony for only a moment. If all the major scales are converted into their relative minors (until you reach the end of the tune on a major triad at least) then the harmony is easy, even for tritone substitution. But it would be a digression in the clarinet forum to say more than if you are improvising in the key of C major then the minor scales available to you are the C,D,E,F,G,A,and B natural and harmonic minor scales to put in between the C major bookends. Try going down in whole steps with the diminished scales of the same root as the minor preceding it: Aminor Adim, then Gminor Gdim, etc. Okay.
The new Selmer CP100 mpc with a 2 1/2 V12 reed might be pretty good in my theory and experience, but you need lots of air like me. That reed is not too soft.
Science can be defined as: the ruthless criticism of all that exists. After all, what would be the point since there is no contradiction in nature (unless the sun reverses direction or something like that)? What a relief! So give me instrumental music without the words about love lost, etc, for inspiration from nature for me. Sincerely, Mr. Science
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Author: DavieCane01
Date: 2005-05-30 03:37
The reed is a simple spring. It closes as a result of both pressure directed against it's lower surface (the one facing inside your mouth) AND the reduced pressure on it's opposite surface (inside the mouthpiece). Can anybody say Bernoulli? :-) If we disregard personal preferences and issues of comfort, a reed needs only to be of sufficient strength to allow it to open and close at the necessary speed in order to properly produce a given note. As one plays higher the reed needs to vibrate faster and, at some point, softer reeds may not be up to this task. That's when you'll begin to get loss of focus and pitch.
So, all things being equal, if your reed can maintain pitch and focus as high as you need to play then it, technically, is the correct strength. And, in my opinion, if you need to err, do so on the side of lighter reeds. Remember, it's all about vibration and a reed that's too hard won't vibrate as well as one that's a bit too soft.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-05-30 12:40
Hey SueSmith - to answer your query about playing as well as our ego, certainly I do... just let me remember things the way they really happened, not the way they were recorded.
As to volume, if I don't sit behind another brassy, out of tune harsh "top player" that can't keep time with the conductor, it will be too soon.
To misquote one of our longtime, local band instructors,
"Give a kid an instrument and ask for them to produce a note... I doubt it will be pleasant, soft or in tune - that takes skill."
PS - If we're going to open the unprovable assertions thread, I'm putting on my muck boots.
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Author: SueSmith
Date: 2005-05-30 18:36
Synonymous Botch wrote:
> Hey SueSmith - to answer your query about playing as well as
> our ego, certainly I do... just let me remember things the way
> they really happened, not the way they were recorded.
>
> As to volume, if I don't sit behind another brassy, out of tune
> harsh "top player" that can't keep time with the conductor, it
> will be too soon.
>
> To misquote one of our longtime, local band instructors,
> "Give a kid an instrument and ask for them to produce a note...
> I doubt it will be pleasant, soft or in tune - that takes
> skill."
>
> PS - If we're going to open the unprovable assertions thread,
> I'm putting on my muck boots.
Certainly, the post of the year!
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-05-30 23:15
Okay then........... To get back to RichA's question, I'll tell you what I've found in a VERY unscientific way. One that most people can probably understand.
Play a good quality reed. I like the Gonzalez FOF's now. A good heart and cut are essential to good, even vibration. Invest in better quality, break them in right and they will last longer.
Play the strength that gives you a nice, warm sound without sounding too thin or too airy. Different for every person, mouthpiece, ligature and clarinet combination. No one can tell you on a BB what size is best. use YOUR ear. Trust your own instincts and private teacher. Listen and experiment with your sound. Different strength...different sound. You have a decent practice schedule going for a second year student. I would love for my second years to be practicing 1-1/12 hours a day.
The band director in this district tells all clarinet players to play on Vandoren 3 1/2's. It doesn't matter their skill level and it drives me crazy. I take them privately and work on it individually but they have usually invested in a box or two of reeds so we have to work them down until the box is gone. Frustrating. Don't do this to yourself just to say you play a stronger strength reed. The kids here do this and it's crazy. As some of the other posters have said, use your ear and good sense and play what's comfortable and what sounds good.
Finally, keep reeds of differering strengths at your disposal for use in different weather situations. I live in the Midwest and we have wild weather conditions at times. The humidity will affect them. Sometimes I need a harder reed for a performance and sometimes a softer reed for better response. I keep 8 performable reeds of different strengths ready at all times.
These are all things that work for me and that I tell my students. I am not so arrogant that I cannot learn from others.....that's why I come on this board. I think most of us feel that way. I've learned a lot from all of you.
Best regards,
Rebecca
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